Orlando's Hometown National Champions

[spenser1058]

Nationally-known sports columnist John Feinstein  (his NPR segments are great) notes Navy has no problem scheduling good opponents because they know Navy "doesn't bring a dozen NFL prospects with them." UCF often does and it's one more reason why it's hard to improve SOS by playing an AAC team that doesn't help them if they win and kills their prospects if they lose.

More and more, as has been pointed out here before by our intrepid posters, the solution is expanding the playoffs. A really good G5 team thus gets a shot at showing their stuff on the field even if P5 ADs would rather eat dirt than schedule them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/sports/colleges/for-navy-football-the-cost-of-joining-the-aac-might-only-now-becoming-due/2018/09/26/c85c28b4-c107-11e8-90c9-23f963eea204_story.html

From WaPo

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Nationally-known sports columnist John Feinstein  (his NPR segments are great) notes Navy has no problem scheduling good opponents because they know Navy "doesn't bring a dozen NFL prospects with them." UCF often does and it's one more reason why it's hard to improve SOS by playing an AAC team that doesn't help them if they win and kills their prospects if they lose.

More and more, as has been pointed out here before by our intrepid posters, the solution is expanding the playoffs. A really good G5 team thus gets a shot at showing their stuff on the field even if P5 ADs would rather eat dirt than schedule them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/sports/colleges/for-navy-football-the-cost-of-joining-the-aac-might-only-now-becoming-due/2018/09/26/c85c28b4-c107-11e8-90c9-23f963eea204_story.html

From WaPo

UF hosted UCF in '07 I think.  UCF should just take their show on the road like FSU did in the '70's and not have to rely on teams like Texas ('07) and Pitt ('18) being their home game, barring hurricane game cancellations.  

[spenser1058]

41 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

UF hosted UCF in '07 I think.  UCF should just take their show on the road like FSU did in the '70's and not have to rely on teams like Texas ('07) and Pitt ('18) being their home game, barring hurricane game cancellations.  

As you've pointed out previously, UCF has played the game before. We went a few seasons where to build the brand on ESPN no one had a clue when we were playing. As you might imagine, attendance sucked and season ticket sales went nowhere.

As bqknight pointed out, USF is taking a hybrid approach with the Gators where they accept two away games and one instead of the traditional home and home. At the moment, USF's attendance ain't great, so I get why Danny's avoiding that.

Of course, USF is still playing at RayJ so who knows how much impact that has. Also, UCF has been playing football for 20 years longer than the Bulls (and about 15 years longer than FSU before St. Bobby came along and transformed the program - he could do that because there were many more independents then,) so we've paid our dues.

The question is why major universities (are we #1 yet or still #2?) are having to beg for a seat at the table. Not to mention we're in a huge media market with a surfeit of talent just outside the door and with one of the country's fastest-growing populations. 

What other industry that's not a cartel would be trying to not get a piece of that while protecting, ummmm, Pitt, that hasn't been to a major bowl since Dan Marino in the '70's and paying them $27 mil for the lousy performance?

I know you're all about free markets, where is that a good thing for the future? And it's not just us, there are other schools in Florida, Texas and I'm guessing other Sunbelt states in the same boat. Put another way, why are we preserving pitiful performance? Isn't that what the USSR did?

Let's expand the playoff and decide the best team on the field rather than trying to get the answer from some sense of "that's the way it's always been."

Oh, btw, SEC powerhouse Vanderbilt beat FCS team TSU by 4 points yesterday. If the ACC is paying its members $27 mil to be mediocre, how much do you think the SEC is paying Vandy? And why? Because 100 years ago they were in the right place at the right time? 

Edited September 30, 2018 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

The Sporting News is at least including UCF in the CFP convo rather than ignoring us entirely or laughing it off. 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/ncaa-division-i-fbs/news/college-football-playoff-field-four-in-two-out-week-6-ohio-state-/5i6fa7iti8gn19o4tg6z3mvrr

[jrs2]

10 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

As you've pointed out previously, UCF has played the game before. We went a few seasons where to build the brand on ESPN no one had a clue when we were playing. As you might imagine, attendance sucked and season ticket sales went nowhere.

As bqknight pointed out, USF is taking a hybrid approach with the Gators where they accept two away games and one instead of the traditional home and home. At the moment, USF's attendance ain't great, so I get why Danny's avoiding that.

Of course, USF is still playing at RayJ so who knows how much impact that has. Also, UCF has been playing football for 20 years longer than the Bulls (and about 15 years longer than FSU before St. Bobby came along and transformed the program - he could do that because there were many more independents then,) so we've paid our dues.

The question is why major universities (are we #1 yet or still #2?) are having to beg for a seat at the table. Not to mention we're in a huge media market with a surfeit of talent just outside the door and with one of the country's fastest-growing populations. 

What other industry that's not a cartel would be trying to not get a piece of that while protecting, ummmm, Pitt, that hasn't been to a major bowl since Dan Marino in the '70's and paying them $27 mil for the lousy performance?

I know you're all about free markets, where is that a good thing for the future? And it's not just us, there are other schools in Florida, Texas and I'm guessing other Sunbelt states in the same boat. Put another way, why are we preserving pitiful performance? Isn't that what the USSR did?

Let's expand the playoff and decide the best team on the field rather than trying to get the answer from some sense of "that's the way it's always been."

You make good points about rewarding performance, so let's look at UCF's past performance vs P5 schools since BHN Stadium was built in 2007:

UCF is 4-18 in the regular season but 3-2 in bowl games since 2007 versus P5 opponents.  They've played the likes of  Miami, Texas (2x), Michigan, Ohio State, KSU, SoCar, NC State, Boston College, Mizzou, etc., etc.  And after 18 of those 22 regular season games, fans were brought back down to reality of where UCF actually stood in the college football world.  They've gotten the games, but their track record stinks against those teams.  And as a result they've been branded a team on the opponents' schedule that you pencil in with a "W".

Shoot, go back one more year to 2006, and they dropped 2 more P5 games to Florida and Pitt.  And in 2005, they drop 2 more to USF and SoCar with another bowl loss to Nevada. So if I recalibrate the numbers back to 2005, UCF is 4-22 in the regular season vs P5 opponents, and their overall bowl record is 4-4 since 2005.

All these years, all UCF has done is prove that they were nothing more than a secondary program which lucked out with a couple of all star QB's during this span to give them good seasons. 

So then the chips finally start falling into place with Frost in 2017.  Okay.  Shoot, even undefeated Syracuse was shut out of the national title game in '87 and so was Penn St. in '94- both accomplished programs, because of SOS.  What makes UCF better than Penn St or Syracuse as a program, when Penn St. was shut out having multiple national titles to it's name, and Syracuse?  Throw '04 Auburn into that conversation.  Those programs took it on the chin but all I see from East Orlando is a bunch of entitlement and antitrust talk, and that's BS.

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

You make good points about rewarding performance, so let's look at UCF's past performance vs P5 schools since BHN Stadium was built in 2007:

UCF is 4-18 in the regular season but 3-2 in bowl games since 2007 versus P5 opponents.  They've played the likes of  Miami, Texas (2x), Michigan, Ohio State, KSU, SoCar, NC State, Boston College, Mizzou, etc., etc.  And after 18 of those 22 regular season games, fans were brought back down to reality of where UCF actually stood in the college football world.  They've gotten the games, but their track record stinks against those teams.  And as a result they've been branded a team on the opponents' schedule that you pencil in with a "W".

Shoot, go back one more year to 2006, and they dropped 2 more P5 games to Florida and Pitt.  And in 2005, they drop 2 more to USF and SoCar with another bowl loss to Nevada. So if I recalibrate the numbers back to 2005, UCF is 4-22 in the regular season vs P5 opponents, and their overall bowl record is 4-4 since 2005.

All these years, all UCF has done is prove that they were nothing more than a secondary program which lucked out with a couple of all star QB's during this span to give them good seasons. 

So then the chips finally start falling into place with Frost in 2017.  Okay.  Shoot, even undefeated Syracuse was shut out of the national title game in '87 and so was Penn St. in '94- both accomplished programs, because of SOS.  What makes UCF better than Penn St or Syracuse as a program, when Penn St. was shut out having multiple national titles to it's name, and Syracuse?  Throw '04 Auburn into that conversation.  Those programs took it on the chin but all I see from East Orlando is a bunch of entitlement and antitrust talk, and that's BS.

Actually, our first New Year's bowl (which we won against a P5 opponent, Baylor)  was under Coach O'Leary.

Orher fun facts: we beat Alabama in a regular season game in 2000 and Georgia in the 2010 Liberty Bowl.

And, if you would like to talk about laggardly performance, shall we talk about how long it took Florida to win the SEC? Almost 90 years, as I recall.

Looking at the past is the whole problem with the FBS at the moment. Most programs need a catalyst to jump to the next level. For UF, it was the Head Ball Coach (after Charley Pell did all the underground dirty work that allowed SOS to move forward with a clean program that was the standard until Urban Liar came to town.) For FSU, it was the arrival of Saint Bobby in 1976. For us, it was the arrival of AD Danny White. 

 

 

In the Coaches' Poll, our Hometown National Champions are up 1 to #13!

That keeps the Knights #1 in Florida for another week (The U was #17 and UF was #27.)

https://www.dawgnation.com/football/coaches-poll-top-25-week-6-georgia-football-2018/amp

From Dawg Nation

Edited September 30, 2018 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

19 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Actually, our first New Year's bowl (which we won against a P5 opponent) was under Coach O'Leary.

And, if you would like to talk about laggardly performance, shall we talk about how long it took Florida to win the SEC? Almost 90 years, as I recall.

Looking at the past is the whole problem with the FBS at the moment.

As to your first point- Yes, but UCF blew games against P5 opponents in the regular season that they should've won.  Baylor was a good win.  So was Auburn.  What about the other 18 P5 losses since 2007 (22 since '05) in the regular season?  Bowl games are on national TV, but so are a lot of these other games.  That creates reputation.

As to your second point about The Gators:  I know, I know, but this isn't about the Gators.  It did take a long time for UF to win the SEC Title, but that's not the only barometer for a school creating a name for itself.

For example, UF's 1928 team was the NCAA High Scoring Champions which had their first All American on that squad, Dale Van Sickle, who went on to a Hollywood career and was on the same All American squad as John Wayne of USC and was a renowned Hollywood stuntman for many years afterwards.  And UF was a charter member of the SEC in the 1930's, back when these conferences were born and the structure of college football was cemented.   So that was the start of a legacy of relevance for UF.  Their colors were orange & blue even back then.  The name of the school was UF even back then.  Their mascot was chosen back then.  Their stadium was built on campus before then.  Now compare that to schools like Michigan, Ohio State, OU, Nebraska, etc.  They have even more history that that- some way more.  But at least UF has a history predating the AP Poll.

UF has ranked No.1 in the SEC under 3 different coaches (Hall, Spurrier, Meyer), and has won it's division  since 1992 with 3 different coaches (Spurrier, Meyer, McElwain).  UF has also won the national championship under 2 different coaches (Spurrier, Meyer) and 3 different starting QB's (Wuerffel, Leak, Tebow).  But if you count the 1984 team's NY Times No.1 team, that's 3 coaches (incl. Hall) and 4 starting QB's (incl. Bell).  The NFL's all time leading rusher is Emmitt Smith.  And UF has had 3 players win the Heisman in 3 different decades ('66, '96, '07), with other players ranking as finalists numerous times as well (E. Smith '89, Matthews '91, Wuerffel '95, Leak '06, Grossman '01, Tebow '08, '09, etc.  UF has a fight song and a slogan that's existed for decades upon decades, including the "We are the boys of ole Florida..." 4th quarter tradition.  All of this is tradition.  Also, rivalries historically:  Cocktail Party vs UGA; the LSU game; the Tennessee game; the Auburn game; the Miami game; FSU; Bama.  Every one of these rivalry series are with teams that have won the national title, and so has UF.  That's a meaningful history.  

UCF is late to the party.  UCF beat Baylor and Auburn.  That's a good start.  Their on-campus stadium is now in it's 11th year. They've been in 1-A for 22 years.   

As to your third point about a playoff:  If UCF took care of business since 2005 by beating the P5 opponents on their schedule, then there wouldn't be a need to expand the Playoff to 8 teams.  Their reputation would've been strong by now and they probably would've been invited into the Big 12.  That shows program consistency.  UCF has not shown that. 

Look as much as everyone hated Zook, none of his three teams fell out of the Top 25.  Muscham's 2012 team was very good (he went to 3 bowl games); McElwain's first two squads won their division; the '80's Gators went to bowl games every year except two probation years, had Top 6 finishes 3 times, and ranked in the Top 25 almost every year early in the season and finished in the Top 25 a total of 5 times.  The next most bowl games by decade was in the '60's.  The '70's ended bad. We know about the '90's Gators and the Meyer Gators.  

My point?  Consistency.  In a day and age of pollsters, it is very important.

[spenser1058]

4 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

As to your first point- Yes, but UCF blew games against P5 opponents in the regular season that they should've won.  Baylor was a good win.  So was Auburn.  What about the other 18 P5 losses since 2007 (22 since '05) in the regular season?  Bowl games are on national TV, but so are a lot of these other games.  That creates reputation.

As to your second point about The Gators:  I know, I know, but this isn't about the Gators.  It did take a long time for UF to win the SEC Title, but that's not the only barometer for a school creating a name for itself.

For example, UF's 1928 team was the NCAA High Scoring Champions which had their first All American on that squad, Dale Van Sickle, who went on to a Hollywood career and was on the same All American squad as John Wayne of USC and was a renowned Hollywood stuntman for many years afterwards.  And UF was a charter member of the SEC in the 1930's, back when these conferences were born and the structure of college football was cemented.   So that was the start of a legacy of relevance for UF.  Their colors were orange & blue even back then.  The name of the school was UF even back then.  Their mascot was chosen back then.  Their stadium was built on campus before then.  Now compare that to schools like Michigan, Ohio State, OU, Nebraska, etc.  They have even more history that that- some way more.  But at least UF has a history predating the AP Poll.

UF has ranked No.1 in the SEC under 3 different coaches (Hall, Spurrier, Meyer), and has won it's division  since 1992 with 3 different coaches (Spurrier, Meyer, McElwain).  UF has also won the national championship under 2 different coaches (Spurrier, Meyer) and 3 different starting QB's (Wuerffel, Leak, Tebow).  But if you count the 1984 team's NY Times No.1 team, that's 3 coaches (incl. Hall) and 4 starting QB's (incl. Bell).  The NFL's all time leading rusher is Emmitt Smith.  And UF has had 3 players win the Heisman in 3 different decades ('66, '96, '07), with other players ranking as finalists numerous times as well (E. Smith '89, Matthews '91, Wuerffel '95, Leak '06, Grossman '01, Tebow '08, '09, etc.  UF has a fight song and a slogan that's existed for decades upon decades, including the "We are the boys of ole Florida..." 4th quarter tradition.  All of this is tradition.  Also, rivalries historically:  Cocktail Party vs UGA; the LSU game; the Tennessee game; the Auburn game; the Miami game; FSU; Bama.  Every one of these rivalry series are with teams that have won the national title, and so has UF.  That's a meaningful history.  

UCF is late to the party.  UCF beat Baylor and Auburn.  That's a good start.  Their on-campus stadium is now in it's 11th year. They've been in 1-A for 22 years.   

As to your third point about a playoff:  If UCF took care of business since 2005 by beating the P5 opponents on their schedule, then there wouldn't be a need to expand the Playoff to 8 teams.  Their reputation would've been strong by now and they probably would've been invited into the Big 12.  That shows program consistency.  UCF has not shown that. 

Look as much as everyone hated Zook, none of his three teams fell out of the Top 25.  Muscham's 2012 team was very good (he went to 3 bowl games); McElwain's first two squads won their division; the '80's Gators went to bowl games every year except two probation years, had Top 6 finishes 3 times, and ranked in the Top 25 almost every year early in the season and finished in the Top 25 a total of 5 times.  The next most bowl games by decade was in the '60's.  The '70's ended bad. We know about the '90's Gators and the Meyer Gators.  

My point?  Consistency.  In a day and age of pollsters, it is very important.

Why not avoid all those politics and decide it on the field? If Florida (or any other team) is the best, why not decide it that way? What exactly have we achieved with this Byzantine process that applies to one subset of one sport in one country?

[spenser1058]

In the Week 6 AP poll, our Hometown National Champions move up 1 to #12.

UCF remains Florida's highest ranked team, with The U at #17 and the Gators at #22.

The Knights are back to conference play next week against SMU at the Bounce House at 7pm  Saturday. ESPNU has the feed. See you there.

Charge On!

Some kudos for KZ this week: he passed the school record set by Blake Bortles for career touchdowns. He also won the Walter Camp National Offensive Player of the Week. Did I mention he's a really nice guy? No Johnny Football problems here. GO KZ!

Edited September 30, 2018 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

The more you know.... 98.7% of UCF graduates are still alive. Yay, us!

[AmIReal]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

98.7% of UCF graduates are still alive

That is a really cool stat... makes me nostalgic. https://www.ucf.edu/50/timeline/50-years-of-ucf/

btw, I know this is several years old; I just like reviewing it every now and then.

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by AmIReal
comment

[jrs2]

19 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Why not avoid all those politics and decide it on the field? If Florida (or any other team) is the best, why not decide it that way? What exactly have we achieved with this Byzantine process that applies to one subset of one sport in one country?

Agreed, but they already did that.  They created the BCS in 1998 to pit No.1 & No.2 against each other.  After the Pete Carroll incident after the 2002 incident, they tweaked it lessening the SOS element of the Harris Poll which benefitted USC in 2003 by having the AP split from the BCS and award them the NC.  But after SEC teams won it in 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and another lose in the title game in 2013 and another shunned in 2004, they made a 4-team Playoff beginning in 2014 to appease the Number 3's and Number 4's of the world.

Now, the Number 5's and Number 6's want "justice."  That's what is going on here.  And I'm being as objective as possible.

[bqknight]

On 9/30/2018 at 7:48 AM, jrs2 said:

Yep.  Looks like Mullen is the real deal.  He’s gotten Franks to play smarter.  Grantham has the D playing with Top 5 stats and play.  I predicted that MSU’s loss of Mullen and adjusting to a new game plan would work to UF’s advantage coupled with UF’s new game plan which is light years ahead of last year’s lack of a sound game plan and direction.

See. This is where the P5/G5 perception thing is quite real. Who has UF beaten to be able to make a judgement like that? A bad Colorado State team, a bad Tennessee team a maybe okay but still not very good Miss St. team. They lost to a Kentucky team that hasn't really beaten anyone of note either. It's all about names not about actual talent. 

Do you (this is somewhat rhetorical) really not believe that UCF would beat any of those teams? I'd venture to say they would destroy any team UF has played this year - maybe Kentucky would give us a run but it's hard to tell because they haven't played anyone really. 

Don't get me wrong, the top of the SEC is GOOD. UGA and Alabama are scary this year - but much of the SEC and many P5 conferences are nothing special. 

14 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Agreed, but they already did that.  They created the BCS in 1998 to pit No.1 & No.2 against each other.  After the Pete Carroll incident after the 2002 incident, they tweaked it lessening the SOS element of the Harris Poll which benefitted USC in 2003 by having the AP split from the BCS and award them the NC.  But after SEC teams won it in 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and another lose in the title game in 2013 and another shunned in 2004, they made a 4-team Playoff beginning in 2014 to appease the Number 3's and Number 4's of the world.

Now, the Number 5's and Number 6's want "justice."  That's what is going on here.  And I'm being as objective as possible.

When everyone isn't playing the "same" people - it's hard to tell who is the Number 5 and 6. 

An 8 team playoff makes the sense. It wouldn't be rewarding those who are out of the Top 4. It would reward the winner of each P5 conference and the best G6 (P6) team and then two wild cards. That's 100% fair and I'm not sure anyone would have the right to complain after that. If you can't even win your conference, how can you be "the best"?

[aent]

1 hour ago, bqknight said:

Don't get me wrong, the top of the SEC is GOOD. 

And the top 3 or so of the AAC is really good too.

1 hour ago, bqknight said:

An 8 team playoff makes the sense. It wouldn't be rewarding those who are out of the Top 4. It would reward the winner of each P5 conference and the best G6 (P6) team and then two wild cards. That's 100% fair and I'm not sure anyone would have the right to complain after that. If you can't even win your conference, how can you be "the best"?

The big problem with that is the incentive for Alabama is to lose a CCG qualifying game because they should still get in and get to skip the SEC championship like they did last year, giving them an unfair advantage. The two wildcard spots need a separate play-in game for their slots, with teams who lost in their CCG disqualified in every conference.

[spenser1058]

Dennis Dodd of the CBS Sports Power Rankings  is waiting for the CFP to repeat itself and downlist the Kinights behind P5 teams with 2 and 3 losses again. He notes it will be unfair because he believes UCF can play with anyone in the country. They may not always win, but they'll be competitive.

He notes that UCF's weakness on defense isn't even fatal (we should add there was big improvement against Pitt), because a team like Oklahoma is winning despite being 91st in defense (we're at least in the top half.)

If this plays out like last year with UCF undefeated (which is unfair in and of itself but that's another post,) the CFP is going to have to change their hidebound ways or look for litigation. The good sign is that UCF is moving up both the AP and coaches' polls more quickly this year, a definite improvement.

Edited October 1, 2018 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, bqknight said:

See. This is where the P5/G5 perception thing is quite real. Who has UF beaten to be able to make a judgement like that? A bad Colorado State team, a bad Tennessee team a maybe okay but still not very good Miss St. team. They lost to a Kentucky team that hasn't really beaten anyone of note either. It's all about names not about actual talent. 

Do you (this is somewhat rhetorical) really not believe that UCF would beat any of those teams? I'd venture to say they would destroy any team UF has played this year - maybe Kentucky would give us a run but it's hard to tell because they haven't played anyone really. 

Don't get me wrong, the top of the SEC is GOOD. UGA and Alabama are scary this year - but much of the SEC and many P5 conferences are nothing special. 

When everyone isn't playing the "same" people - it's hard to tell who is the Number 5 and 6. 

An 8 team playoff makes the sense. It wouldn't be rewarding those who are out of the Top 4. It would reward the winner of each P5 conference and the best G6 (P6) team and then two wild cards. That's 100% fair and I'm not sure anyone would have the right to complain after that. If you can't even win your conference, how can you be "the best"?

And who the hec has UCF beaten to earn a No.12 ranking?  NOBODY.  UF won at Neyland Stadium and at ranked MSU.

Wasn't Nick Fitzgerald only one of three QB's ever to have 35 TD's to his name, the other two being Tebow and Mullen's other QB at MSU?  So I wouldn't say MSU's not very good, especially when the entire NCAA recognizes MSU's defense as being a stout defense loaded with talent.  Rag on MSU b/c UF beat them.  Are you going to say the same thing about LSU if UF beats them, to say that they must not have been that good b/c UF beat them?  Sounds like it.  Except that LSU beat Miami pretty well from the ACC.  

Personally, I don't think Kentucky is that good b/c of my anti- SEC doormat bias; I think they're a blind squirrel even though Snell is a Heisman contender.  And I can say that with confidence b/c I believe UF sucked when they played Kentucky b/c UF was missing key personnel and players were missing assignments b/c it was a new system and it was only the 2nd game.  Now, Mullen's system has had 5 games under it's belt and there have been drastic improvements across the board. 

And this goes to UCF.  They played well last year and this year b/c they have a Heisman contending QB.  Once he's gone, I do not believe they will be any good.  Why?  Look what happened when Daunte left, and when Bortles left- with the same coaches, mind you.  Or should I go back and post their P5 record since 1998 to illustrate?

And again, this whole G5 talk.  UCF wasn't even in the FBS until 1996.  UCF has no "rights" to anything in the FBS versus teams that have been in it for a hundred years.  No one forced UCF to join the FBS.  But just because they did doesn't mean the FBS or the AP or the Playoff owes them anything.   Look at my prior posts.  UCF is 4-22 since 2005 against the P5 in the regular season; now 5-22 with the win against Pitt.  Had they taken care of business back then,when they went 4-22, kinda like Utah  did which earned them an invite into the Pac-10, they would've been in a P5 conference today.  But I don't think UCF tanking so badly over these years (4-22) warrants any expansion of the Playoff to cater to them for crying foul at being a G5 team still and playing a G5 schedule.

So, UCF's poor play over the years puts then into the, or keeps them in the, G5.  Then they get a Heisman contending QB who beats everyone on a weak schedule (2018's SOS is only No. 120; 2017 was like  No.64).  Then they catch Auburn at a very low point and beat them.  Bama loses to UF in '08, then loses the bowl game to Utah as a result.  The '93 undefeated WVU team misses out on the bid to play for the NC b/c of SOS, plays UF instead, and gets beat.  UF missed out of the NC bid in '91, is disappointed, settles for lowly ranked Notre Dame, then gets beat.  It happens everyday.  Motivation.  Letting the air out of the tires, as they say.

But UCF won the game against Auburn.  Bravo.  But those were the true circumstances surrounding that win.  And UCF is using that as a rallying cry for how wronged they've been.  I think that's ridiculous.  Neither you nor any other UCF fan will ever agree with me on this or acknowledge these points b/c you're biased.  You're asking the wrong questions and doing a biased analysis that benefits your argument(s).  You'll say I'm doing the same thing, but I'm stating facts that matter in this discussion.  

And one more thing:  blame USF.  Because they kept UCF out of the Big East all these years before it disbanded and lessened UCF's chances at an invite into a P5 expansion slot.  But what did it matter anyway, UCF still went 5-22 against P5 opponents during that time period.

[spenser1058]

For the most part, until the Bear retired and allowed Coach Spurrier to thrive, Florida was an also-ran in the SEC for the overwhelming majority of its history. Should we henceforth ignore them based on their past?

That's comical (as someone who sat in the stands from the '60's on - remember the fertilizer Charley Pell used on Florida Field? 0-10-1!) And then, of course, there was the Herschel Walker era at UGA. It was a darn good thing Jacksonville hosted the "world's largest outdoor cocktail party," because for those of us too young to drink in those years, it was painful to watch the games.

Tradition is a wonderful thing and I miss Two Bits and "Oh My!" plus "Always On My Mind" and "We Are the Boys." Heck, I dated one of the Gator mascots (he was a lot more, ummmm, genteel in the '70's than the hypermasculine Albert we have today.) As Andy points out, though, starting new traditions is fun, too!

It's like the argument here between the folks who want to follow the model of legacy large cities and who hate we're so far behind (Atlanta was like that, too) and bemoan our status. That contrasts with those of us who love what's unique about Orlando and can't wait to see a totally different vision of a metropolis.

Both are valid (although I never quite understood why someone totally dedicated to the idea of living the Manhattan way just didn't move there or to the closest facsimile.)

In football, though, it's a simple matter of deciding who's best. There's a reason the idea of a "level playing field" and Chief Justice John Roberts' analogy about calling "strikes and balls" both came from sports.

And UF used the same arguments to avoid playing FSU way back when. The Legislature took care of that - do you really want them (or Congress since this is an issue larger than the state) to resolve it? Nope, just expand the playoffs and enjoy life in The Swamp for many more years!

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by spenser1058

[AndyPok1]

There's a middle ground here.  Picking an arbitrary date and looking at records since then doesn't mean much.  If you want to do that, let's pick 2013 since that is when the joined the American.  Since then they are 1 of only 8 schools to win 2 BCS / NY6 games... the others: Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Michigan State, Florida State.

Also, the reason I'm anti going to an 8 team playoff?  The 8th best team after a full regular season doesn't deserve to be champion.  Period.  Personally I think it should be a dynamic system every year.  However many teams are worthy get in.  All 0 and 1 loss teams are eligible.  If its 2, awesome.  If its 7, well alright then.  Let's battle.

[spenser1058]

That could work. It's funny to me that if UCF is so weak a team, so many of the big boys are scared to play us and just settle it on the field.

[jrs2]

I guess no Knights wish to acknowledge that the predicament UCF is in presently is partly the result of their horrible P5 record.  Rather, all Knights are like, "yeah, we sucked in those games for the past decade, but for the moment, we don't suck, so we  expect the NCAA to accommodate us with an 8 team playoff."  It won't happen, my friends, any time soon, and by the time it does, UF, FSU, and Miami will each be perennial Top 10 teams again (UF maybe sooner) and UCF will then be crying for a 16 team playoff.

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

For the most part, until the Bear retired and allowed Coach Spurrier to thrive, Florida was an also-ran in the SEC for the overwhelming majority of its history. Should we henceforth ignore them based on their past?

That's comical (as someone who sat in the stands from the '60's on - remember the fertilizer Charley Pell used on Florida Field? 0-10-1!) And then, of course, there was the Herschel Walker era at UGA. It was a darn good thing Jacksonville hosted the "world's largest outdoor cocktail party," because for those of us too young to drink in those years, it was painful to watch the games.

Tradition is a wonderful thing and I miss Two Bits and "Oh My!" plus "Always On My Mind" and "We Are the Boys." Heck, I dated one of the Gator mascots (he was a lot more, ummmm, genteel in the '70's than the hypermasculine Albert we have today.) As Andy points out, though, starting new traditions is fun, too!

It's like the argument here between the folks who want to follow the model of legacy large cities and who hate we're so far behind (Atlanta was like that, too) and bemoan our status. That contrasts with those of us who love what's unique about Orlando and can't wait to see a totally different vision of a metropolis.

Both are valid (although I never quite understood why someone totally dedicated to the idea of living the Manhattan way just didn't move there or to the closest facsimile.)

In football, though, it's a simple matter of deciding who's best. There's a reason the idea of a "level playing field" and Chief Justice John Roberts' analogy about calling "strikes and balls" both came from sports.

And UF used the same arguments to avoid playing FSU way back when. The Legislature took care of that - do you really want them (or Congress since this is an issue larger than the state) to resolve it? Nope, just expand the playoffs and enjoy life in The Swamp for many more years!

 

Well, on that note, Alabama became an also-ran when Bear retired.    It's cyclical.  But here's the difference with UCF:  UF is a charter member of the SEC.  They are and have been a part of the P5 since the 1930's, and UCF wasn't even in Div 1-A until 1996.  There is a level playing field, but UCF wasn't around when it was set.

But there is a white elephant in this room not being discussed which goes way beyond actual football:  academics.

Major schools, both in football and academics joined conferences during expansions and new formations starting in '91-'92.  Where was UCF back then?  What had they accomplished in football or academics by then?  Shoot, even USF fast tracked their football program into Div 1-A in '01 from inception in '97.  Then, USF was invited into the Big East in '05 and UCF wasn't.  They went from nothing in 1996 to a major conference football team in a matter of 9 seasons.  So while USF was enjoying it's first couple of seasons in the Big East, UCF was still trying to figure out it's logo and current mascot.   Just look at the first paragraph of USF's wiki page and they list all of their academic accolades as an institution (which is a major reason why they were invited to the Big East).  Look at UCF's wiki page and you have to dig deep to find anything other than the number of degrees they've given students and reference to the new medical school.

Why wouldn't UCF be part of the Big 12 by now?  With Florida being such a fertile recruiting ground state, and the TV market, why not have UCF in their conference so teams can market themselves in Orlando every year?  I can assure you, it's not because Big 12 teams are "afraid" to play them.  They have nothing to gain from UCF apparently, b/c, in this big money age of college football, if they did, they would've been invited in by now. 

And this has everything to do with the Playoffs, because, if UCF was a serious school earlier in it's history, and fast tracked their football program to 1-A faster, and spent more money on it sooner, they would've been USF right now or more, and this discussion would be moot.

OMG, UCF versus the P5, since being in 1-A (1996), is only 6-51.

[bqknight]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

And who the hec has UCF beaten to earn a No.12 ranking?  NOBODY.  UF won at Neyland Stadium and at ranked MSU.

Wasn't Nick Fitzgerald only one of three QB's ever to have 35 TD's to his name, the other two being Tebow and Mullen's other QB at MSU?  So I wouldn't say MSU's not very good, especially when the entire NCAA recognizes MSU's defense as being a stout defense loaded with talent.  Rag on MSU b/c UF beat them.  Are you going to say the same thing about LSU if UF beats them, to say that they must not have been that good b/c UF beat them?  Sounds like it.  Except that LSU beat Miami pretty well from the ACC.  

Personally, I don't think Kentucky is that good b/c of my anti- SEC doormat bias; I think they're a blind squirrel even though Snell is a Heisman contender.  And I can say that with confidence b/c I believe UF sucked when they played Kentucky b/c UF was missing key personnel and players were missing assignments b/c it was a new system and it was only the 2nd game.  Now, Mullen's system has had 5 games under it's belt and there have been drastic improvements across the board. 

And this goes to UCF.  They played well last year and this year b/c they have a Heisman contending QB.  Once he's gone, I do not believe they will be any good.  Why?  Look what happened when Daunte left, and when Bortles left- with the same coaches, mind you.  Or should I go back and post their P5 record since 1998 to illustrate?

And again, this whole G5 talk.  UCF wasn't even in the FBS until 1996.  UCF has no "rights" to anything in the FBS versus teams that have been in it for a hundred years.  No one forced UCF to join the FBS.  But just because they did doesn't mean the FBS or the AP or the Playoff owes them anything.   Look at my prior posts.  UCF is 4-22 since 2005 against the P5 in the regular season; now 5-22 with the win against Pitt.  Had they taken care of business back then,when they went 4-22, kinda like Utah  did which earned them an invite into the Pac-10, they would've been in a P5 conference today.  But I don't think UCF tanking so badly over these years (4-22) warrants any expansion of the Playoff to cater to them for crying foul at being a G5 team still and playing a G5 schedule.

So, UCF's poor play over the years puts then into the, or keeps them in the, G5.  Then they get a Heisman contending QB who beats everyone on a weak schedule (2018's SOS is only No. 120; 2017 was like  No.64).  Then they catch Auburn at a very low point and beat them.  Bama loses to UF in '08, then loses the bowl game to Utah as a result.  The '93 undefeated WVU team misses out on the bid to play for the NC b/c of SOS, plays UF instead, and gets beat.  UF missed out of the NC bid in '91, is disappointed, settles for lowly ranked Notre Dame, then gets beat.  It happens everyday.  Motivation.  Letting the air out of the tires, as they say.

But UCF won the game against Auburn.  Bravo.  But those were the true circumstances surrounding that win.  And UCF is using that as a rallying cry for how wronged they've been.  I think that's ridiculous.  Neither you nor any other UCF fan will ever agree with me on this or acknowledge these points b/c you're biased.  You're asking the wrong questions and doing a biased analysis that benefits your argument(s).  You'll say I'm doing the same thing, but I'm stating facts that matter in this discussion.  

And one more thing:  blame USF.  Because they kept UCF out of the Big East all these years before it disbanded and lessened UCF's chances at an invite into a P5 expansion slot.  But what did it matter anyway, UCF still went 5-22 against P5 opponents during that time period.

You're right, UCF historically has been, "meh". We had a slew of horrible athletic directors that had no true vision or desire to advance UCF. 

Our whole point is that you shouldn't be looking at the past in decided today and the future. You get teams that get ranked every year due to a name and absolutely nothing more. It was a joke that FSU was ranked to begin the year. It's been a joke that Texas was ranked in the pre-season EVERY year while they haven't done anything of note in nearly 10 years. A LARGE amount of P5 teams have done nothing in their entire existence, yet they're looked at higher than a team like UCF. It's a joke. The American, which I think looks pretty weak compared to usual this year is I think 7-5 vs P5 teams this year. All that tells me is our middle of the pack conference members are no different than a P5 middle of the pack conference member. 

My favorite argument from the P5 crowd is "why don't you just join a better conference?" or "just play better teams". Like we haven't been trying. We do blame USF for the Big East thing, it's part of the reason we hate them so much. Karma is a b!tch though because our athletic department is screaming past them while they hold onto a #2 ranking from yesteryear. 

Every team is better when they have a heisman candidate as a QB. We'll obviously try to recruit one (meanwhile, it's WAY harder for us to recruit due us not being on an equal playing field). UCF is LOADED with talent right now though. Offensively at least. 

I get we're playing "easier teams" but we're DESTROYING easier teams. Do you watch the games? I'm not sure we've even half opened our playbook yet. If you honestly sit and watch a UCF game and can't see they're a LEGIT great team - then you're just as biased as you're calling us UCF fans. 

 

[spenser1058]

Don't forget they told us we were going to fall apart when Coach Frosty left. Didn't happen, of course thanks to Danny White ( wanna compare his record so far to Foley's? We'll see how the Gators' new guy shakes out.)

BTW, it was only 4 years between winning the Fiesta Bowl with Blake and the Peach Bowl with KZ. Not bad for a totally rebuilt team with totally different coaches and strategies.

Antway, bottom line, show us on the field how good you are. Answers all the questions you may have. The end. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by spenser1058

[AndyPok1]

15 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I guess no Knights wish to acknowledge that the predicament UCF is in presently is partly the result of their horrible P5 record. 

I follow these things pretty closely, and this thread is the first I've heard anyone bring up 90s and Aughts records vs P5 teams.  Yes, UCF needs to build more history.  Yes, I think lots of the Knights fans are impatient.  However, I don't agree with the vitriol being sent in their direction.  Your out of context stats mean little.  Especially as a newer program, you're going to accept whatever big school wants you as a cupcake win because you need the money.  What is the record of all the G5 schools that have joined FBS since 1990?  I'd be shocked if anyone has more than 10 wins vs P5 teams.

[spenser1058]

Meanwhile, in the stands:

"Attendance has continued to decline steadily...since 2006."

https://247sports.com/college/florida/Article/Florida-Gators-Football-Report-UFs-season-ticket-sales-lagging-in-2018-121002409/Amp/

From 24/7 Sports

Meanwhile, "UCF attendance is surging..."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/open-mike/os-sp-ucf-pitt-mike-bianchi-0930-story.html

From the Orlando Sentinel

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by spenser1058

[bqknight]

Fun Stat of the day. Here are each Conference Division's record against P5 teams (from not their own conference):

AAC-East 6-2

SEC-West 5-1

Big 10-East 5-2

Pac 12-South 2-2

SEC-East 1-1

Big XII (No Divisions) 4-6

Big 10-West 2-3

ACC-Costal 2-4

ACC-Atlantic 1-2

Pac 12-North 1-2

Edited October 2, 2018 by bqknight