Vertical Medical City | 40-Story Medical High Rise [Proposed]

[I am Reality]

42 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

I'll feed the troll.

What better way would you like to use the space while promoting a connective tissue between the CBD and Parramore sides of our downtown?  I'm all for criticizing, but have solutions.  Massive parking lots as were the previous use were an artificial boundary.  Because of our water table, doing a cap would be cost prohibitive.  

I'm really a troll because I think hanging out under a highway underpass is a horrible idea? For real? As for solutions..did you see my comments about the plentiful, useable land downtown available for more park space?  Every city has highways running through them. Why do I care if they provide some kind of "barrier"? Does stop other cities from carrying on.

is this website to cheerlead Orlando or to make it a better place? Are we capable of distinguishing between good ideas and bad? I don't want a park under an underpass. That is just stupid.

And I still don't understand everyone's obsession with tall buildings here. You San have all the tall buildings you want, but without good jobs they will be empty. It's putting the cart before the horse. And developers will not build anything until there is demand. You, me and the guy next-door can't change that. How about we start obsessing over good paying jobs?  Then we can build all the tall buildings everyone seems so impressed with. 

 

[prahaboheme]

Highway barriers actually do stop cities from reaching their greater potential. It's why so many have either submerged them (like Boston), eliminated some of them completely (like San Fran and D.C.), or looked for creative solutions to lessen their impact (like the examples Spenser shared). 

I don't understand why this would be considered stupid.

Edited February 13, 2018 by prahaboheme

[sunshine]

According to OBJ:

• Tower A: Critical care tower of 300 feet
• Tower B: Non-critical care tower of 540 feet
• Tower C: Life tower of 450 feet

 

[I am Reality]

4 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Highway barriers actually do stop cities from reaching their greater potential. It's why so many have either submerged them (like Boston), eliminated some of them completely (like San Fran and D.C.), or looked for creative solutions to lessen their impact (like the examples Spenser shared). 

I don't understand why this would be considered stupid.

Are you seriously suggesting the I4 overpass is holding Orlando back?  And not the lack of high-wage jobs?  The commercial area of downtown is essentially on the  eastside of I-4.  The eastern side is pretty sparse and no where near filled in.  There is tons of land for development on the east side.  

Many cities have highways in their downtown areas. Atlanta has a ginormous highway right in the middle of its downtown. It still grew.  So does Los Angeles.  And Miami.  And Seattle. Philadelphia has 2 enormous highways plowing right through downtown. They did not matter growth-wise even one little bit. Office-space demand was high and developers have built right, left and everywhere in between.

Developers will build anywhere, if demand is high enough. 

Philadelphia is a great example of my argument. It grew high-paying jobs after its economy went bust with the closing of the Naval Shipyard. The economy was devastated.  Home-grown Comcast started taking advantage of the well-educated local population (2 local Ivy Leagues and multiple other great research universities) and it is gigantic now.

Want to talk about "tall" buildings?  Comcast didn't build just 1 office tower near 1k feet. If built 2.  

That's how buildings are built.  Jobs first.

[uncreativeusername]

13 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Are you seriously suggesting the I4 overpass is holding Orlando back?  And not the lack of high-wage jobs?  The commercial area of downtown is essentially on the  eastside of I-4.  The eastern side is pretty sparse and no where near filled in.  There is tons of land for development on the east side.  

Many cities have highways in their downtown areas. Atlanta has a ginormous highway right in the middle of its downtown. It still grew.  So does Los Angeles.  And Miami.  And Seattle. Philadelphia has 2 enormous highways plowing right through downtown. They did not matter growth-wise even one little bit. Office-space demand was high and developers have built right, left and everywhere in between.

Developers will build anywhere, if demand is high enough. 

Philadelphia is a great example of my argument. It grew high-paying jobs after its economy went bust with the closing of the Naval Shipyard. The economy was devastated.  Home-grown Comcast started taking advantage of the well-educated local population (2 local Ivy Leagues and multiple other great research universities) and it is gigantic now.

Want to talk about "tall" buildings?  Comcast didn't build just 1 office tower near 1k feet. If built 2.  

That's how buildings are built.  Jobs first.

Why is everything an either/or? You're creating a false argument.

All true statements

-Orlando would benefit greatly from both more and higher paying jobs.  The city/county should be doing everything it can to encourage this.

-Paramore was f*cked over by the construction of I-4, attempting to undo that damage is a good thing.

-There are currently parking lots under I-4.  A park is an improvement.

-It isn't an absurd idea, as directly referenced in the Curbed article someone posted on the last page. So what if it's a little gritty? Controlled/safe grit is an attribute most real cities share.

-With Amway/Orlando City/UCF on the east side of I-4, Orlando certainly benefits from better connecting east and west. Especially as UCF downtown is one of the most important strategies to helping us grow innovation/our employment base in the city.

-Orlando would still benefit greatly from both more and higher paying jobs.  The city/county should be doing everything it can to encourage this.

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by uncreativeusername

[prahaboheme]

25 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Are you seriously suggesting the I4 overpass is holding Orlando back?  And not the lack of high-wage jobs?  The commercial area of downtown is essentially on the  eastside of I-4.  The eastern side is pretty sparse and no where near filled in.  There is tons of land for development on the east side.  

Many cities have highways in their downtown areas. Atlanta has a ginormous highway right in the middle of its downtown. It still grew.  So does Los Angeles.  And Miami.  And Seattle. Philadelphia has 2 enormous highways plowing right through downtown. They did not matter growth-wise even one little bit. Office-space demand was high and developers have built right, left and everywhere in between.

Developers will build anywhere, if demand is high enough. 

Philadelphia is a great example of my argument. It grew high-paying jobs after its economy went bust with the closing of the Naval Shipyard. The economy was devastated.  Home-grown Comcast started taking advantage of the well-educated local population (2 local Ivy Leagues and multiple other great research universities) and it is gigantic now.

Want to talk about "tall" buildings?  Comcast didn't build just 1 office tower near 1k feet. If built 2.  

That's how buildings are built.  Jobs first.

Yes, I am suggesting this.  There are many barriers  between Parramore and downtown, some are physical like I-4, some of economic, others are social, cultural, and historical.  Anyway, I think what you said was that the highway underpass parks were "stupid" because you just don't like them.  You're entitled to an opinion.

[I am Reality]

32 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Yes, I am suggesting this.  There are many barriers  between Parramore and downtown, some are physical like I-4, some of economic, others are social, cultural, and historical.  Anyway, I think what you said was that the highway underpass parks were "stupid" because you just don't like them.  You're entitled to an opinon

Let's not pretend anyone cares about Parramore. It's a absolute shame that the soccer stadium and bars and micro-breweries have been built there.  The time for concern about Parramore has come & gone. The overpass is small compared to the way that neighborhood has been exploited. 

[dcluley98]

Well, you asked why the Under-I was important, and we explained it to you in a detailed manner, and then you proceeded to imply that we all claimed I-4 was what was holding Orlando back. Frankly, I am done trying to explain the myriad of urban planning nuances to somebody who only wishes to employ circuitous logic and fallacies that all point to the same argument. 

[prahaboheme]

4 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Let's not pretend anyone cares about Parramore. It's a absolute shame that the soccer stadium and bars and micro-breweries have been built there.  The time for concern about Parramore has come & gone. The overpass is small compared to the way that neighborhood has been exploited. 

This doesn't address your initial comment that the underpass parks are stupid, despite examples provided to you to the contrary. Is this statement a way to change the subject?

[Dale]

1 hour ago, sunshine said:

According to OBJ:

• Tower A: Critical care tower of 300 feet
• Tower B: Non-critical care tower of 540 feet
• Tower C: Life tower of 450 feet

 

sunshine keeping his eye on the ball!

[I am Reality]

Just now, dcluley98 said:

Well, you asked why the Under-I was important, and we explained it to you in a detailed manner, and then you proceeded to imply that we all claimed I-4 was what was holding Orlando back. Frankly, I am done trying to explain the myriad of urban planning nuances to somebody who only wishes to employ circuitous logic and fallacies that all point to the same argument. 

Thank you for your unban planning expertise. If you think putting a park under a highway underpass is that important, so be it.  I prefer that money go to something worthwhile, like financial incentives for tech startups or tax breaks for relocation to downtown. I am single-minded about good paying jobs. No one cares about an underpass park. It's not "cool", trendy, fun, appealing or even remotely nice. It's concrete on the ground & concrete above. It would be dark and noisy.  Total waste of $.

[uncreativeusername]

12 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Frankly, I am done trying to explain the myriad of urban planning nuances to somebody who only wishes to employ circuitous logic and fallacies that all point to the same argument. 

To be fair, didn't he say he was a lawyer?

Edited February 13, 2018 by uncreativeusername

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

I'll feed the troll.

What better way would you like to use the space while promoting a connective tissue between the CBD and Parramore sides of our downtown?  I'm all for criticizing, but have solutions.  Massive parking lots as were the previous use were an artificial boundary.  Because of our water table, doing a cap would be cost prohibitive.  

You know...driving down Garland, I have to say, lately, you could see many of the new pylons for the new section of I-4 and they are way better looking- and taller, then the old ones.

[sunshine]

Buried I-4

[I am Reality]

6 minutes ago, uncreativeusername said:

To be fair, didn't he say he was a lawyer?

I've been perfectly clear. What about "jobs jobs jobs" is so confusing?   I like good paying jobs.  Orlando NEEDS good paying jobs. You guys can dream about 70 story buildings and fight for basketball courts under a highway overpass all you want. Wake me when something is done for better-paying jobs. 

[AndyPok1]

10 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

You know...driving down Garland, I have to say, lately, you could see many of the new pylons for the new section of I-4 and they are way better looking- and taller, then the old ones.

Yup!  I'm very excited to see how it turns out.  I'm just sad that the basketball courts weren't open during the 5 years I lived in 55W.

[jrs2]

10 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I've been perfectly clear. What about "jobs jobs jobs" is so confusing?   I like good paying jobs.  Orlando NEEDS good paying jobs. You guys can dream about 70 story buildings and fight for basketball courts under a highway overpass all you want. Wake me when something is done for better-paying jobs. 

Ok, so I liked your posts because you make a very valid point about bringing in new jobs. 

I believe the Under I-4 project is one of those catalysts that reclaims land from the expressway and puts it to good or better civic use, which would add an element in attracting new residents and/or businesses downtown... if that's why they're doing it.

But there is a history here that everyone should acknowledge, so, let's back this up a bit: 

I-4 was built in the '60's.  Next, Amway Center was built and marketed as a catalyst for Parramore redevelopment.  It's a monolith with no street side retail incorporated within it.  Next, the church didn't want to sell for the soccer stadium, so The City decided to cut off Parramore St. instead with the new stadium by moving it west.  Them The Magic tore down the garage which had several African-American owned businesses within it.  

None of these moves have benefited the African-American community in Parramore.; they've hurt it even more.  New employers on the west side of I-4 will help that community a lot more than a park under I-4- that is, if the Under I-4 project is being pushed as the "reparation," if you will, to the Parramore community, for all of the past sins against it.  Because, if it is, as some suggested here already, then it's no more than throwing them a roll of Charmin after taking a big wet diarrhea dump on their collective front porch. It's an insult.

You are right that The City doesn't give a rip about Parramore.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I've been perfectly clear. What about "jobs jobs jobs" is so confusing?   I like good paying jobs.  Orlando NEEDS good paying jobs. You guys can dream about 70 story buildings and fight for basketball courts under a highway overpass all you want. Wake me when something is done for better-paying jobs. 

Why can't we have both? How is spending what amounts to chicken feed on some basketball courts, soccer pitches a bit of landscaping and some lighting, contrary to the goal of creating new jobs?

Cities have always been concerned with beautification and making their central cores more pleasant and enjoyable places to spend time.

Plus, if you want to attract new jobs downtown, little touches like urban parks and the creative uses of urban land, go a long way towards convincing companies to choose a particular town as a place to locate.

And finally, nobody here is pining away for 70 story buildings in DTO. It would be an absurd thing to waste time on and nobody expects that it's even remotely possible. But it's not all that outlandish to hope for one or two towers on about the scale of a couple which grace Tampa's skyline.

[I am Reality]

4 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Why can't we have both? How is spending what amounts to chicken feed on some basketball courts, soccer pitches a bit of landscaping and some lighting, contrary to the goal of creating new jobs?

Cities have always been concerned with beautification and making their central cores more pleasant and enjoyable places to spend time.

Plus, if you want to attract new jobs downtown, little touches like urban parks and the creative uses of urban land, go a long way towards convincing companies to choose a particular town as a place to locate.

And finally, nobody here is pining away for 70 story buildings in DTO. It would be an absurd thing to waste time on and nobody expects that it's even remotely possible. But it's not all that outlandish to hope for one or two towers on about the scale of a couple which grace Tampa's skyline.

That is a reasonable position.  I have no problem with that. My point is that there is a reason we don't have more vibrant downtown and taller buildings. It's a function of demand.

I have many (literally dozens) of friends who have moved from the area for work or school. They are gone and will never return. There is a brain drain for professionals. There is an economic void here that other places just don't have.  It is unique to Orlando (and probably Vegas).  When I lived elsewhere, people did not look favorably at Orlando.  It kind of has a joke reputation. I don't think they myself and I know we can do better.

I look around here and see so many people struggling just to get by. They are good, hardworking people. This morning's Sentinel website had a headline about Orlando's wages being below the national average (expect cooks & waiters)

People here deserve better.  I see a lot misplaced priorities, like the convention center.  I am fine if trade shows go to Las Vegas rather than here.  We can actually stand up & say we don't want more of those jobs.  

It's not a race to the bottom.

We need to find the political will to improve the quality of jobs here.  I am sure everyone would agree. 

[jrs2]

29 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

That is a reasonable position.  I have no problem with that. My point is that there is a reason we don't have more vibrant downtown and taller buildings. It's a function of demand.

I have many (literally dozens) of friends who have moved from the area for work or school. They are gone and will never return. There is a brain drain for professionals. There is an economic void here that other places just don't have.  It is unique to Orlando (and probably Vegas).  When I lived elsewhere, people did not look favorably at Orlando.  It kind of has a joke reputation. I don't think they myself and I know we can do better.

I look around here and see so many people struggling just to get by. They are good, hardworking people. This morning's Sentinel website had a headline about Orlando's wages being below the national average (expect cooks & waiters)

People here deserve better.  I see a lot misplaced priorities, like the convention center.  I am fine if trade shows go to Las Vegas rather than here.  We can actually stand up & say we don't want more of those jobs.  

It's not a race to the bottom.

We need to find the political will to improve the quality of jobs here.  I am sure everyone would agree. 

Yeah, that was the point of Medical City and Creative Village, i.e., to lure new business and diversify.   

Medical City/ Lake Nona is doing...pretty good.  Not so much along the lines of a bunch of foreign money medical industry investment, rather, with other businesses, like Amazon, KPM&G, USTA, hotels, office space, the new Drive Shack, the planned resort, etc.  If UF, Nemours, and the VA are considered foreign, then, just those so far. 

And Creative Village hasn't produced any private investment ala job or company offices yet.  And UCF delaying construction of their classroom building doesn't help matters any.  UCF has to get up and running for this to grow, and quickly.

To be fair, the sports stadiums too.  

[smileguy]

It's all part of an ecosystem.  You can't say "we don't want quality-of-life improvements, we need high wage jobs!" as though they're mutually exclusive. In fact, quality of life improvements, including a basketball court a couple of blocks from your downtown apartment or a performing arts center, help support bringing high wage jobs to an area.

Do we need to improve the education of our workforce? Yes. Do we need to have economic incentives to lure big fish? Yes... and we do.  But we also need to be a desirable community for the current residents and new residents to want to live in. 

To your point on Brain Drain - we do lose a lot of UCF graduates, but we keep a lot too. It seems like we're in the middle of the pack nationally keeping college graduates.  https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/03/which-metros-are-best-at-keeping-their-college-graduates/473604/

[AndyPok1]

3 hours ago, I am Reality said:

That is a reasonable position.  I have no problem with that. My point is that there is a reason we don't have more vibrant downtown and taller buildings. It's a function of demand.

I have many (literally dozens) of friends who have moved from the area for work or school. They are gone and will never return. There is a brain drain for professionals. There is an economic void here that other places just don't have.  It is unique to Orlando (and probably Vegas).  When I lived elsewhere, people did not look favorably at Orlando.  It kind of has a joke reputation. I don't think they myself and I know we can do better.

I look around here and see so many people struggling just to get by. They are good, hardworking people. This morning's Sentinel website had a headline about Orlando's wages being below the national average (expect cooks & waiters)

People here deserve better.  I see a lot misplaced priorities, like the convention center.  I am fine if trade shows go to Las Vegas rather than here.  We can actually stand up & say we don't want more of those jobs.  

It's not a race to the bottom.

We need to find the political will to improve the quality of jobs here.  I am sure everyone would agree. 

So here's my issue.

We have a VERY vibrant downtown.  I lived there the past 5 years.  It's significantly more walkable and urban and livable than most other cities of our size.  We had a downtown grocery store and movie theatre while most other cities were lucky to have a handful of condos and a downtown that turned into a ghost town at 5PM.  Sure, as the generations have changed and economy has improved, other cities are catching up to us, so we need to keep doing more.  Invest in expanded Lymmo and Bike lanes.  Invest in bringing more jobs into the core.  Continue to invest in housing to try to bring the insane cost of downtown living down.  That way we can continue to be a leader and expand the vibrancy that already exists in a downtown where people can Live, Work, and Play.

Anecdotal evidence sucks because its just that.  Your reality is that people are gone.  Mine is the exact opposite.  With the exception of a negligible percentage (seriously I can think of two of the top of my head), everyone I know in Orlando ISN'T from Orlando.  There's a group of ten of us that were interns over a decade ago for the tourism giants.  We've stayed and made a life here in professional careers.  There's another group of ten that met in the dorms at UCF and have stayed and built careers and families here.  There's another group of ten that all met playing kickball because we needed a way to meet other people because we moved here by ourselves for professional opportunities.

We are from South Florida, and Ohio, and Pennsylvania, and North Florida, and Indiana, and New Jersey, and Michigan, and Wisconsin, and Kansas, and Illinois, and Texas, and New York, and Germany even!  We are Engineers, and IT, and HR, and Recruiters, and Teachers, and Nurses, and Sales, and Finance, and Marketers, and Realtors, and Researchers, and even a Lawyer or two as well.

Wander around downtown one Sunday afternoon.  You'll see every bar and restaurant packed with people spending $30+ for brunch and mimosas.  You know who can afford that regularly?  Professionals.  It may not be your scene, but I'm a transplant who has embraced The City Beautiful as my new hometown, and it is honestly the only place I ever see myself calling home for the rest of my life (partially because I have a successful career with many opportunities).  When I read your words, I see an entirely different city than that one I know, and that makes me sad.

Are there a lot of lower wage jobs?  Absolutely.  I'm also friends with many a bartender and waiter.  They have families and they find ways to not only survive, but THRIVE.  A good bartender makes a good wage.  A good waiter who can snag a job at one of those higher end restaurants that the tourism economy supports can make more than you or I.

We need more and better jobs, just like we need more and better housing, and more and better transportation, but we don't have to shun the girl that brought us to the dance in the first place.  We have a great city that I'm proud of, and each day we get better.

[I am Reality]

10 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

So here's my issue.

We have a VERY vibrant downtown.  I lived there the past 5 years.  It's significantly more walkable and urban and livable than most other cities of our size.  We had a downtown grocery store and movie theatre while most other cities were lucky to have a handful of condos and a downtown that turned into a ghost town at 5PM.  Sure, as the generations have changed and economy has improved, other cities are catching up to us, so we need to keep doing more.  Invest in expanded Lymmo and Bike lanes.  Invest in bringing more jobs into the core.  Continue to invest in housing to try to bring the insane cost of downtown living down.  That way we can continue to be a leader and expand the vibrancy that already exists in a downtown where people can Live, Work, and Play.

Anecdotal evidence sucks because its just that.  Your reality is that people are gone.  Mine is the exact opposite.  With the exception of a negligible percentage (seriously I can think of two of the top of my head), everyone I know in Orlando ISN'T from Orlando.  There's a group of ten of us that were interns over a decade ago for the tourism giants.  We've stayed and made a life here in professional careers.  There's another group of ten that met in the dorms at UCF and have stayed and built careers and families here.  There's another group of ten that all met playing kickball because we needed a way to meet other people because we moved here by ourselves for professional opportunities.

We are from South Florida, and Ohio, and Pennsylvania, and North Florida, and Indiana, and New Jersey, and Michigan, and Wisconsin, and Kansas, and Illinois, and Texas, and New York, and Germany even!  We are Engineers, and IT, and HR, and Recruiters, and Teachers, and Nurses, and Sales, and Finance, and Marketers, and Realtors, and Researchers, and even a Lawyer or two as well.

Wander around downtown one Sunday afternoon.  You'll see every bar and restaurant packed with people spending $30+ for brunch and mimosas.  You know who can afford that regularly?  Professionals.  It may not be your scene, but I'm a transplant who has embraced The City Beautiful as my new hometown, and it is honestly the only place I ever see myself calling home for the rest of my life (partially because I have a successful career with many opportunities).  When I read your words, I see an entirely different city than that one I know, and that makes me sad.

Are there a lot of lower wage jobs?  Absolutely.  I'm also friends with many a bartender and waiter.  They have families and they find ways to not only survive, but THRIVE.  A good bartender makes a good wage.  A good waiter who can snag a job at one of those higher end restaurants that the tourism economy supports can make more than you or I.

We need more and better jobs, just like we need more and better housing, and more and better transportation, but we don't have to shun the girl that brought us to the dance in the first place.  We have a great city that I'm proud of, and each day we get better.

I am truly happy that you have found a new home here.  Seriously, that's great.

I did not write the article in the Sentinel today about the below-average wages here. I didn't write the previous articles, columns, studies and data sets we have already discussed over the past week. I think we can agree that wages are suppressed in the region.  Whether using either raw numbers & percentages, there are fewer high-wage jobs here than elsewhere.

Also, all of my HS friends left the area years ago for college. Every single one.  They have not returned.

 

 

[FLClarkKent]

26 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I am truly happy that you have found a new home here.  Seriously, that's great.

I did not write the article in the Sentinel today about the below-average wages here. I didn't write the previous articles, columns, studies and data sets we have already discussed over the past week. I think we can agree that wages are suppressed in the region.  Whether using either raw numbers & percentages, there are fewer high-wage jobs here than elsewhere.

Also, all of my HS friends left the area years ago for college. Every single one.  They have not returned.

 

 

I’d give good a portion of my high-paying salary to avoid having to read your highly repetitive posts. 

[I am Reality]

17 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

I’d give good a portion of my high-paying salary to avoid having to read your highly repetitive posts. 

I agree. Let's go back to the usual conversation:

"I would really like a 60 story building here"

"I don't necessarily want to be like New York City or Chicago..."

"If only they waived the FAA height regulations.."

i can see you have more important matters to talk about.