BridgeWay Station mixed use development-Mauldin, SC

[vicupstate]

1 hour ago, Spero said:

I am really trying to understand how this makes sense and am drawing a blank. He will greedily use his own money instead of asking the city put it up? I’m a small sample size but I get the sense that developers are more popular when they don’t use public money.

But he didn't start out that way. He asked for county money, in fact he wanted  the county to pay for nearly ALL of it except the land, yet when he gets turned down, he builds it all himself anyway!  That shows he never needed the money to start with. He was trying to get the public to pay for something he could profitable pay for himself.    

[gman]

2 hours ago, vicupstate said:

But he didn't start out that way. He asked for county money, in fact he wanted  the county to pay for nearly ALL of it except the land, yet when he gets turned down, he builds it all himself anyway!  That shows he never needed the money to start with. He was trying to get the public to pay for something he could profitable pay for himself.    

I will not say your theory is nuts, but my goodness. Let’s just say it is wrong. He is wealthy, but not wealthy enough to fully fund the project as presented. The project as presented will benefit the public, therefore tax dollars are warranted. 

[GvilleSC]

9 minutes ago, gman said:

I will not say your theory is nuts, but my goodness. Let’s just say it is wrong. He is wealthy, but not wealthy enough to fully fund the project as presented. The project as presented will benefit the public, therefore tax dollars are warranted. 

I think the point is that for any project that may be deemed worthy of public funds, there is a sweet spot for the percentage of each funding source. 100% public money is wrong, but that is not to say that 0 is the correct answer. Perhaps the county's finance committee didn't think the team had enough skin in the funding game? Or, simply that the return in tax revenues from this location would be inadequate for the dollar amount requested. 

Anyhow, IF Mr. Erwin told the county that this could NOT move forward without 'X' amount of public funds, it would mean that the project dies without 'X' amount of public money. However, if he builds the stadium without the requested public funds (or less public funds), then he has made himself out to be a liar and will set a precedent  of skepticism with the County finance committee for the future. 

[vicupstate]

The Bridgeway project ALREADY uses the tax dollars it will generate to pay for the infrastructure. Therefore, there is either limited or no means for the county to 'earn back' its investment in a stadium except the $350k in rent, which is tiny next to the 35 million investment. 

Putting this somewhere else would allow the county and/or the applicable city to at least capture tax revenues from spin-off development to fund the public funds needed to build it.    A TIF would be a very good option to pay for it actually, if the school board would go along.    

 

[Spero]

points for enthusiasm but the whole thing is kind of a non-starter. I don’t think I’m being a cynic by saying that a minor league soccer stadium in Mauldin probably won’t make money. Very few publicly funded major league stadiums in major metros actually make money. It just never really made a whole lot of sense 

[Exile]

1 hour ago, GvilleSC said:

I think the point is that for any project that may be deemed worthy of public funds, there is a sweet spot for the percentage of each funding source. 100% public money is wrong, but that is not to say that 0 is the correct answer. Perhaps the county's finance committee didn't think the team had enough skin in the funding game? Or, simply that the return in tax revenues from this location would be inadequate for the dollar amount requested. 

Anyhow, IF Mr. Erwin told the county that this could NOT move forward without 'X' amount of public funds, it would mean that the project dies without 'X' amount of public money. However, if he builds the stadium without the requested public funds (or less public funds), then he has made himself out to be a liar and will set a precedent  of skepticism with the County finance committee for the future. 

Did he say that he couldn't move forward? Honest question that I don't know the answer to.

If he didn't (theoretically), to ask for public funds might not be substantively different than looking for deep-pocket private investors. It seems to be well-established everywhere that cities or counties want ownership in these kinds of venues. Could it be that it's more Erwin limiting his own risk exposure than looking for free money??

[GvilleSC]

3 minutes ago, Exile said:

Did he say that he couldn't move forward? Honest question that I don't know the answer to.

If he didn't (theoretically), to ask for public funds might not be substantively different than looking for deep-pocket private investors. It seems to be well-established everywhere that cities or counties want ownership in these kinds of venues. Could it be that it's more Erwin limiting his own risk exposure than looking for free money??

I don't know how he presented his request to the County's finance team, and I haven't seen anyone comment on it. But, it's quite clear that the request was not viewed favorably. Of course, he wants to limit his own risk exposure, but that doesn't eliminate a request for free money. Private investors are going to want their cut at the end of the day. Free public money doesn't come with those same strings attached. 

[vicupstate]

This whole thing doesn't seem well thought out. Giving up  a huge section of this Town Center (assuming Gman430 is correct, Sections G,HI, ) that would pay taxes and draw people pretty much 24/7, to instead have a heavily subsidized stadium that would only draw people 40 days a year doesn't make much sense from Mauldin and Gville County's standpoint. Those taxes are paying for a big chunk  of  the infrastructure in this project too.  I think Gman430's point about the loss of G,H,& I would sink to 'sum of the whole' concept of this Town Center. 

  

[bikeoid]

An interesting analysis of the vote 

Quote

The vote was to allow a formal proposal to be presented to the council. But three people decided that they needed to keep this off the table altogether.

Greenville County Council Got It All Wrong

[vicupstate]

42 minutes ago, bikeoid said:

An interesting analysis of the vote 

Greenville County Council Got It All Wrong

What would be some of the events that would use this stadium?  I assume Soccer tournaments, but what is something that isn't Soccer related that would use the facility? 

The other reporting (albeit, very limited) didn't seem to mention that Ervin would be paying a big chunk of the construction costs.  It appeared that it was mostly publicly funded.  What, if any, money was Mauldin putting in?

I would love to know what other sites/partners were considered on this. 

What are the CURRENT Hospitality taxes spent on is another question I have. Obviously those would be cut back if this went forward.  

[Exile]

20 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

Private investors are going to want their cut at the end of the day. Free public money doesn't come with those same strings attached. 

That's my point: he'll only earn a return on what he's invested; other investors, including the government, will get their share.

Maybe Erwin's a saint, maybe he's the opposite. I don't know. But either way, unless there's some cronyism going on here (which, apparently not)--which would implicate the government as much as it would Erwin--the mere fact that he's looking for government participation in an arena where that is pretty much universal doesn't strike me as necessarily greedy or unethical. Or even create the appearance of it.

[vicupstate]

13 minutes ago, Exile said:

That's my point: he'll only earn a return on what he's invested; other investors, including the government, will get their share.

Maybe Erwin's a saint, maybe he's the opposite. I don't know. But either way, unless there's some cronyism going on here (which, apparently not)--which would implicate the government as much as it would Erwin--the mere fact that he's looking for government participation in an arena where that is pretty much universal doesn't strike me as necessarily greedy or unethical. Or even create the appearance of it.

He will earn a return on the ENTIRE investment, regardless of if the government contributes, in fact the less HE puts in, the more his return will be. Not saying that is nefarious but your post was not making sense to me.  

[transplant08]

2 hours ago, bikeoid said:

An interesting analysis of the vote 

Greenville County Council Got It All Wrong

Sorry. Not persuaded. I'd like to attend a game one day, but whole endeavor still seems like a vanity project. I think the County has invested in enough private-public partnerships with Hughes, too.

[rabbit seisin]

Quote

But what about the illustrious Sirrine Stadium? Why couldn’t it be renovated for this purpose? Quite simply, the field dimensions do not meet professional league standards for soccer. Even if that wasn’t the case, the parking situation is a nightmare, the stadium is in really rough shape, and there are already so many events that happen there it could cause issues for scheduling.

To me this is the most intriguing option, and I hope it gets a second look. I wonder if these objections are the author's speculation or if he has insight to the Triumph front office. In any event, they strike me as minor concerns in comparison to the cultural and historic value of the stadium, especially when paired with its proximity to downtown Greenville and the adjacent county square redevelopment.  Presumably a major renovation effort could entail modifications to the existing grandstands to accommodate the required field dimensions.  

The irony is not lost on me that the proposed Bridgeway Station contains ersatz ancient ruins to enhance its appeal, meanwhile an actual historic ruin languishes in our midst awaiting the right investor. 

[gvegascple]

Not that I get a say, my preference of locations for an entertainment venue like this should either be downtown and walkable, or in an area needing revitalization (kind of like how magnate schools are supposed to work).  Mauldin is neither.

[GvilleSC]

22 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

Not that I get a say, my preference of locations for an entertainment venue like this should either be downtown and walkable, or in an area needing revitalization (kind of like how magnate schools are supposed to work).  Mauldin is neither.

100% 

[NewlyUpstate]

What if they led with this project for that "On The Trail" development off Old Buncombe?

[gman430]

7 minutes ago, NewlyUpstate said:

What if they led with this project for that "On The Trail" development off Old Buncombe?

That and the County Square site which are both along the Swamp Rabbit Trail make too much sense. We need put this stadium in the sprawling suburbs.

Edited February 18, 2022 by gman430

[bikeoid]

11 hours ago, gman430 said:

That and the County Square site which are both along the Swamp Rabbit Trail make too much sense. We need put this stadium in the sprawling suburbs.

The proposed stadium would have been on the Swamp Rabbit Trail too.   (of course at the current rate of buildout, it might be 30-40 years until it reaches there!)

[ingvegas]

18 hours ago, rabbit seisin said:

To me this is the most intriguing option, and I hope it gets a second look. I wonder if these objections are the author's speculation or if he has insight to the Triumph front office. In any event, they strike me as minor concerns in comparison to the cultural and historic value of the stadium, especially when paired with its proximity to downtown Greenville and the adjacent county square redevelopment.  Presumably a major renovation effort could entail modifications to the existing grandstands to accommodate the required field dimensions.  

The irony is not lost on me that the proposed Bridgeway Station contains ersatz ancient ruins to enhance its appeal, meanwhile an actual historic ruin languishes in our midst awaiting the right investor. 

Sirrine Stadium, yeah, that's probably not going to happen. Parking. It's the parking, man. The area turns into a cluster even with small-ish High School games. The Greenville FC soccer club couldn't make it work there, either.

Plus, no room to tailgate. No bars or restaurants nearby other than a 35 seat Sidewall across the street. Eventual bars/restaurants will be uphill and over a half mile away at County Square. But you want bars/restaurants closer to the venue.

Why not wait 1 year and propose at the Union Bleachery? The Union Bleachery developer might kick in and assist with the build, and then Erwin wouldn't have to seek corporate welfare from the County. 

21 hours ago, bikeoid said:

An interesting analysis of the vote 

Greenville County Council Got It All Wrong

Judging by the responses on Reddit, the Council did the right thing. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/greenville/comments/sumhac/greenville_county_council_got_it_all_wrong/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

 

[GvilleSC]

1 minute ago, ingvegas said:

Why not wait 1 year and propose at the Union Bleachery? The Union Bleachery developer might kick in and assist with the build, and then Erwin wouldn't have to seek corporate welfare from the County. 

I think Union Bleachery needs to prove itself a little bit first. I'm not convinced that it's going to turn out as planned, but I sure hope it's built as envisioned. 

[vicupstate]

Erwin should seriously consider doing something with the  Stone family on their property.  Create a TIF to pay for infrastructure (which is already being designed, btw) and to contribute toward stadium construction. Maybe work out a deal for local high schools to use it for their highest attendance games.  That might make the school board agree to the TIF too.   

[ingvegas]

Are you talking about the vacant land south of Downtown, just south of new County Square Development, and sandwiched between Haynie and Wakefield Streets / Howe and Church Streets? They could also get the County Square developers involved. 

If so....

Edited February 18, 2022 by ingvegas

[vicupstate]

32 minutes ago, ingvegas said:

Are you talking about the vacant land south of Downtown, just south of new County Square Development, and sandwiched between Haynie and Wakefield Streets / Howe and Church Streets? They could also get the County Square developers involved. 

If so....

The Stone family owns the vast majority of all the land between Augusta and Church below Haynie and also the eastern most part above Haynie Street.  A land planner could determine the best site within that considerable area. Much of the property they don't own is vacant also. It wouldn't be hard at all to have an office or apartment building overlook the soccer field like at Flour Field.     

[GvilleSC]

1 minute ago, vicupstate said:

The Stone family owns the vast majority of all the land between Augusta and Church below Haynie and also the eastern most part above Haynie Street.  A land planner could determine the best site within that considerable area. Much of the property they don't own is vacant also. It wouldn't be hard at all to have an office or apartment building overlook the soccer field like at Flour Field.     

As long as it is in line with the adopted master plan...