CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

1 minute ago, CLT2014 said:

That is much more contemporary looking, great design! Only con is grey isn't as easy to see as a bright color for traffic collisions / rain. 

It'll show off the injury attorney wrap ads better, though.

[KJHburg]

Concord Kannapolis Rider buses will connect to new LYNX stations near UNC Charlotte. http://www.salisburypost.com/2017/09/12/concord-kannapolis-bus-route-could-connect-to-rail-extension-in-charlotte/

[KJHburg]

This article talks about a lot of different alternatives for transportation trails, light rail,  streetcar etc.  http://charlotte.crains.com/article/news/queen-city-shifts-traditional-transportation-options?ito=792   and yes Raleigh along with Cary's trail systems is incredible and blows Charlotte out of the water. They have huge pedestrian bridges over highways like at 440 and Wade Ave.  It is really impressive. 

[Scribe]

16 hours ago, KJHburg said:

This article talks about a lot of different alternatives for transportation trails, light rail,  streetcar etc.  http://charlotte.crains.com/article/news/queen-city-shifts-traditional-transportation-options?ito=792 

I love it how they clearly try to lump the CityLYNX with the LYNX Blue Line (but just in case you miss it - that is 4.4 Billion vs 7 million by 2035) Yes, even with a 10 year head-start for BLE the streetcar's 7 million cannot even dream of the 1.45 Billion that the BLE already brought in:

Quote

“Investments along the LYNX Blue Line and CityLYNX Gold Line continue to draw private investment and spur economic development,” Green said. “There has been approximately $1.45 billion in new development along the LYNX Blue Line. The LYNX Blue Line Extension is also attracting new private development along the line with over $200 million in planned or under-construction projects with an estimated new development of $4.4 billion by 2035.

“The CityLYNX Gold Line anticipates an increase in incremental property tax revenues would range from $4.7 million to $7 million per year by 2035.”

But, hey it's shiny and it goes right through center city!... I am hoping to see some actual development start on the Gold Line (and Charlotte Gateway Station does not count) after the new Siemens cars are operational (right now the replicas are a road hazard with their 18 mph max speed)

[15895]

I get so annoyed reading transportation articles because quite frankly, I think we are moving too slow. I'm not saying it can be done faster, I just want at least shovel ready plans. Again, maybe it's too complicated for me to grasp how extensive of a process it is 

Edited September 26, 2017 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

^ your not wrong. The city / MTC have just ignored the long term plan since the recession (basically a decade). I know the BLE was a big deal and tax revenues were below plan but they really dropped the ball with planning and design -- better management could have handled both.

 somebody has gotta get in front of this and fix the revenue issue and get more lines going now or Charlotte will get left behind. Hopefully the Amazon RFP will make the need more clear.

Edited September 27, 2017 by kermit

[Nick2]

Charlotte has plenty of plans and studies already done even if some of them are a little older. They have to get things moving on the silver line and a spur to the airport. The red line would be great but it would benefit out of county commuters too much without getting cooperation from those other counties. If they voted for a sales tax increase even if it was temporary, it would help CLT boom. 

Dreaming here, I know.

A airport line is absolutely necessary in my opinion.

It would be nice if they would be proactive with their ideas. adding a spur to concord mills/downtown concord. Extending silver from its current plan out to monroe with commuter or light rail.  get an additional line out to gastonia through expansion of an airport line or an independent one. and finally getting a line further south into york county. CLT will need these public transit areas to be funded sooner because they take a decade to get finalized and rolling and another 5-10 years to get constructed.

[15895]

53 minutes ago, Nick2 said:

Charlotte has plenty of plans and studies already done even if some of them are a little older. They have to get things moving on the silver line and a spur to the airport. The red line would be great but it would benefit out of county commuters too much without getting cooperation from those other counties. If they voted for a sales tax increase even if it was temporary, it would help CLT boom. 

Dreaming here, I know.

A airport line is absolutely necessary in my opinion.

It would be nice if they would be proactive with their ideas. adding a spur to concord mills/downtown concord. Extending silver from its current plan out to monroe with commuter or light rail.  get an additional line out to gastonia through expansion of an airport line or an independent one. and finally getting a line further south into york county. CLT will need these public transit areas to be funded sooner because they take a decade to get finalized and rolling and another 5-10 years to get constructed.

 

I don't see what a spur to Concord Mills does. The expense doesn't seem to justify cost versus, for example, a spur to Ballantyne through Carolina Place Mall area. If a spur to Concord Mills were to happen, Cabarrus county needs to pay a much larger price tag than Meck Co. in my opinion since I feel they would get most of the benefits.

The silver line from Matthews to Panthers Stadium (Stops at Legacy Union/Panther Stadium, Stonewall Convention Center Station,  another stop uptown) needs to happen asap before anything. Connecting 485, to downtown matthews, CPCC, Bojangles Coliseum, Gold Line connection, Blue line Stonewall connection, Convention center, Panthers stadium (with an eventual extension to the airport) seems like a wild success in my opinion. 

 

A reminder of the chosen route up to uptown. 

 

[archiham04]

20 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I get so annoyed reading transportation articles because quite frankly, I think we are moving too slow. I'm not saying it can be done faster, I just want at least shovel ready plans. Again, maybe it's too complicated for me to grasp how extensive of a process it is 

What I would like to see is movement on Station area infrastructure/design.  We have known where the Plaza, Morningside and Coliseum stops are going to be for some time.  They have now  been reconfirmed for the silver line.  We should start building infrastructure around those stops now.  In an ideal world I would like to see the city build the actual stops and service them with buses in the near term.  If these are going to be stops in the future intended for spurring redevelopment, why not make them stops now.

[kermit]

^ Completely agree. Upzone the station areas now. Complete neighborhood improvements projects ASAP. Build placeholder stations that people (and developers) can see. Bite the bullet and run high frequency buses along the route.

Lots can be done to encourage appropriate landuse change and cultivate future ridership.

[Scribe]

I agree that action would be amazing. But the problem I see is that the people who are supposed to be managing the build out (CATS) are not capable of managing a large project. Let alone multiple large projects at once. They just do not have the talent or the people (i.e. amount of qualified staff) to be able to accomplish this.

15 hours ago, Nick2 said:

Charlotte has plenty of plans and studies already done even if some of them are a little older. They have to get things moving on the silver line and a spur to the airport

What I want to see is the contract include real milestones with real cost/punishment for missed milestones (and any scope creep/amendments to have the same milestone/costs structure). The BL was sad but forgivable considering the city/CATS has never done anything of that size, but the BLE is a serious disappointment.  We have done 2.5 large transportation projects as city/county we need to get better at executing the contract and protecting the city from shoddy/slow/greedy/incompetent contractors (there are no perfect contractors but you can definitely have an air-tight contract).

14 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

a spur to Ballantyne through Carolina Place Mall area

Do agree that original BL should go to Ballantyne (probably through Pineville) - but the capacity expansion needs to happen to all platforms (did you hear we wont get that now 'til 2024 or later?)

As for silver line, here is an idea, instead of hugging 277 on the North-East side, have the line go from "The Plaza" station up to "Parkwood Stations" on the BLE line making that an interchange station and then going on to Gateway Station and BoA Stadium in Uptown.

• There is plenty of space to design and build a great interchange station.
• HUGE catalyst from North End to NoDa
• effectively expands the footprint of Uptown on the North side of Uptown.
• cheaper then a tunnel option under uptown.

Thoughts?

[15895]

25 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I agree that action would be amazing. But the problem I see is that the people who are supposed to be managing the build out (CATS) are not capable of managing a large project. Let alone multiple large projects at once. They just do not have the talent or the people (i.e. amount of qualified staff) to be able to accomplish this.

What I want to see is the contract include real milestones with real cost/punishment for missed milestones (and any scope creep/amendments to have the same milestone/costs structure). The BL was sad but forgivable considering the city/CATS has never done anything of that size, but the BLE is a serious disappointment.  We have done 2.5 large transportation projects as city/county we need to get better at executing the contract and protecting the city from shoddy/slow/greedy/incompetent contractors (there are no perfect contractors but you can definitely have an air-tight contract).

Do agree that original BL should go to Ballantyne (probably through Pineville) - but the capacity expansion needs to happen to all platforms (did you hear we wont get that now 'til 2024 or later?)

As for silver line, here is an idea, instead of hugging 277 on the North-East side, have the line go from "The Plaza" station up to "Parkwood Stations" on the BLE line making that an interchange station and then going on to Gateway Station and BoA Stadium in Uptown.

• There is plenty of space to design and build a great interchange station.
• HUGE catalyst from North End to NoDa
• effectively expands the footprint of Uptown on the North side of Uptown.
• cheaper then a tunnel option under uptown.

Thoughts?

I wonder if the blue line could handle that bulk of transfer and how that would effect ridership projections? 

Didnt know about 2024 date, I zone on most transportation articles.  Was reading in one of the articles how light rail to Matthews was scrapped for BRT, then a Monroe Rd Streetcar then that year or so of public input whether to do bus, light rail or streetcar and we were back where we started with years waisted. 

[Scribe]

26 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Didnt know about 2024 date, I zone on most transportation articles.

I know, I think MTC and CATS count on that, so they can keep doing whatever they intend to do.

Also, agree on the wasted time re silver line back and forth.

[Dale]

19 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I wonder if the blue line could handle that bulk of transfer and how that would effect ridership projections? 

Didnt know about 2024 date, I zone on most transportation articles.  Was reading in one of the articles how light rail to Matthews was scrapped for BRT, then a Monroe Rd Streetcar then that year or so of public input whether to do bus, light rail or streetcar and we were back where we started with years waisted. 

Matthews residents are fighting tooth-and-nail plans to turn John St in a "super street." I sure don't want another Independence, but I do know that downtown Matthews is being strangled by traffic.

[SgtCampsalot]

31 minutes ago, Dale said:

Matthews residents are fighting tooth-and-nail plans to turn John St in a "super street." I sure don't want another Independence, but I do know that downtown Matthews is being strangled by traffic.

Traffic's only bad if you live in Matthews and work around Uptown... or god forbid you venture into South Charlotte... it's a dream if you stay in-town  

-Child of Matthews who frequently visits his parents

Edited September 28, 2017 by SgtCampsalot

[kermit]

There is an interesting new public health study in the Journal of Injury Prevention looking at the cost effectiveness of bike lane construction from a public health perspective. I'll refrain from digging into the Markov model they used here but they found that NYC generated a 'net societal benefit" (mostly people being in better shape and improved air quality) of $230 million from bike lane projects which cost $10 million. They modeling suggests that similarly massive returns can be generated in other locations as well.

I post this here because the findings of this study can certainly be generalized to transit (which also encourages people to exercise and improves air quality) -- eventually transit agencies and the institutions that fund transit expansion will include public health benefits in their cost-benefit analysis. The sooner we can do that here (perhaps using it as part of the next transit tax increase referenda) the sooner we can appropriately fund our transit expansion.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/23/4/239

 

[caterpillar2]

Someone forwarded an article about the "red line" be considered again for more surveys, etc.  Nobody has posted on this. Does anyone have info. It seems that there is going to be a push to get the lake towns on the bandwagon. Hope it works. 

 

[QClifer]

personally i dont think we are ready for a redline,  fix 77 for the people to commute on,  I think the lake, huntersville, mooresville etc need more people to make this project worth it. I see this being a huge money pit and the city(charlotte) being stuck with the bill.  I think its still 15years away from being needed.   Focus on the matthews line first

[Nick2]

1 minute ago, QClifer said:

personally i dont think we are ready for a redline,  fix 77 for the people to commute on,  I think the lake, huntersville, mooresville etc need more people to make this project worth it. I see this being a huge money pit and the city(charlotte) being stuck with the bill.  I think its still 15years away from being needed.   Focus on the matthews line first

Totally agree. The silver line is already in the works and needs to be done badly (along with a hopeful spur to the airport soon after). I could see the red line being a boondoggle considering how suburban it is. 

Butif congestion gets bad enough those residents outside Mecklenburg will be in favor of it to relieve some of the traffic. And also some people will like it as a true amenity and as a legitimate transit option. I can see 77 being on par with the worst roads in the country for congestion in two decades if CLT isn't proactive about it.

[15895]

14 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

Someone forwarded an article about the "red line" be considered again for more surveys, etc.  Nobody has posted on this. Does anyone have info. It seems that there is going to be a push to get the lake towns on the bandwagon. Hope it works. 

 

 

 

 

I think the redline will be popular and all the  stops have big mixed use developments along them. And have you checked out the schedule between 77X & 48X? Do any other express routes have such a heavy schedule? I know people in huntersville who refuse to ride the bus, pissed about tolls but excited for the red line. 

 

Then again. We are talking 18 months of just deciding whether to have busses, or rail...... 

Edited October 10, 2017 by AirNostrumMAD

[tozmervo]

This is just part of an overall temperature-taking of the original 2030 plan. They have similar meetings for the west corridor. http://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/west-corridor/Pages/default.aspx 

 

[caterpillar2]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

 

 

I think the redline will be popular and all the  stops have big mixed use developments along them. And have you checked out the schedule between 77X & 48X? Do any other express routes have such a heavy schedule? I know people in huntersville who refuse to ride the bus, pissed about tolls but excited for the red line. 

 

Then again. We are talking 18 months of just deciding whether to have busses, or rail...... 

Thanks for posting this. I just hope we can get the red line up here while I can still walk. LOL.  We seriously need to look ahead. This is one area at which European cities make the U.S. look ancient. We are suffering up here on the lake and need help getting into uptown, Soon, we will be an isolated island because of the ever increasing traffic. I, for one, don't mind paying an extra percent in city taxes to get rail service. 

 

[DMann]

European cities may have more transit, but we have more aircraft carriers

[kermit]

a few notes about tonight's BLE meeting:

They swear up and down that it will open in "March" although there was a great deal of uncertainty about when 36th street will be done (I got the impression that delays with the overpass, new retaining walls and Norfolk Southern will not impact the BLE open date, but they never said that outright)

While UNCC IDs will be smartcard enabled as soon as the BLE opens, Smartcards for the public will not be available immediately upon opening. No details were available, but I did not get the feeling that smartcards for the masses would be here quickly.

The presentation said trains would run "every 7.5 minutes" but the presenter said "every 10 minutes"

The 25th street extension (bridging LSC) should open in "late 2018"

16th st at Parkwood will be slightly realigned (only about 100 feet) to match up with the 16th street blockage across Parkwood. At some point in the future 16th street on the Optimist Park side will be reconnected Parkwood.

 

 

[southslider]

^36th St Station can still open with the rest of BLE, even if 36th Street underpass remains unfinished. Sugar Creek Station will definitely open before Sugar Creek Road overpass is finished. This is also why Craighead will stay open initially when BLE opens.

The new fare boxes on buses will work in the future with smart cards.

Peak service will run every 7.5 minutes. 10-minute peak service can't happen until the line can fully support 3-car trains.

25th Street Extension will open well after BLE opens.  Same for Orr Rd Extension near the Old Concord Rd Station.

16th will be realigned but strangely not signalized at Parkwood, yet 18th will in the future, though again, well after BLE opens. Of course,  Brevard is a new signal on Parkwood with BLE.