Vertical Medical City | 40-Story Medical High Rise [Proposed]

[I am Reality]

8 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

And what exactly is it that you're "doing" outside of trolling this message board and claiming to to live here?

I question your motivations.

Yes, you've figured me all out. I don't live in Orlando, but I inexplicably really, really, really want it to have high-wage jobs. It's all part of my scheme to have professional jobs from my city move to Orlando. All the big -shot business leaders read the Orlando version of UrbanPlanet. That means you, Elon and Bezos.  It's all part of my sinister plan.

Keep crying about the height of buildings. That works. You don't have the faintest idea what it takes to be a real city. Others are smarter and know what it's all about.

Move to NYC, big-city-poser.

[JFW657]

4 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Yes, you've figured me all out. I don't live in Orlando, but I inexplicably really, really, really want it to have high-wage jobs. It's all part of my scheme to have professional jobs from my city move to Orlando. All the big -shot business leaders read the Orlando version of UrbanPlanet. That means you, Elon and Bezos.  It's all part of my sinister plan.

Keep crying about the height of buildings. That works. You don't have the faintest idea what it takes to be a real city. Others are smarter and know what it's all about.

Move to NYC, big-city-poser.

You still haven't answered my question.

How are you trying, as you claimed, to "make things better"?

What exactly are you doing?

[I am Reality]

11 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I agree with Alex. As for Reality, yeah we get it, we need more higher paying jobs, no crap?!!  It's not like you can just wish them into existence. Unless you plan on personally starting a Fortune 500 company in the next couple of days and handing out $75k salaries to a bunch of millennials or get elected to public office and start to shift the tourism tax to corporate incentives or start an Ivy League university downtown, you are doing nothing by spouting off the same tired bullcrap. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Oh I know let's build a bunch of fake fudgeing trees like Singapore, I'm sure then that everything will be magically fixed and we can all ride to work on flying unicorns with our model significant-others while we get paid six figures to solve the world's problems and end poverty. Brilliant! I sure am glad SOMEBODY is doing SOMETHING! 

"I would really like a 60 story building downtown.."

"I don't necessarily want to be like New York City or Chicago..."

"If only they waved the FAA height regulation..."

What were you saying about flying unicorns?

Funny, I didn't see anything about jobs until I started posting. I read this for weeks before I posted anything. 

Nothing about jobs. It's all buildings buildings buildings. It's like a blog version of Zillow. Figure out what really constitutes an urban community. It's not buildings.

Don't tell me you "get" it.  You are insecure about were you live and need some type of validation. Grow up.

 

[dcluley98]

Well being that this is a building forum, I don't know why you would expect us to post topics about jobs. . . but then again, the actual world doesn't exist outside of your own perspective, so I can see how that detail may have escaped comprehension. 

Here are a couple of links to business and job creation forums:

https://www.reddit.com/r/business/

https://community.startupnation.com/

Knock yourself out, brah! Good luck on your job creation!

[jrs2]

8 hours ago, I am Reality said:

How to you account for the lack of corporate jobs & HQs here?

Again, Amazon doesn't think Orlando is even a TOP 20 location for a corporate office. Sorry folks, that is an indictment on our economy.

I would again refer you to my previous list of similar-sized or smaller cities with corporate HQs, large law firms, finance jobs and tech jobs.  Raw numbers...not on a percentage basis. The list is long  (i.e. Seattle, San Jose, Vancouver, Denver, Austin, Columbus, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, Pittsburg, San Diego, San Antonio, even tiny Salt Lake City).

I don't have a study but I believe that the convention business puts Orlando in a different eye for these companies that host conventions here, and this has and will have a positive impact on new business growth and/or corporate relocation opportunities.

I think the Amazon HQ2 situation was a splash of cold water to place things in perspective about Orlando's economy vs some of these other cities.  But I still believe Orlando didn't put together that good of a bid.  Amazon is using it's bid to extort incentives from whomever whose host state legislature is willing to fork the cheddar over that they expect.  They're no different than JetBlue.  

With regards to that list, shoot, even Akron, OH has a very developed downtown compared to Orlando- from way back.  All of those cities in that list are and have large city centers.  Orlando might have the MSA numbers, but not the downtown stats numbers.  Nashville is a great example of a city where when you look closely, you see how much more developed it is than Orlando.  New Orleans...Indy...Louisville... it's amazing.

Those other cities also have indigenous businesses that have developed and grown over the years to their advantage.  Pitt has the Carnegie-Mellons of the world; Charlotte has monster BOA; Salt Lake City I believe house some of the largest Mormon owned companies there as well; Oil companies in NOLA; etc., and those other cities are also much older than Orlando ala being bigger for a longer period of time.  I mean, shoot, places like Chicago and NYC have stock exchanges that are a hundred years old and older; maybe even Dallas as well.  OKC has oil.  

Orlando is on the path of building up it's downtown residential population...fairly quickly...and that will make downtown more attractive.  When UCF begins operations downtown, that will be huge.  

And as for a tall skyscraper downtown, you don't need a corporate HQ for that; you can have a residential tower built.  Miami did it right by marketing to foreign investors who have funded most all of their tall residential towers.  Of all that new construction over the past decade, Wells Fargo is perhaps the only new office tower there (with Marriott Marquis).

Orlando is what it is., but it's growing and changing.  I like what it's becoming.  

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

Don't question my motivations.  From what I can tell, I am the only true believer here. What have you done to mark the city a better place?  Make innate postings about buildings? This is an urban development website...not a real estate website. I have been banging my head all week trying to get people to realize how poor the economy is here. I get lots of excuses...Disney...we're "new"...things are getting better. That's such lackadaisical bullcrap.  

People in other cities would REFUSE TO ACCEPT our current economy.  People don't even seem to realize there is a problem. Nothing is going to change because people have a buried their head in the sand.

My suggestion...if you really like tall buildings, take your defeatist loser mentality and move to NYC.  Seriously. Because the economy here cannot support tall buildings. You are living a lie and trying to be something you are not.

Don't question m motivations again. I at least am trying to make things better.

wow.  No, you are not the only true believer here.  I may beotch about...stuff...sometimes...and get backlash from other posters about it...and usually deserve it...but these posters here have reported on so many types of community building projects and things you wouldn't expect to hear about that improve the community; not just building height stuff.  You can focus on the bad, but it's good to focus on the good, because it's progress.  I don't know why you are fixated on the tall buildings issue so much.  I think what you mean is that you can't have tall buildings without big businesses to fill them, right?  So, if we want tall buildings, is that really burying our collective heads in the sand?  Is Sunny Isles a lie?  no skyscrapers there in 2000; since then, the second tallest skyline in Florida.  No companies there, but are they living a lie?

Anyway, I think what you are also saying is that because we aren't getting those companies, we are wanting tall buildings to give the illusion that this is a big city.  Maybe, but maybe not.  The Plaza could've been an 900' Dynetech-looking tower if they designed it that way with the demand that it filled in office and residential space.  Capital Plaza I & II could have been a single 450' tower instead of two buildings.  CNL I & II could have been a single 450' tower as well.  I can go on.  Orlando was neck and neck with office space downtown with Miami's CBD a few years ago, and had more office space downtown that Tampa and maybe still does.  Adventist Health could have built downtown, but they chose Altamonte.  Darden could have built downtown but they chose  where they did.   It just is what it is.  This isn't Midtown Manhattan where all of the publishing giants congregate next to each other, or The Chicago Loop, where many of the big banks and exchanges are located.

My post is way too long...

[JFW657]

45 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

"I would really like a 60 story building downtown.."

"I don't necessarily want to be like New York City or Chicago..."

"If only they waved the FAA height regulation..."

What were you saying about flying unicorns?

Funny, I didn't see anything about jobs until I started posting. I read this for weeks before I posted anything. 

Nothing about jobs. It's all buildings buildings buildings. It's like a blog version of Zillow. Figure out what really constitutes an urban community. It's not buildings.

Don't tell me you "get" it.  You are insecure about were you live and need some type of validation. Grow up.

 

You still haven't answered my question.

How are you trying, as you claimed, to "make things better"?

What exactly are you doing?

[dcluley98]

7 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

My post is way too long...

 

Nope. 'Zactly. We all may disagree at times, but this is a forum, not a single solution. We collectively discuss and report on the growth of our city, and provide details and factual basis. 

Thanks, JRS2

Edited February 15, 2018 by dcluley98

[jrs2]

8 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Nope. 'Zactly. We all may disagree at times, but this is a forum, not single solution. We collectively discuss and report on the growth of our city, and provide details and factual basis. 

Thanks, JRS2

Thank you, Dcluley98.  Damn, you are quick!

But you know what, I think I see his point but I think he is misreading the intent of peoples' comments.  He's right about job growth.  But we've reported about KPM&G, Verizon, Deloitte, etc., coming into the market.  My thing is that a new tower (like Modera or CitiTower or CSP) signifies major progress; office, social club, residential.  And let's not downplay ever the importance of these social clubs.  I'm a member of Citrus Club/ Clubcorp and they've got the top floor of the Aon- ah, I hate that... Big Stan in Chicago.  So, when I make a reservation to eat there I will talk up this place and I assure you, some of those well healed business people will do the same when they come on convention or visit the Mouse House.  That is good marketing.  And that will help Modera and U-Club in the same way; get the big money people down here and get more exposure for downtown Orlando.

[aent]

38 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

"I would really like a 60 story building downtown.."

"I don't necessarily want to be like New York City or Chicago..."

"If only they waved the FAA height regulation..."

What were you saying about flying unicorns?

Funny, I didn't see anything about jobs until I started posting. I read this for weeks before I posted anything. 

Nothing about jobs. It's all buildings buildings buildings. It's like a blog version of Zillow. Figure out what really constitutes an urban community. It's not buildings.

Don't tell me you "get" it.  You are insecure about were you live and need some type of validation. Grow up.

 

I think you might have missed a number of threads. There was lots of talk about jobs in the creative village thread, lake nona, amazon hq2, etc.

And yeah, I still don't believe having a low wage average is a problem for a place like Orlando, its inevitable as the customer service of Disney, Universal, SeaWorld, and the myriad of restaurants literally depends on it. I view unemployment as a big problem, with all of those here it should be easy for almost anyone to get a job. And Orlando's unemployment rate, from my understanding, is excellent. A quick google search indicates we are among the lowest in Florida, and below the average of all but 5 states. Your strategy of firing low wage earners and trying to eliminate those jobs will hurt that statistic, and IMO that is a much worse statistic to have low, and unlike the low wages with the tourism sector, that wouldn't be explainable. And you still haven't explained how eliminating some of our low wage jobs will create high wage jobs. It doesn't work like that. Infact, to the contrary, as our unemployment rate is so low, the people on the bottom will make a little more as they are in demand. Paying minimum wage will cause someone else to take that labor at a buck above. Yeah, its not going to get to high paying jobs that way, but its better for those on the bottom to have lots of competition for their labor, even if its unskilled. I think we recently had WDW implement a new higher internal minimum wage for its employees, likely because they couldn't attract and keep people anymore because our unemployment rate is so low.

Orlando is tough to get tall buildings in, the problem is land is cheap, we have tons of nearby towns and smaller cities that are appealing to be in, and in the modern day, many companies simply don't wish to locate downtown, unless is specifically for collaboration with other companies downtown (i.e, NYC). There's a strong preference for suburban campuses these days, which is why even when we landed Burnham Institute and company, they chose Lake Nona, they made it clear they weren't interested in downtown. And downtown in Orlando also has no boundaries to prevent its growth in any direction... All of South Florida has the ocean to the east, the undevelopable everglades to the west. Most places have at least something in a direction, Orlando just has buildable land in all directions. There's a variety of other factors as well, and its hard to tell if we can overcome them, but it is tough. I like Orlando even if it doesn't get a new tallest building in my lifetime, even though I want it to.

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Funny, I didn't see anything about jobs until I started posting. I read this for weeks before I posted anything. 

Perhaps you need to take another look then.  You may have been reading this forum for a few weeks.  Some of us have been here for more than a decade. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by prahaboheme

[alex]

15 hours ago, Dale said:

...a muscular skyline to match...

That's...quite a visual.

14 hours ago, aent said:

And yeah, I still don't believe having a low wage average is a problem for a place like Orlando, its inevitable as the customer service of Disney, Universal, SeaWorld, and the myriad of restaurants literally depends on it. I view unemployment as a big problem, with all of those here it should be easy for almost anyone to get a job. And Orlando's unemployment rate, from my understanding, is excellent...

Low unemployment is great, but I can't help but mention one more time: Minimum wage just rose to $8.25/hr this year, which is still short of the $11-15/hr that's actually needed to live in Central Florida.

Somebody working 40 hours/week at minimum wage makes $17,160 a year. Meanwhile, Disney parks made $4.56 billion in revenue in Q4 of 2017, up 6%; Universal parks made $1.5 billion in revenue in Q4 2017, up 10%. At the same time, we're supposed to forget that Disney laid off 250 higher-earning tech workers in 2015 to replace them with cheaper H-1B visa workers? Our area's major tourism employers are exploiting us, and our elected officials won't protect us because they're too concerned about visitors numbers and funneling taxes into the Convention Center. The tourism industry is booming (physically and financially), but the on-the-ground people doing the work are completely left out of the profits.

[AndyPok1]

I don't disagree that minimum-wage jobs need to be higher paid, but that isn't going to change the fact that they're minimum-wage and thus depress the overall average wage.

I'm not going to speak in regards to the H-1B stuff, but the Disney IT presence in this region is booming and continually expanding.  The entire truth never came out.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, alex said:

That's...quite a visual.

Low unemployment is great, but I can't help but mention one more time: Minimum wage just rose to $8.25/hr this year, which is still short of the $11-15/hr that's actually needed to live in Central Florida.

Somebody working 40 hours/week at minimum wage makes $17,160 a year. Meanwhile, Disney parks made $4.56 billion in revenue in Q4 of 2017, up 6%; Universal parks made $1.5 billion in revenue in Q4 2017, up 10%. At the same time, we're supposed to forget that Disney laid off 250 higher-earning tech workers in 2015 to replace them with cheaper H-1B visa workers? Our area's major tourism employers are exploiting us, and our elected officials won't protect us because they're too concerned about visitors numbers and funneling taxes into the Convention Center. The tourism industry is booming (physically and financially), but the on-the-ground people doing the work are completely left out of the profits.

If I recall, Disney did that to retaliate against Non-PC Principal, or at least that was their PR angle so they wouldn't eat sh it about it.

[alex]

Ah, thanks for clarifying the visa thing.

In general, I'm just saying that we need to 1) build an environment that supports low-income people, 2) attract higher-paying jobs, and 3) offer opportunities for upward mobility. I think points 2 and 3 are being addressed by Creative Village, new K-8 schools, Lake Nona, and other programs—I just don't see any earnest efforts for point 1.

[uncreativeusername]

16 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Perhaps you need to take another look then.  You may have been reading this forum for a few weeks.  Some of us have been here for more than a decade. 

Member since 2005, and a lurker before that.

The longest I've participated in any sort of online community. Have I seen a lot of outlandish things on these boards over the years? Certainly. Are there some repetitive tropes that annoy me? Sure. Have I seen even more insightful and productive conversations on these boards? Definitely. 

You know what I've also seen, quite consistently, given that this is an internet forum? Generally respectful debate, even when opinions differ - which they often do. 

I am glad to be a part of this community. And I don't particularly give a damn about someone else erroneously telling us what we think. Because this isn't middle school and we don't have anything to defend. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by uncreativeusername

[bqknight]

As this gets discussed - an article in the Orlando Sentinel popped up on my newsfeed that highlighted the many professions that earn higher than the national average. 

[shardoon]

32 minutes ago, bqknight said:

As this gets discussed - an article in the Orlando Sentinel popped up on my newsfeed that highlighted the many professions that earn higher than the national average. 

Exactly, Lockheed with their their recently announced expansion comes to mind...... and they should be good paying jobs too. 

[I am Reality]

1 hour ago, shardoon said:

Exactly, Lockheed with their their recently announced expansion comes to mind...... and they should be good paying jobs too. 

[I am Reality]

Just now, I am Reality said:

1 hour ago, shardoon said:

Exactly, Lockheed with their their recently announced expansion comes to mind...... and they should be good paying jobs too. 

 

2 hours ago, bqknight said:

As this gets discussed - an article in the Orlando Sentinel popped up on my newsfeed that highlighted the many professions that earn higher than the national average. 

Tuesday's Sentinel: "Central FL below national average wages, with the the exception of waiter/waitresses and cooks/fast food workers."

Today's Sentinel: "Orlando first time home buyers fall below income needs, data shows..." Orlando first time buyers in Dec earned about $500 less than the $40,184 they need to qualify for a mortgage on an entry-level house with a price of $195,000, according to an Orlando affordability report using federal guidelines."

This is just stunning. First time home buyers in CA struggle to buy $800k entry level houses. An average Orlando worker literally doesn't qualify for a mortgage on a $195k house. 

2 hours ago, uncreativeusername said:

Member since 2005, and a lurker before that.

The longest I've participated in any sort of online community. Have I seen a lot of outlandish things on these boards over the years? Certainly. Are there some repetitive tropes that annoy me? Sure. Have I seen even more insightful and productive conversations on these boards? Definitely. 

You know what I've also seen, quite consistently, given that this is an internet forum? Generally respectful debate, even when opinions differ - which they often do. 

I am glad to be a part of this community. And I don't particularly give a damn about someone else erroneously telling us what we think. Because this isn't middle school and we don't have anything to defend. 

Agreed. I am waiting for an apology from the person who made the cheap "tall building"/manhood joke and the one questioning my motivations. 

[JFW657]

15 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Agreed. I am waiting for an apology from the person who made the cheap "tall building"/manhood joke and the one questioning my motivations. 

It was a joke. So.....

If you don't get the pop culture reference in the meme, you're going to have to watch the movie "Stripes".

Or just find the clip on YouTube.

Either way, don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.

[I am Reality]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

It was a joke. So.....

If you don't get the pop culture reference in the meme, you're going to have to watch the movie "Stripes".

Or just find the clip on YouTube.

Fair enough.

I will apologize for some of the things I said. I am seriously disappointed that people aren't laser-focused on low wages.  People here STILL deny there is a problem (despite the data and articles and simple observation).  It is such an obvious problem to me, I honestly don't understand how other don't see it.  In my mind, all the other stuff is totally inconsequential.  I make a very good living myself.  But I see a lot of people struggling here than in other places (including the big cities that have pockets of adject poverty; I've seen some real hellholes).  That is poor urban development.  And this is an urban development website.

Having said that, I will still posting.  I'm not here to crap on anyone's big-city aspirations. I think I raised a very important issue though.  And I hope you will give it more thought. This city can be great if we get our priorities straight.

 

 

1 minute ago, I am Reality said:

Fair enough.

I will apologize for some of the things I said. I am seriously disappointed that people aren't laser-focused on low wages.  People here STILL deny there is a problem (despite the data and articles and simple observation).  It is such an obvious problem to me, I honestly don't understand how other don't see it.  In my mind, all the other stuff is totally inconsequential.  I make a very good living myself.  But I see a lot of people struggling here than in other places (including the big cities that have pockets of adject poverty; I've seen some real hellholes).  That is poor urban development.  And this is an urban development website.

Having said that, I will still posting.  I'm not here to crap on anyone's big-city aspirations. I think I raised a very important issue though.  And I hope you will give it more thought. This city can be great if we get our priorities straight.

 

 

I meant to say I will stop posting. Typo.

[JFW657]

33 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Fair enough.

I will apologize for some of the things I said. I am seriously disappointed that people aren't laser-focused on low wages.  People here STILL deny there is a problem (despite the data and articles and simple observation).  It is such an obvious problem to me, I honestly don't understand how other don't see it.  In my mind, all the other stuff is totally inconsequential.  I make a very good living myself.  But I see a lot of people struggling here than in other places (including the big cities that have pockets of adject poverty; I've seen some real hellholes).  That is poor urban development.  And this is an urban development website.

Having said that, I will still posting.  I'm not here to crap on anyone's big-city aspirations. I think I raised a very important issue though.  And I hope you will give it more thought. This city can be great if we get our priorities straight.

I meant to say I will stop posting. Typo.

No need to stop posting. I think there is just a miscommunication going on here.

We all agree with you about the need for good jobs, but there are other, more fun things to discuss here too. And I think most of us are here just to enjoy discussing a common interest with other folks who enjoy or have an interest in the same subject.

But by all means, don't feel as though you have to stop posting or your opinions are not welcome here. 

[aent]

8 hours ago, alex said:

Low unemployment is great, but I can't help but mention one more time: Minimum wage just rose to $8.25/hr this year, which is still short of the $11-15/hr that's actually needed to live in Central Florida.

Somebody working 40 hours/week at minimum wage makes $17,160 a year. Meanwhile, Disney parks made $4.56 billion in revenue in Q4 of 2017, up 6%; Universal parks made $1.5 billion in revenue in Q4 2017, up 10%. At the same time, we're supposed to forget that Disney laid off 250 higher-earning tech workers in 2015 to replace them with cheaper H-1B visa workers? Our area's major tourism employers are exploiting us, and our elected officials won't protect us because they're too concerned about visitors numbers and funneling taxes into the Convention Center. The tourism industry is booming (physically and financially), but the on-the-ground people doing the work are completely left out of the profits.

Its important to realize that, realistically, no matter what we make minimum wage, there is going to be a subset of people who do not make the "magic number" required to live here. This experiment of raising minimum wage has been tried, and simpily resulted in a few things, especially when done by regulation:

1) Some people lose their jobs or have ours cut, if the employer determines they are not essential and aren't bringing in enough profit, those people are in an even worse situation then before.

2) Price of goods goes up to support the higher wages. If you have money, and are in the middle class, you may not think its significant, but it often can take up the entirety of the minimum wage increase, so the people are in no better shape then before..

3) The middle class typically does not get a similiar increase when the minimum wage goes up, especially drastically, and thus, the middle class is brought down closer to the lower class.

As an example, I own a small business, and some of my workers are lower paid, service workers, and some have worked their way up, starting at $9/hr to $20/hr after working their butt off for a few years and showing me their value (while others have not had similar increases). If you say I have to pay everyone $15/hr minimum, I literally cannot afford to increase my $20/hr people, especially with me having to increase all my lower paid people, and even if I did figure out a way to increase them, it'd likely only be $1/hr or so. So they'd go from making $11/hr above minimum wage down to $5/hr above minimum wage, and having to deal with the aforementioned higher prices to support it.

There are lots of other small affects as well, more internships go from paid minimum wage to unpaid (which is better for the intern?). Maybe you'll slightly help the very small number of minimum wage earners out there, but you're hurting those making above minimum wage, and the middle class. And then you're also helping the upper class the most, as they know how to capture the money from the lower and lower-middle class the best, those people don't save any money, so they can typically fully make up for their losses provided by the increase. Thats why companies like Walmart, who cater to the poor, are some of the strongest proponents of minimum wage increases.

To your other point, talking about the revenue of Disney and Universal's properties, thats quite honestly irrelevant. Their are players in our entertainment industry who don't do nearly as well as Disney and Universal and can't afford to pay these numbers. Places like Fun Spot likely would be devastated by those types of increases, especially not coming organically where their parks are actually growing. Would it be fair for those working at Fun Spot to make significantly less then those working the same job at Disney, simply because Disney is more profitable?

And the parks have shared some of their profits with the on the grounds people with the current boom, bonuses were handed out, and wages at Disney and Universal were increases. Yeah, not by dollars per hour, but it was something for everyone.

A few other points:

- The theme parks also literally import young and low wage workers. The Disney College Program brings in a lot of people, and pays them near minimum wage, bringing down Orlando's average. Universal does the same. If you talk to anyone in that program, they're usually happy just to get into the program. The people are travelling to Orlando to take these near minimum wage jobs. Infact, as the name of the program implies, many are educated or getting an education, don't really need the money (parents are supporting them), but they view it as a good thing to have on their resume and also view it as a paid vacation, literally. Orlando's a bit unique in that we can literally go on YouTube and search for these minimum wage workers talking about how excited they are for that opportunity. Lets not take that away from them. And lets keep in mind that significantly effects the Orlando statistics.

- The Orlando tourist minimum wage jobs have lots of "hidden benefits". Disney employees have the equivalent of a free annual pass, a discount card throughout the park, and are given free guest tickets for their friends and family. And these benefits are real to them, they take advantage of them. I know Disney also has private family retreat locations that are available throughout the year for all employees, and has tons of catered parties/events that employees are free to bring their family and friends to, I have several friends who have brought me to them. This does result in significant quality of life improvements for these low wage earners, and reductions in costs for them as well. Even if they're not allowed to sell them, its not uncommon for them to be "bartered" to friends... I'll give you a day pass you take my family out to dinner, I give your family passes a couple times, you take us on vacation with you. I've done that with my friends, its a win-win situation for them. Also, tourist industry workers typically get lots of unreported tips, further screwing up the aforementioned statistics.

- Our elected officials don't want to "protect us" from low paying tourism jobs because the employees are typically happy, and the clients they serve are out of area visitors throwing tons of money into our economy and paying tons of tax dollars, giving us improvements like DPAC, Citrus Bowl, Amway Center, OCCC, etc without having to raise the taxes on those that actually live here to provide those amenities. I think they have backbone for saying no and not doing what sounds good but isn't actually good.

 

4 hours ago, alex said:

In general, I'm just saying that we need to 1) build an environment that supports low-income people, 2) attract higher-paying jobs, and 3) offer opportunities for upward mobility. I think points 2 and 3 are being addressed by Creative Village, new K-8 schools, Lake Nona, and other programs—I just don't see any earnest efforts for point 1.

I think Orlando is already pretty solid on your #1 point. Orlando has a relatively cheap cost of living, and a significant portion of our low income people sure don't look like low income people from other areas. There's room for some minor improvements, but its mostly just that, minor improvements (in my eyes, mainly in the area of finding ways to fight crime, without falling into a normal typical traps of hurting the poor while doing that).

 

54 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Fair enough.

I will apologize for some of the things I said. I am seriously disappointed that people aren't laser-focused on low wages.  People here STILL deny there is a problem (despite the data and articles and simple observation).  It is such an obvious problem to me, I honestly don't understand how other don't see it.  In my mind, all the other stuff is totally inconsequential.  I make a very good living myself.  But I see a lot of people struggling here than in other places (including the big cities that have pockets of adject poverty; I've seen some real hellholes).  That is poor urban development.  And this is an urban development website.

Having said that, I will still posting.  I'm not here to crap on anyone's big-city aspirations. I think I raised a very important issue though.  And I hope you will give it more thought. This city can be great if we get our priorities straight.

 

 

I meant to say I will stop posting. Typo.

Its important to realize that the same data can literally bring us to different conclusions. I don't think anyone is disputing the data you brought to the table (I'm surely not). And if history teaches us anything, its that everything has unintended consequences. Its really, really hard to predict what would happen for each change that is made because the world has so many variables. (The obvious urban planning example is that is seems relatively "obvious" the solution to traffic problems is to add additional lanes to get people where they want to go, but as many of us know, that often doesn't work... it creates more trips, discourages mass transit, etc). Hopefully everyone's goal of the interactions here is to learn new things, be open to changing one's mind, and coming up with some creative solutions (and I believe we have had members of this forum be part of the city's team, by part of developer's teams, etc, so we may be making a difference, providing some "free" consulting, in addition to it being entertainment for us (it is for me))

I hope you don't stop posting, because even though I may disagree with you (although I do agree with several of your points as well), you brought a lively discussion, which contributes a lot to the community, and making sure all the pros and cons on this very important issue are discussed. While to you, its a laser-focused issue, to me, its not... I'd LIKE wages to be higher (organically), but I don't want to give up anything we have that causes it to be low, because I do feel that it provides tons of benefits to the people of Orlando. I will say I feel you've changed my priorities a little bit.. previously would have said my top priorities for Orlando is 1) Transportation, 2) Crime and police related issues, 3) Creating more high paying jobs, and you might have convinced me to reverse me 2 and 3. You also made me consider my metric for success on that #3, which I now must say I feel should be Year Over Year growth of high paying jobs, and not looking at the percentage or median salary because of the unique situation here in Orlando.

[dcluley98]

Well said. each person has their own ideas of what is most important, and "well paying jobs" is probably high on the list, but there are multiple other factors that lead to a well balanced city and we all have differing opinions on which are more important. I think we all welcome reasoned debate. It is all relative to personal perspective. I would tend to rank:

Education
Jobs/Commerce
Affordable Housing
Transportation/Mobility
Parks and Community Spaces
Arts/Sports
Food 

Intertwine into that local flavor and the environment we grew up in and are trying to preserve. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by dcluley98

[jrs2]

18 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Agreed. I am waiting for an apology from the person who made the cheap "tall building"/manhood joke and the one questioning my motivations. 

Um, aren't you the one who said that we all want tall buildings to compensate for lack of major companies downtown more or less?

17 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Fair enough.

I will apologize for some of the things I said. I am seriously disappointed that people aren't laser-focused on low wages.  People here STILL deny there is a problem (despite the data and articles and simple observation).  It is such an obvious problem to me, I honestly don't understand how other don't see it.  In my mind, all the other stuff is totally inconsequential.  I make a very good living myself.  But I see a lot of people struggling here than in other places (including the big cities that have pockets of adject poverty; I've seen some real hellholes).  That is poor urban development.  And this is an urban development website.

Having said that, I will still posting.  I'm not here to crap on anyone's big-city aspirations. I think I raised a very important issue though.  And I hope you will give it more thought. This city can be great if we get our priorities straight.

 

 

I meant to say I will stop posting. Typo.

I don't think you should stop posting, for whatever that's worth.  My motto is "it's should've been 10 stories taller" and it always will be because I've got Windy City blood running through my veins.

^^

To Aent:  OMG what an essay!  More power to you.