Orlando's Hometown National Champions

[Uncommon]

4 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Ah, so many points to make:

LOL.  Why are you so hung up on the '50's?  Was it the frat reference?

UCF needs to be a Toyota/ Lexus in the 1980's-'90's automotive industry to do or be what you're talking about.  But that only works when the competition, like Ford and GM, are putting out poor quality products.  In this fight, Ford and GM are instead putting out big sellers by 2010's standards, so Toyota/ Lexus will more or less end up being a Saturn.  UCF is a Saturn.

You think there's a trend favoring UCF, yet 4-7 UF is now 9-3 with a great coach and in the Top 10 with a great recruiting class in the making...just like that...and it will only get better the more traction Mullen gets.  UCF won't even  come close to matching what Miami or FSU will even do in recruiting this year, as bad as FSU was or disappointing as Miami was.  Why?  Because of their respective brands.  

As for directional schools, you heard of LA Monroe?  That is former NE LA University;  LA Lafayette?  That is former SW LA University Ragin Cajuns.  Directional schools. and the stigma that they are not top tier in their own states, so they change their name to change their perceived "status."

Next is school colors.  UCF doesn't have any; it's black and gold.  At least FSU has maroon (garnet (whatever)), ND has navy blue, UCLA has baby blue, Washington has purple, and BC has maroon.  I feel the same way about Vandy, MO, Purdue, Wake, and GaTech's "colors"  or lack thereof.  At least GaTech has done more with their combo to break out of this category somewhat.  Even USF has a color- green, to compliment the gold- light years better than UCF's.  At least the big P5 schools have real colors:  Crimson & Crème; Orange & Blue; Navy Blue & Maize; Scarlet & Grey; Orange & Purple; Tennessee Orange; etc..., you know the teams.  At least Boise State was blue (and orange) and was memorable.  UCF isn't memorable in that category.

Next is logo.  UCF's current logo has only been around since 2007, when they hired the Orlando Predators' marketing company to design their logo.  Personally, I think that was a big mistake.  Maybe that's why I can't take them seriously.  And that is a big deal in college football.  That uniform and helmet are like the flag- if you keep changing it, then people lose interest, and you lose the "brand." 

UCF will play a school with an awesome uniform and logo in the bowl game.

And Danny White needs to get off his high horse and stop blaming other schools' unwillingness to give UCF a 1 & 1 as to the reason why their SOS stinks and just take the cards they have been dealt; stop holding out for that special managerial job and just get a job- any job,  and bring in some income for your hard working spouse.  A far cry from the 1981 Seminoles' created mantra of "road warriors" that would play "anyone, anywhere, and anytime."  UCF tried that and lost a bunch and now they are "demanding" home and away matchups.   So who the hec does UCF think they are?  Notre Dame is in the midst of a home and away matchup with UGA.  Why?  Because they are two big named schools that stand to gain something from playing each other. 

Nobody stands to gain anything from playing UCF.  Why? Because regardless of record in 2017 & 2018, UCF is nothing more than a 21 year Div. 1-A G5 (or whatever) commuter school, with an 11 year old on campus stadium tradition, with a bad "color" scheme and logo uniform that's also only 11 years old, where only 3 or 4 out of those 11 seasons did they have a good record (against a very weak SOS).

This isn't trash talking.  I'm being a realist about UCF but a lot of you just don't get it or just don't want to get it, and that's fine.

Sorry but most of these points are pretty juvenile. You don’t like the colors? Their logo doesn’t suit your needs? Saturn? These are laughably bad arguments. Feel free to argue legacy all you’d like, but the majority of this post is silly reasoning at best; pure unadulterated drivel at worst.

[jrs2]

12 hours ago, Uncommon said:

Sorry but most of these points are pretty juvenile. You don’t like the colors? Their logo doesn’t suit your needs? Saturn? These are laughably bad arguments. Feel free to argue legacy all you’d like, but the majority of this post is silly reasoning at best; pure unadulterated drivel at worst.

It's all about branding, my friend.  If you went to a P5 school, any major P5 school, and kept tabs on this stuff, you would see what I'm talking about. 

Colors and Logo: It's not "juvenile" in college football to call out a school for having a crappy logo.  It's not "juvenile" to place a focus on that in college football, any more than a company settling on a recognizable logo, like Apple or Microsoft or Toyota or Mercedes. or Sony or McDonald's.  It's called marketing.  It can make you or break you.  Oregon had a horrible uneventful logo and uniform, but then they spearheaded the trend of all these Nike special promo uniforms; they're the ones that had the chrome and yellow helmets with duck wings, with duck wings on their shoulder pads.  Not traditional, but I must say, they were very memorable and short of the notoriety of a high scoring offense, they became very well known just based on that.  That's marketing.  It's not traditional college football, but it worked because it matched their style.

Legacy: Arguing legacy is not an argument; it's a fact of college football.  Take Oregon again:  The difference between UCF and Oregon, as if you didn't know, is that Oregon has been a P5 program for decades- long before UCF was even in Div. 1-A and long before UCF was even called "UCF" and long before UCF had dorms on it's campus.

Saturn:  Yeah, it's a Saturn.  What are you gonna tell me that UCF is a Mercedes?  It's not even a Lexus or Toyota or Chevy.  But the analogy isn't made in a vacuum; rather, it's made in the context of the "competition."  If the competitors are thriving with their brands, then how does UCF expect to compete with or jump them in relevance?  They can't, and neither could Saturn, and that's why it became a failing uneventful brand.

What I am trying to do is to explain to you UCF'ers, that this is how it is and how it's been in college football, and that, just because a cush schedule directional commuter school happens to go undefeated with a very weak SOS , that the NCAA won't and shouldn't change the order of things to accommodate them.  I mean, seriously, Penn State, in year one in the Big Ten went 12-0 and was shut out of the national title game in 1994 because of their weak SOS.  The same thing happened to 2004 Auburn during a down year for the SEC.  If the NCAA wouldn't accommodate those two storied programs, why the hec should they accommodate UCF?

The UCF collective ego is just simply incredible. It's great to have school spirit, but be realistic.   You've been sold a cheap bill of goods and now you're trying to put lipstick on a pig (as far as these issues that I've brought up go), but the chef is still waiting for a cow so he can grill some steaks.  Sorry, folks, no Filet Mignon today, just swine.

It's so funny.  I've met UCF fans post-Daunte and they would have two allegiances; one to UCF in their... schedule and/or conference they were part of, and the other, with a major football school- usually not UF.  Well, hot tip, it ain't UF's fault (or the SEC's fault) UCF didn't become Div. 1-A until 1996. It also isn't UF's fault that USF has outdone UCF in almost every facet of university-dom, especially in football, since their team's very young existence since 1995 or 1996. 

Yeah, that's the black eye on UCF; it's not that UF is the flagship university in Florida.  Rather, it's USF's existence (The Bulls), and you guys can't get over that, because it reminds you of all the failures of all the former UCF AD's, so you lash out at the P5 for all of this "injustice" and mumbo jumbo.  But at the end of the day it's what I've said all along, that UCF was it's own worst enemy and sat around with it's collective thumb up, somewhere, when other schools were making, as Cardi-B says, "money moves," and now UCF wants to bypass the process.

Well, it's probably too late for UCF to make meaningful "money moves" now, because all those available "money moves" have already been made by other schools that understood the process and acted to preserve their football futures.  Don't take my word for it, just ask all the schools that defected from the Big East when UCF was finally given a ticket for a cruise on that sinking ship (which sank).  I'll name them to help you out:  Syracuse, West Virginia, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Pittsburg, Louisville. Did I miss one? 

I don't know how The UCF allowed themselves to get into a business deal like that without asking for assurances that The Big East wouldn't disband, like, immediately.  Yet another example of sleeping at the wheel.  UCF crashed their car, did not have auto insurance, yet they expect the tow truck driver to tow them for free because, they're UCF. 

[AndyPok1]

28 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

It's all about branding, my friend.  If you went to a P5 school, any major P5 school, and kept tabs on this stuff, you would see what I'm talking about. 

I check all of those boxes except for the "see what you're talking about" part.

[aent]

Just now, jrs2 said:

If you went to a P5 school, any major P5 school, and kept tabs on this stuff, you would see what I'm talking about. 

I attended both UCF and UF, so I'm well aware of the situation.

 

Just now, jrs2 said:

Colors and Logo: It's not "juvenile" in college football to call out a school for having a crappy logo.  It's not "juvenile" to place a focus on that in college football, any more than a company settling on a recognizable logo, like Apple or Microsoft or Toyota or Mercedes. or Sony or McDonald's.  It's called marketing.  It can make you or break you.  Oregon had a horrible uneventful logo and uniform, but then they spearheaded the trend of all these Nike special promo uniforms; they're the ones that had the chrome and yellow helmets with duck wings, with duck wings on their shoulder pads.  Not traditional, but I must say, they were very memorable and short of the notoriety of a high scoring offense, they became very well known just based on that.  That's marketing.  It's not traditional college football, but it worked because it matched their style.

If you looked at the marketing from an academic perspective, sure, but saying a school shouldn't qualify for the football national championship because of marketing and colors of their uniforms, which is what your claim comes down to? And plenty of national companies decided they don't want to spend a ton on marketing... Walmart for a very long time had what everyone considered a terrible logo. There are a variety of strategies for success. UCF is trying to do things with the special Nike uniforms as well, UCF did the blacktop basketball court, I don't think marketing is UCF's strong suit (especially the total lack of integration between marketing on the academic side and the athletic side, something universities like UF do much better, and the inconsistent golds between the 2 is a rookie mistake, but that happens at huge companies too)

 

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Legacy: Arguing legacy is not an argument; it's a fact of college football.  Take Oregon again:  The difference between UCF and Oregon, as if you didn't know, is that Oregon has been a P5 program for decades- long before UCF was even in Div. 1-A and long before UCF was even called "UCF" and long before UCF had dorms on it's campus.

 

But if thats how it is, the titling of the championship should be made more clear, or maybe they could award Alabama the "Historical National Championship" for a great history and a good team for the year like its cheerleading or something and UCF the "Athletic National Championship" for being the team no other team could beat.

 

5 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Saturn:  Yeah, it's a Saturn.  What are you gonna tell me that UCF is a Mercedes?  It's not even a Lexus or Toyota or Chevy.  But the analogy isn't made in a vacuum; rather, it's made in the context of the "competition."  If the competitors are thriving with their brands, then how does UCF expect to compete with or jump them in relevance?  They can't, and neither could Saturn, and that's why it became a failing uneventful brand.

The fair comparison for the car industry is UCF is Tesla. There may be a few things that aren't being done right, mistakes on some alignment of panels, the frame may not be built the most efficient way thats leading to a few struggles that others figured out decades ago, but the end product is something desirable, its top of its class. And while GM is sitting there saying for a long time that Tesla is a niche car company, they're not competition to us, there isn't mass market appeal (or at least affordability) for these vehicles, and Ford is claiming nobody wants electric vehicles, Tesla is sitting there proving them wrong. And the equivalent is putting the Tesla next to the Mustang and Corvette on the raceline, and Tesla won the race, but GM and Ford and Chrysler are sitting there claiming Tesla's National Championship doesn't count, as they didn't use gasoline, and not using gasoline isn't fair because thats not tradition, thats not the way its always been done in car racing, etc. If its being categorized, then Telsa needs the label "Fastest National Champ" while the others can enjoy the "Gasoline National Champ" title.

 

15 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

What I am trying to do is to explain to you UCF'ers, that this is how it is and how it's been in college football, and that, just because a cush schedule directional commuter school happens to go undefeated with a very weak SOS , that the NCAA won't and shouldn't change the order of things to accommodate them.  I mean, seriously, Penn State, in year one in the Big Ten went 12-0 and was shut out of the national title game in 1994 because of their weak SOS.  The same thing happened to 2004 Auburn during a down year for the SEC.  If the NCAA wouldn't accommodate those two storied programs, why the hec should they accommodate UCF?

The UCF collective ego is just simply incredible. It's great to have school spirit, but be realistic.   You've been sold a cheap bill of goods and now you're trying to put lipstick on a pig (as far as these issues that I've brought up go), but the chef is still waiting for a cow so he can grill some steaks.  Sorry, folks, no Filet Mignon today, just swine.

It's so funny.  I've met UCF fans post-Daunte and they would have two allegiances; one to UCF in their... schedule and/or conference they were part of, and the other, with a major football school- usually not UF.  Well, hot tip, it ain't UF's fault (or the SEC's fault) UCF didn't become Div. 1-A until 1996. It also isn't UF's fault that USF has outdone UCF in almost every facet of university-dom, especially in football, since their team's very young existence since 1995 or 1996. 

Yeah, that's the black eye on UCF; it's not that UF is the flagship university in Florida.  Rather, it's USF's existence (The Bulls), and you guys can't get over that, because it reminds you of all the failures of all the former UCF AD's, so you lash out at the P5 for all of this "injustice" and mumbo jumbo.  But at the end of the day it's what I've said all along, that UCF was it's own worst enemy and sat around with it's collective thumb up, somewhere, when other schools were making, as Cardi-B says, "money moves," and now UCF wants to bypass the process.

Well, it's probably too late for UCF to make meaningful "money moves" now, because all those available "money moves" have already been made by other schools that understood the process and acted to preserve their football futures.  Don't take my word for it, just ask all the schools that defected from the Big East when UCF was finally given a ticket for a cruise on that sinking ship (which sank).  I'll name them to help you out:  Syracuse, West Virginia, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Pittsburg, Louisville. Did I miss one? 

I don't know how The UCF allowed themselves to get into a business deal like that without asking for assurances that The Big East wouldn't disband, like, immediately.  Yet another example of sleeping at the wheel.  UCF crashed their car, did not have auto insurance, yet they expect the tow truck driver to tow them for free because, they're UCF. 

Yup, these same arguments were made against Tesla. And Tesla is now the most valuable American car company. The good ole boys club hasn't been interested in working with Tesla, nor with UCF. They don't like disruption. Yeah, maybe UCF could have done a little better with the negotiations, but its hard to say. If UCF demanded too much, and the Big East didn't disband, but instead listened to USF and didn't let UCF in because these outsider trying to come in was demanding a GOR or something similar, they'd just be in worse shape. If they get invited into the Big 12, they won't be in a position to demand a guarantee that Texas and OU won't leave, because the Big 12 could go to someone else, or just not expand in response. Its a risk thats probably still worth taking as the Big 12, even if it loses its top 4 teams, is likely still better then what the AAC will be after it loses some teams to the Big 12 that don't say no.

UCF isn't saying give us a NC because we were a good team, we only had 1 or 2 losses, they're saying nobody beat us, period, including the team who beat Alabama and Georgia last year. UCF deserves to get in instead of a team that loses their division, loses their conference, etc... Don't claim Tesla is still welcome to race the other cars, but isn't allowed to win because it isn't taking any gasoline. Thats ridiculous, and thats what you're doing.

[jrs2]

21 hours ago, aent said:

I attended both UCF and UF, so I'm well aware of the situation.

 

If you looked at the marketing from an academic perspective, sure, but saying a school shouldn't qualify for the football national championship because of marketing and colors of their uniforms, which is what your claim comes down to? And plenty of national companies decided they don't want to spend a ton on marketing... Walmart for a very long time had what everyone considered a terrible logo. There are a variety of strategies for success. UCF is trying to do things with the special Nike uniforms as well, UCF did the blacktop basketball court, I don't think marketing is UCF's strong suit (especially the total lack of integration between marketing on the academic side and the athletic side, something universities like UF do much better, and the inconsistent golds between the 2 is a rookie mistake, but that happens at huge companies too)

 

But if thats how it is, the titling of the championship should be made more clear, or maybe they could award Alabama the "Historical National Championship" for a great history and a good team for the year like its cheerleading or something and UCF the "Athletic National Championship" for being the team no other team could beat.

 

The fair comparison for the car industry is UCF is Tesla. There may be a few things that aren't being done right, mistakes on some alignment of panels, the frame may not be built the most efficient way thats leading to a few struggles that others figured out decades ago, but the end product is something desirable, its top of its class. And while GM is sitting there saying for a long time that Tesla is a niche car company, they're not competition to us, there isn't mass market appeal (or at least affordability) for these vehicles, and Ford is claiming nobody wants electric vehicles, Tesla is sitting there proving them wrong. And the equivalent is putting the Tesla next to the Mustang and Corvette on the raceline, and Tesla won the race, but GM and Ford and Chrysler are sitting there claiming Tesla's National Championship doesn't count, as they didn't use gasoline, and not using gasoline isn't fair because thats not tradition, thats not the way its always been done in car racing, etc. If its being categorized, then Telsa needs the label "Fastest National Champ" while the others can enjoy the "Gasoline National Champ" title.

 

Yup, these same arguments were made against Tesla. And Tesla is now the most valuable American car company. The good ole boys club hasn't been interested in working with Tesla, nor with UCF. They don't like disruption. Yeah, maybe UCF could have done a little better with the negotiations, but its hard to say. If UCF demanded too much, and the Big East didn't disband, but instead listened to USF and didn't let UCF in because these outsider trying to come in was demanding a GOR or something similar, they'd just be in worse shape. If they get invited into the Big 12, they won't be in a position to demand a guarantee that Texas and OU won't leave, because the Big 12 could go to someone else, or just not expand in response. Its a risk thats probably still worth taking as the Big 12, even if it loses its top 4 teams, is likely still better then what the AAC will be after it loses some teams to the Big 12 that don't say no.

UCF isn't saying give us a NC because we were a good team, we only had 1 or 2 losses, they're saying nobody beat us, period, including the team who beat Alabama and Georgia last year. UCF deserves to get in instead of a team that loses their division, loses their conference, etc... Don't claim Tesla is still welcome to race the other cars, but isn't allowed to win because it isn't taking any gasoline. Thats ridiculous, and thats what you're doing.

good post.  But at the end of the day, here are the points that I (and the Herbstreits , Finebaums, and about 80 P5 schools of the world (& Notre Dame) and the AP and Coaches who vote in the polls) take issue with, and these are all interrelated:

1.  UCF has a weak SOS and expects their 13-0 to carry more weight than a P5's 12-1 or 11-2 record, against much tougher competition.

2.  UCF fans blame the P5 and the SEC and UF for some insidious plot to keep them down, because they aren't in a P5 conference and that somehow their status is being devalued on purpose (and unjustly) to keep them out of The Playoff.  Be proud of 13-0, but this other stuff is ridiculous.

3.   UCF is hiding behind the whole "we want a 1 for 1 with a top P5 school but they won't give it to us, therefore, we're being kept down," as justification for not taking what you can get and playing on the road.  As a result, they instead push the scenario in my Point#2 above.

4.   UCF has a weak brand regardless of the fact that The UCF has a student enrollment of around 60k.  This is being purposely ignored and so is the low amount of endowments the school gets from alumni.

On your Tesla point, you can't be a Tesla if you play in a 40k seat stadium with a uniform and logo that only dates back to 2007, with only 3-4 good seasons since that time- on the brand issue.  Tesla's outperform Carrera S's from 0-60.  Who is UCF outperforming in the P5?  Maybe they are outperforming the G5 or G6 on the field, but that's it.  Tesla's motors are innovative and advanced because they have no moving parts.  How advanced are UCF's athletic facilities compared to P5 schools?  They don't compare because they don't have the money to go toe to toe.  Even the Akron Zips have a better stadium than UCF does, with a box seating structure that goes endzone to endzone and is roughly 3X the size of what UCF has, with 522 club seats and 38 luxury suites.  UCF doesn't even post that info on the internet.  Why? Because they don't have the money to keep up.  How do you like your 60k student enrollment now, and what good does that do you? Do UCF fans even know this about Akron? Probably not because they're too busy getting high off that Kool-Aid.  This is just another example of the UCF delusion, hence why Scott Frost left so quickly.

So what am I trying to say?  Here's an analogy.  UCF in football is like a panhandler.  The panhandler in this analogy was a slacker back in school who eventually dropped out and found it difficult to make it in the working world, so he  eventually started mooching off of everybody which devolved into coming downtown to panhandle off of workers- who actually did pay attention in school.  I don't know, maybe the right analogy is the GED analogy.  Maybe the slacker went back and got a GED at Herzing and still finds it hard to get a job when going head to head with traditional high school graduates, and wonders why.  He's got a degree just like they do, except he just got his.  This is UCF in football in 2017.

UCF blew it in football when it mattered, to make moves for their football future, but they were content being Div. 1-AA for so many wasted years, with no on-campus stadium.  Then, USF founded their football team and completely outmaneuvered UCF in every way imaginable because UCF was still asleep at the wheel in football.  Maybe I'm giving USF too much credit and I got it all wrong.  USF is a traditional college campus and UCF was still a commuter school, thus acting like one.  Anyway, now, UCF is panhandling or flaunting it's GED to the NCAA because they got lucky with a good coach that looks to have changed the culture at that program, when they should've made those moves decades sooner when those opportunities were afoot to get into a good conference.

I'm not saying don't be a UCF football fan.  All I'm saying is realize why they are where they are today, and be realistic about who and what UCF really is (in football) compared to these other programs.

[spenser1058]

38 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

good post.  But at the end of the day, here are the points that I (and the Herbstreits , Finebaums, and about 80 P5 schools of the world (& Notre Dame) and the AP and Coaches who vote in the polls) take issue with, and these are all interrelated:

1.  UCF has a weak SOS and expects their 13-0 to carry more weight than a P5's 12-1 or 11-2 record, against much tougher competition.

2.  UCF fans blame the P5 and the SEC and UF for some insidious plot to keep them down, because they aren't in a P5 conference and that somehow their status is being devalued on purpose (and unjustly) to keep them out of The Playoff.  Be proud of 13-0, but this other stuff is ridiculous.

3.   UCF is hiding behind the whole "we want a 1 for 1 with a top P5 school but they won't give it to us, therefore, we're being kept down," as justification for not taking what you can get and playing on the road.  As a result, they instead push the scenario in my Point#2 above.

4.   UCF has a weak brand regardless of the fact that The UCF has a student enrollment of around 60k.  This is being purposely ignored and so is the low amount of endowments the school gets from alumni.

On your Tesla point, you can't be a Tesla if you play in a 40k seat stadium with a uniform and logo that only dates back to 2007, with only 3-4 good seasons since that time- on the brand issue.  Tesla's outperform Carrera S's from 0-60.  Who is UCF outperforming in the P5?  Maybe they are outperforming the G5 or G6 on the field, but that's it.  Tesla's motors are innovative and advanced because they have no moving parts.  How advanced are UCF's athletic facilities compared to P5 schools?  They don't compare because they don't have the money to go toe to toe.  Even the Akron Zips have a better stadium than UCF does, with a box seating structure that goes endzone to endzone and is roughly 3X the size of what UCF has, with 522 club seats and 38 luxury suites.  UCF doesn't even post that info on the internet.  Why? Because they don't have the money to keep up.  How do you like your 60k student enrollment now, and what good does that do you? Do UCF fans even know this about Akron? Probably not because they're too busy getting high off that Kool-Aid.  This is just another example of the UCF delusion, hence why Scott Frost left so quickly.

So what am I trying to say?  Here's an analogy.  UCF in football is like a panhandler.  The panhandler in this analogy was a slacker back in school who eventually dropped out and found it difficult to make it in the working world, so he  eventually started mooching off of everybody which devolved into coming downtown to panhandle off of workers- who actually did pay attention in school.  I don't know, maybe the right analogy is the GED analogy.  Maybe the slacker went back and got a GED at Herzing and still finds it hard to get a job when going head to head with traditional high school graduates, and wonders why.  He's got a degree just like they do, except he just got his.  This is UCF in football in 2017.

UCF blew it in football when it mattered, to make moves for their football future, but they were content being Div. 1-AA for so many wasted years, with no on-campus stadium.  Then, USF founded their football team and completely outmaneuvered UCF in every way imaginable because UCF was still asleep at the wheel in football.  Maybe I'm giving USF too much credit and I got it all wrong.  USF is a traditional college campus and UCF was still a commuter school, thus acting like one.  Anyway, now, UCF is panhandling or flaunting it's GED to the NCAA because they got lucky with a good coach that looks to have changed the culture at that program, when they should've made those moves decades sooner when those opportunities were afoot to get into a good conference.

I'm not saying don't be a UCF football fan.  All I'm saying is realize why they are where they are today, and be realistic about who and what UCF really is (in football) compared to these other programs.

Ummm, if you read the coverage in the Tampa Bay Times every day (as I do) about USF, you'd know they are in total envy of UCF as their program is falling apart at the moment. I'm sure they'll get it together for many of the same reasons as UCF, but I'm afraid, while some of your comments may once have been valid, they are no longer. The salient point is where UCF is today and that is that it's arguably the best known G5 school in the FBS. Just as Barack Obama was encouraged to run for president in 2008 even though he was still green because his moment was here and it might well have passed if he had waited, the same is true of UCF football today. I'd take our stock over any other similar program. Further, as is all the buzz right now, CFP expansion is now being taken seriously again in no small part because of what happened to UCF and our response.

Oh, and most importantly, UCF is STILL the highest ranked program in the state. That, I suspect, is the basis of most of your angst.

Edited December 14, 2018 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

19 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Ummm, if you read the coverage in the Tampa Bay Times every day (as I do) about USF, you'd know they are in total envy of UCF as their program is falling apart at the moment. I'm sure they'll get it together for many of the same reasons as UCF, but I'm afraid, while some of your comments may once have been valid, they are no longer. The salient point is where UCF today and that is that it's arguably the best known G5 school in the FBS. Just as Barack Obama was encouraged to run for president in 2008 even though he was still green because his moment was here and it might well have passed if he had waited, the same is true of UCF football today. I'd take our stock over any other similar program. Further, as is all the buzz right now, CFP expansion is now being taken seriously again in no small part because of what happened to UCF and our response.

Oh, and most importantly, UCF is STILL the highest ranked program in the state. That, I suspect, is the basis of most of your angst.

Actually...no, and I'll explain:

USF's major blunder was firing Leavitt.  Just like with Tennessee firing Fulmer.  UCF's blunder was hiring someone who lied on his resume to Notre Dame, but then they lucked out with Frost.

Actually, it's not (about my "angst").  UF is 9-3 and was ranked right behind a 12-0 undefeated team, UCF, but now Washington at 10-3 is ranked right behind UCF, still, with 3 losses.  Right behind them? How can this be?  This shows you just how weak of an SOS UCF must have to be only 1 place better than two consecutive 3-loss teams in the rankings (there's actually two more teams with 3 losses right behind UF).   I'm happy about that because it exposes to the novices who get dazzled by a 12-0 record, that it is a hollow 12-0 record,, and when they ask the question why, they discover that it has to do with SOS.  That is actually damning for UCF also because there are four other 1 and 2 loss teams ahead of UCF in the same poll.  So before people say that UCF is the best team in the state, they look at the polls and the records of the Top 10 teams, and they wake up and realize that UCF's 12-0 is weak and means nothing (in that comparison).  It also shows recruits that they are not playing in major rivalry games with the P5, which is bad for recruiting.

You make good points, but here is another analogy about what UCF is in football.  Pretty Woman (1990).  I'll explain.  Vivian went to the polo match dressed in St. John clothing with expensive jewelry, hat, and shoes, mixing and mingling with actual aristocrats (this analogy is gonna piss you off, I think).  On the surface, she looked like an aristocrat.  Talk to her and watch her eat, and the façade gets exposed.  In the end, we all knew that she was nothing more than a street corner prostitute dressed in nice clothing.  That's UCF, and the nice clothing is their 13-0 and 12-0 records.  Sure, on the surface you say, wow! But when you do a little digging, you see the reality.   They aren't a panhandler or a slacker as I posted above.  They are a street corner prostitute parading like an aristocrat with their 13-0 and 12-0 records.

Wow.  This week's Colley Bias Free Matrix Poll (UCF's national title giver) shows UCF with an SOS of #96.  I gave them too much credit; I thought they were in the 70's.  Wow, every team in that poll with an abnormally weak SOS hails from the G6 (or G5 or whatever).  No. 62 FSU is the highest ranked 5-7 team because their SOS is #4.  However, UCF's final opponent, No. 72 USF, was 7-5, but their SOS was #109.  No. 61 8-5 Memphis has a SOS of #112.  No.37 8-5 Pitt, UCF's best win, had a SOS of #2, so, way to go, UCF!  You beat the team with the #2 toughest schedule.  Last year you beat the team that beat Alabama and Georgia, but then lost to Georgia, who then lost to Alabama, for the national title.

This is why people like myself have angst or scorn towards UCF, and not because their 12-0 team is ranked only two spots ahead of my 3-loss team, which record is not nearly good enough to get them into The Playoff and ranked ahead of four other 1 and 2 loss teams, by the same polling service that ranked them No.1 last year- a No.1 ranking, which btw, they wouldn't have gotten had 1-loss UGA beaten 1-loss Bama in that game.

[jrs2]

In continuation from my above post...

Wait a minute...hold on!

Newsflash...!

This just in...!

Oh, wow, you all know about the 2 for 1 offer that UF made to UCF, you know, the same one that Danny White scoffed at pompously? 

So...guess who else got the same offer from UF, and guess who jumped at the opportunity and now has a 2 for 1 versus UF over the next few years to boost their SOS?

I’ll give you UCF’ers a three letter hint and see if you can guess it:

 The first letter is ‘U”...

Anyone? 

The second letter is “S”...

Anyone? No?

And, lastly, the third letter is “F”...

Still no takers?  Oh wait...

So, what does this mean for The UCF?  Well, I think the offer is still on the table, but until they play ball, like their much more astute counterparts (in entity category only), they will still be what I referenced in my prior post.

So who’s laughing now?  And before you start pointing fingers at me, point them towards Tampa; Fletcher Rd to be precise, because UCF just got outmaneuvered yet again by USF and I had nothing to do with it, unfortunately.

Man, that’s like that proverb about barking dogs...in that, they say don’t fear the barking dog, fear the one that’s silent because that’s the one that’s gonna bite you.  AD Danny does all that lip service, makes all that noise, thinking he’s got something, and at the end of the day, USF steps to the plate and says “STFU, Danny Boy, you don’t speak for us, so step aside because we got money moves to make” (STFU = shut the f*ck up).

Remember that episode of Southpark where John Edward was crowned the biggest douchebag in the universe (whereby beating out an actual sentient life form that was in fact a living douchebag)?  Y’all remember that brilliant episode, right?  

I think John Edward just lost his crown.

A lesson, indeed, but not necessarily one that was learned.  Charge On!

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

In continuation from my above post...

Wait a minute...hold on!

Newsflash...!

This just in...!

Oh, wow, you all know about the 2 for 1 offer that UF made to UCF, you know, the same one that Danny White scoffed at pompously? 

So...guess who else got the same offer from UF, and guess who jumped at the opportunity and now has a 2 for 1 versus UF over the next few years to boost their SOS?

I’ll give you UCF’ers a three letter hint and see if you can guess it:

 The first letter is ‘U”...

Anyone? 

The second letter is “S”...

Anyone? No?

And, lastly, the third letter is “F”...

Still no takers?  Oh wait...

So, what does this mean for The UCF?  Well, I think the offer is still on the table, but until they play ball, like their much more astute counterparts (in entity category only), they will still be what I referenced in my prior post.

So who’s laughing now?  And before you start pointing fingers at me, point them towards Tampa; Fletcher Rd to be precise, because UCF just got outmaneuvered yet again by USF and I had nothing to do with it, unfortunately.

Man, that’s like that proverb about barking dogs...in that, they say don’t fear the barking dog, fear the one that’s silent because that’s the one that’s gonna bite you.  AD Danny does all that lip service, makes all that noise, thinking he’s got something, and at the end of the day, USF steps to the plate and says “STFU, Danny Boy, you don’t speak for us, so step aside because we got money moves to make” (STFU = shut the f*ck up).

Remember that episode of Southpark where John Edward was crowned the biggest douchebag in the universe (whereby beating out an actual sentient life form that was in fact a living douchebag)?  Y’all remember that brilliant episode, right?  

I think John Edward just lost his crown.

A lesson, indeed, but not necessarily one that was learned.  Charge On!

USF got that offer before UCF (weeks ago). They accepted it because of the current state of disarray of USF's program. Danny White is aware our attendance and situation is running head of USF currently which is why he is insisting on home and home. Florida is aware they're more likely to not get beaten by USF and Tampa is also bigger for recruiting than Orlando for the Gators. Sorry, but this is old news.

[jrs2]

5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

USF got that offer before UCF (weeks ago). They accepted it because of the current state of disarray of USF's program. Danny White is aware our attendance and situation is running head of USF currently which is why he is insisting on home and home. Florida is aware they're more likely to not get beaten by USF and Tampa is also bigger for recruiting than Orlando for the Gators. Sorry, but this is old news.

They accepted it because they’re smart.  USF’s attendance situation is by no means a barometer by which to gage your own attendance situation (38.5k vs 42k?).  That’s like grading on a curve in a classroom full of idiots; it only proves that you’re the smartest of that particular bunch.  

Um, the offer to UCF is still on the table, so there is no ducking of UCF in favor of USF.

IF this is old news, and UCF still hasn’t acted, then what does that tell you about UCF’s decision making?

I’m waiting earnestly for the 2 for 1 offer from Nebraska...

[spenser1058]

And yet UCF is STILL the highest ranked program in Florida despite their supposed “poor” decision making. I’ll trust Danny White, whose decisions thus far have run circles around those (wanna talk about coach selections over the past decade? Danny’s record is stellar compared to the rest of the state.)

If Danny decides to take a 2 and 1 against a lesser ranked team, more power to him. 

[aent]

On 12/14/2018 at 11:19 AM, jrs2 said:

good post.  But at the end of the day, here are the points that I (and the Herbstreits , Finebaums, and about 80 P5 schools of the world (& Notre Dame) and the AP and Coaches who vote in the polls) take issue with, and these are all interrelated:

1.  UCF has a weak SOS and expects their 13-0 to carry more weight than a P5's 12-1 or 11-2 record, against much tougher competition.

Except if you go back one year, UCF had the same number of games vs top 25 opponents as those who made the CFP invitational, last year UCF's SOS was just as good, it was only the "conference label" that wasn't. And the argument last year because of that was its a fluke, lets see if UCF could repeat it this year, if they win 25 straight games, obviously they'll get in. Yeah, this year UCF's SOS is a bit weaker, thats something beyond UCF's control, but last year it was as strong (hence them ending up #1 in a national championship selector poll).

 

On 12/14/2018 at 11:19 AM, jrs2 said:

2.  UCF fans blame the P5 and the SEC and UF for some insidious plot to keep them down, because they aren't in a P5 conference and that somehow their status is being devalued on purpose (and unjustly) to keep them out of The Playoff.  Be proud of 13-0, but this other stuff is ridiculous.

3.   UCF is hiding behind the whole "we want a 1 for 1 with a top P5 school but they won't give it to us, therefore, we're being kept down," as justification for not taking what you can get and playing on the road.  As a result, they instead push the scenario in my Point#2 above.

4.   UCF has a weak brand regardless of the fact that The UCF has a student enrollment of around 60k.  This is being purposely ignored and so is the low amount of endowments the school gets from alumni.

The P5 no doubt's goal is to promote itself, and keep everyone else down, thats on purpose. I think few doubt that. The argument from those like the Herbstreits is that that goal of the P5 is successful, regardless of on the field performance. The same thing happens in the car industry, the car manufacturers claim that having a dealer network owned by third parties is better so thats all that should be allowed, because thats how they're setup, they don't want to change it, even though Tesla is sitting there demonstrating they have their own model which appears better to a whole lot of people. And the "thats the way its always done" and "it makes buying cars a local thing" argument hasn't worked as justification to fight against Tesla doing what they're doing. And its ridiculous when the government won't let them try their own manufacturer owned service and sales center model.

On 12/14/2018 at 11:19 AM, jrs2 said:

On your Tesla point, you can't be a Tesla if you play in a 40k seat stadium with a uniform and logo that only dates back to 2007, with only 3-4 good seasons since that time- on the brand issue. 

Yeah, errm, about that, I guess you aren't too aware about Tesla and its history... they picked their colors and logos in the mid-2000s as well. They've only had a couple of good quarters as far as making a profit. And even there sales numbers have only been good for a short little while, very recent.

 

On 12/14/2018 at 11:19 AM, jrs2 said:

Who is UCF outperforming in the P5? 

Oooh, oooh, I know the answer to that one!!! I KNOW!!! EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN THE P5!!! I guess just like you were not have been aware that Tesla picked their logo and colors in the 2000s, you might not be aware, but UCF was literally the ONLY undefeated team in the entire country in all of NCAA Division I Football last year, outperforming every single P5 and G5 and Independent team on the field! No other team did that! And this year, again no team has showed they're better then UCF, they've won versus every single one. AGAIN, 25 straight games. This year, so far, there are still 4 undefeated teams (of which, again, UCF is one), so we don't know who is the best yet for sure, but if UCF wins their next game, they'll show that they've outperformed everyone in the country for the second consecutive year, this time with one other team being undefeated sharing that title (but no one with it being 26 in a row).

 

On your USF taking the 2-for-1 point, USF is in a very different situation. They haven't won any national championships or even conference championships, they aren't ranked, they don't have their own stadium, etc. UCF already is at a disadvantage getting much less guaranteed money from the conference and media rights deal, they depend on stadium revenue for their success. USF, without a stadium, has to give up that money in rental fees, so unlike UCF, USF isn't actually giving up $2 million per game to play UF in a 2-for-1. Infact, as they make more money from ticket sales, and there stadium is typically half empty, USF stands to make more then normal on their home game as it really will be a neutral site game for UF, half full of Gator fans (just as it was when they played UCF, it was half Knights), they also avoid having to pay rental to the stadium for a game, so they aren't losing millions by taking that deal. And just about everyone agrees UCF is a better team, better facilities, better all around then USF.

Also, why do the P5 teams need an extra home game, often vs literally worst of the division teams like the Citadel and Georgia Southern? Why can't they play an equal number of home and away games? Why do they need an extra advantage? Why does every single OOC that isn't forced upon them have to be vs a bottom dweller played at home for all of the "top" schools? 

[spenser1058]

Add Notre Dame to the list of those ready for 8 teams in the CFP :

Charge On!

https://es.pn/2UHiZkq

From ESPN 

Meanwhile, former ‘Nole great Danny Kanell is with us on playing the Gators:

https://247sports.com/college/florida/Article/Florida-Gators-UCF-Knights-Danny-Kanell-126384783/Amp/

Charge On!

[spenser1058]

What’s interesting in this column from Bleacher Report about automatic qualifiers for an 8-team CFP is that while he makes fun of teams like Pitt or Utah that could pop up in such a scenario, it’s almost a given that UCF would belong in that case.

That’s a huge change for us and that difference in coverage where UCF is getting respect piece by piece is amazing.

That’s the subtle part of this jrs2 seems to be missing. Of course, that willful dismissal comes mostly from SEC precincts so jrs is admittedly right there with his tribe.

Of course, that leads to the question, what in the world is the invincible SEC so fearful of?

I can only suppose it’s the fact that when we have played SEC teams in bowls in the past decade (Georgia in the Liberty Bowl and Auburn in the Peach, not to mention non-SEC team Baylor in the Fiesta), we seem to win.

Are the folks in the SEC concerned it could happen again with LSU, historically one of the league’s powerhouses? Could it be that, once Saban’s ‘Bama teams are taken out of the equation, the SEC isn’t really all that unstoppable? Should we pull off the win Jan. 1 (interestingly, we’re only down by 7 where we were under by 10 before last year’s Peach Bowl against Auburn), the SEC is going to have to do some soul-searching. As jrs2’s launches into nostalgia have shown, the future seems to scare them to death. 

Meanwhile, we just say, Charge On! The future for the Knights looks brighter than ever.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2810482-8-team-playoff-is-enticing-but-automatic-qualifiers-are-a-horrible-idea.amp.html

Edited December 15, 2018 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Fresno State from the G5 just beat Arizona State from the Pac 12 in the Las Vegas Bowl.

G5 teams can’t beat P5 teams, right? Someone obviously cheated!

[aent]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2810482-8-team-playoff-is-enticing-but-automatic-qualifiers-are-a-horrible-idea.amp.html

I gotta disagree with that article. To me, it just makes little sense you can lose your division, lose your conference, and then get in the playoffs over someone who didn't lose anything. I'm fine if conferences want to change how they decide who plays in their championship games, if a conference says 2 highest ranked teams play, then they should get in, if they want the divisions where there is generally clear head to head matchups, thats a choice for the conferences.  I vote for 8 team playoff, all P5 conference champs, best G5 conference champ, 2 remaining games have play in games, where any team that lost a conference championship is disqualified from those games. Ultimately a 16 team playoff by adding only 1 game per team. That should stop the arguments.

[spenser1058]

Just now, aent said:

I gotta disagree with that article. To me, it just makes little sense you can lose your division, lose your conference, and then get in the playoffs over someone who didn't lose anything. I'm fine if conferences want to change how they decide who plays in their championship games, if a conference says 2 highest ranked teams play, then they should get in, if they want the divisions where there is generally clear head to head matchups, thats a choice for the conferences.  I vote for 8 team playoff, all P5 conference champs, best G5 conference champ, 2 remaining games have play in games, where any team that lost a conference championship is disqualified from those games. Ultimately a 16 team playoff by adding only 1 game per team. That should stop the arguments.

I agree - I like conference championships as well and the SEC has a valid point that their AL-GA game this year blew the doors off ratings wise. I mostly just posted it for the matter of fact way he just wrote that UCF belonged in the mix.

[spenser1058]

Outgoing Georgia Tech coach Paul Johnson weighs in for an 8-team CFP:

https://www.ajc.com/sports/college/paul-johnson-thoughts-cfp-expansion-being-committee/zWKHWtFk0k7TRP0vDJ6MCK/amp.html

From the Atlanta J-C (“covers Dixie like the dew” or “covers the doo in Dixie” - whichever you prefer...)

[spenser1058]

Here’s someone who likes the current 4-team CFP but who acknowledges UCF has the valid claim for an expansion to 6.

Again , the striking thing is the author dissing other P5 schools even as he concedes UCF’s point.

Bottom line: the discussion is shifting and they’re talking about UCF as worthy of big boy pants.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/an-eight-team-playoff-would-be-an-unnecessary-cash-grab/

From CBS Sports 

[spenser1058]

Bianchi at the Sentinel does a good job summing up why neither UF or UCF are likely to move past their current impasse and how hard it’s getting for Danny White to schedule P5 home-and-homes.

As the new guy on the block, the assumption is White will have to give in.

There’s another way, though. It requires the AAC to keep improving and making their conference schedule compelling enough they don’t need to schedule teams from the P5. (The conference may also have to be rejiggered to welcome programs like UAB or the Mountain West powerhouses.)

Meanwhile, the Gators have to figure out how to keep fans driving 100-200 miles when half their home schedule is played against cupcake teams.

It appears both sides have something to gain from each other, just not yet.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/open-mike/os-sp-gators-ucf-schedule-series-danny-white-scott-stricklin-20181215-story,amp.html

 

[spenser1058]

Josh Heupel is one of three finalists for AP Coach of the Year along with Nick Saban and Brian Kelly. Winner to come Monday.

Charge On!

From CBS Sports 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/heupel-one-of-three-finalists-for-ap-coach-of-the-year/

[spenser1058]

The Hatters head back across the river a little grumpy after our Knights came out on top at CFE Arena.

Final Score: UCF 90 Stetson 65

UCF is now 9-2 on the season.

Charge On!

[spenser1058]

Danny White calls on the Gators to help fix a “broken system”:

(Includes timeline and e mail texts via a public records request:)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/open-mike/os-sp-ucf-gators-danny-white-scott-stricklin-college-football-playoff-20181216-story.html

From the Sentinel 

[jrs2]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 3:09 PM, spenser1058 said:

Add Notre Dame to the list of those ready for 8 teams in the CFP :

Charge On!

https://es.pn/2UHiZkq

From ESPN 

Meanwhile, former ‘Nole great Danny Kanell is with us on playing the Gators:

https://247sports.com/college/florida/Article/Florida-Gators-UCF-Knights-Danny-Kanell-126384783/Amp/

Charge On!

Notre Dame is ready for an 8-team playoff because they know they got lucky this year and got in only because of an undefeated record, otherwise, UGA would've gotten in, in their place; them or the Pac-10 winner (they had an off year in 2018).  

Danny Kanell can Identify with UCF and their cush schedule because the FSU teams he played for were notorious for having an "easy" path to a national title berth in the '90's.

23 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Bianchi at the Sentinel does a good job summing up why neither UF or UCF are likely to move past their current impasse and how hard it’s getting for Danny White to schedule P5 home-and-homes.

As the new guy on the block, the assumption is White will have to give in.

There’s another way, though. It requires the AAC to keep improving and making their conference schedule compelling enough they don’t need to schedule teams from the P5. (The conference may also have to be rejiggered to welcome programs like UAB or the Mountain West powerhouses.)

Meanwhile, the Gators have to figure out how to keep fans driving 100-200 miles when half their home schedule is played against cupcake teams.

It appears both sides have something to gain from each other, just not yet.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/open-mike/os-sp-gators-ucf-schedule-series-danny-white-scott-stricklin-20181215-story,amp.html

 

Gator fans will drive 100-200 miles because of the brand.

[spenser1058]

15 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Notre Dame is ready for an 8-team playoff because they know they got lucky this year and got in only because of an undefeated record, otherwise, UGA would've gotten in, in their place; them or the Pac-10 winner (they had an off year in 2018).  

Danny Kanell can Identify with UCF and their cush schedule because the FSU teams he played for were notorious for having an "easy" path to a national title berth in the '90's.

Gator fans will drive 100-200 miles because of the brand.

Although already fewer and fewer of them are doing so.