CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[cltbwimob]

13 minutes ago, archiham04 said:

The study specifically mentions that context is the most important factor and explains that there are major contextual differences, so I don't agree that context is a problem with the study.  Each situation has had different outcomes, with context being the decider.  W The "context" of the Silver Line has changed over time.  Originally it was a park and ride BRT along Independence.  That was widely criticized because it was antithetical to the city's TOD redevelopment narrative.  Now that they have altered the plan to capture neighborhoods that might have a hope of redeveloping, it has a new context so to speak.

I agree that riders need to support BRT for success, but I think if we can find a corridor to demonstrate the concept, that folks will understand it better.

The fact that the authors mentioned that context is important does not necessarily indicate that it is not a problem with the study.  Quite the opposite in fact; usually authors throw in those types of caveats precisely because it is a potential problem with the study, or at least they are trying to steer people away from making overly generalized conclusions.  In this case, the over generalization is that BRT, as a transit technology, is as good as or better than rail but at a fraction of the cost.  And this seems to be what you are implying.

As for the Silver line, when it was originally conceived, the argument wasn't about corridor placement but transit mode.  The original conceptual plans called for the corridor, whether it be BRT or LRT, to traverse the median of Independence.  In 2006, when MTC chose BRT as the LPA over LRT, East Charlotte spoke out against it and asked for LRT instead.  They didn't ask for a different corridor, only a different transit vehicle.  Now, I do agree that the new alignment will be far superior to a median-running line, but my point was to say that all else being equal the people of East Charlotte overwhelmingly preferred LRT to BRT.  From a technical standpoint, the BRT was supposed to even outperform LRT considering the reduced headway spacing, yet it would have been a mistake because the people who were supposed to be the users did not support it.  That was my entire point in bringing up the Silver line-the residents did not support BRT.  So regardless of it's supposed economic viability or its technical parity (or in some cases superiority to LRT) if the people don't want it, then it's a mistake.  This brings me back to my first point which is you can't compare LRT systems in cities like Charlotte where the bus is often considered inferior to rail to BRT systems in major international cities where a similar stigma about busses may not exist.

[archiham04]

I don't agree with you that BRT is a non starter in CLT.  I think it should be included in our masterplan.  I don't think it is necessarily superior to LRT.  

I do want to clarify one point. The original "Silver line" BRT on Independence died.  I do not agree that it died because it was rejected due to the mode.  Planner's realized that the park and ride strategy would have NO redevelopment potential, and therefore would be limited in its success.  That combined with East side political pressure pushed it toward a new route and LRT.  

[Spartan]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:17 PM, southslider said:

^36th St Station can still open with the rest of BLE, even if 36th Street underpass remains unfinished. Sugar Creek Station will definitely open before Sugar Creek Road overpass is finished. This is also why Craighead will stay open initially when BLE opens.

The new fare boxes on buses will work in the future with smart cards.

Peak service will run every 7.5 minutes. 10-minute peak service can't happen until the line can fully support 3-car trains.

25th Street Extension will open well after BLE opens.  Same for Orr Rd Extension near the Old Concord Rd Station.

16th will be realigned but strangely not signalized at Parkwood, yet 18th will in the future, though again, well after BLE opens. Of course,  Brevard is a new signal on Parkwood with BLE.

This is slightly incorrect - 16th & Parkwood will get signalized by the adjacent developer

 

 

On 10/24/2017 at 6:05 AM, southslider said:

^True, Stonewall is expensive, but it would at least reach CPCC, Metropolitan, and the hottest office corridor in town.

The relatively inexpensive option would be to join the Blue Line through Uptown serving the same stations between 9th and Stonewall.  You still could see a new station on 12th near N Davidson just before the join and another on Carson just after the split through Spectrum parking lot.

It's way too expensive to stay on 12th past Blue Line and wrap around all of Uptown to Gateway and the Stadium. The only way I see a big push for that expensive option is if HQ2 somehow ended up at Gateway.  Even Red Line will enter Uptown elsewhere, so Gateway may remain a misnomer.

One downside to using the Blue Line through center city is trains every 2-3 minutes at the at-grade crossings. It would be fairly disruptive to street traffic (cars, bikes, and peds). I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but someone needs to think about the cost/benefet of that scenario.

 

9 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

The biggest problem with the study is context.  Comparing say an LRT system in a midsize city in the US to BRT in a major city like Istanbul is an apples and oranges comparison on multiple levels: relative densities of the cities, attitudes toward bus travel, cost of implementation in one country relative to the other, etc.  In order to implement a BRT system that can match the capacity of a high-capacity LRT system at ~30000 riders per hour, much of the cost savings will go away.  A 2006 study by the USDOT of the Bogota BRT system, arguably the most successful hi-cap BRT system, concluded that a similar system would not be feasible in the US.  Further evidence from our own city suggests that even if you do have a BRT line that is similar to LRT it may not be successful.  The Silver Line was originally designed to be a BRT line, but the residents of East Charlotte threw a fit about it and demanded that they too get an LRT line.  The original BRT line was supposed to be like LRT in nearly every way, but if the people for whom the system is designed reject it, then it will just be an expensive mistake.

I can honestly say I  never thought I'd see Charlotte compared to Istanbul. 

The psychological factor behind the permanence of rail is something that is inescapable in the US. Functionally, BRT should be the same if not better than LRT in many ways - but the fact remains that people and developers invest more heavily in LRT corridors in the United States.

[elrodvt]

FWIW here are some articles about Denver's first foray into BRT and they're strongly considering adding another line. I think this is a good comparison to what we're facing. As I understand it here is a summary.

The first line is Denver to Boulder and shares lanes with cars in many spots. So it's not true BRT. Nonetheless they're nice new buses with great service intervals which is key. Ridership is strong. I think this could be the model for service up 77 until a red line could be funded. OTH people are still upset that the signed off on a sales tax increase for LRT and got a bus. Which I'm sure would be the same fight here.

The line they're considering is up Colfax to Aurora and would take 2 lanes for dedicated BRT. The cost is of course MUCH  lower than LRT or Commuter rail. Is this is similar to the transit we need out 74?

Links:

https://denver.streetsblog.org/2016/01/06/rtds-flatiron-flyer-is-an-upgrade-but-dont-call-it-bus-rapid-transit/

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/us36_36

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/11/bus-rapid-transit-could-fix-colfax/

 

 

[kermit]

Its Sunday so I was fiddling with data from the ACS for the zip codes within about 70 miles of Charlotte. The thing that struck me was that 28202 (Uptown) has a mean commute time of 17.2 minutes (the 9th shortest commute in the group). Dilworth is similar at 17.9 minutes (the 10th shortest).

I already knew that most of the people living in the new multifamily we have been building don't work nearby but I still surprised that the mean for all residents in these neighborhoods is this long.

Edited October 29, 2017 by kermit

[Popsickle]

33 minutes ago, kermit said:

Its Sunday so I was fiddling with data from the ACS for the zip codes within about 70 miles of Charlotte. The thing that struck me was that 28202 (Uptown) has a mean commute time of 17.2 minutes (the 9th shortest commute in the group). Dilworth is similar at 17.9 minutes (the 10th shortest).

I already knew that most of the people living in the new multifamily we have been building don't work nearby but I did not realize the mean for all residents would be this long.

Kermit, why aren't you watching the Panthers game?

[elrodvt]

^that's one way I assume? Crazy. They don't have distance commuted do they?

Edited October 29, 2017 by elrodvt

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Popsickle said:

Kermit, why aren't you watching the Panthers game?

College football > NFL

yes, one way commute time, the average for all modes (including walking). I didn't pull the distance (or mode share) data.

EDIT: added mode share comment

Edited October 29, 2017 by kermit

[DEnd]

 

1 hour ago, kermit said:

College football > NFL

yes, one way commute time, the average for all modes (including walking). I didn't pull the distance data.

What's the modeshare break down into?  or do they break it down?  <20 minutes for an average commute time really isn't bad, especially if it's due to people using cars less.  

[videtur quam contuor]

15 minutes ago, DEnd said:

 

What's the modeshare break down into?  or do they break it down?  <20 minutes for an average commute time really isn't bad, especially if it's due to people using cars less.  

I lived in Dilworth for nearly all my working life and one advantage was that I never worked near my home but my commute was a reverse: I was driving outbound on the empty lanes while the oncoming toward town lanes were choked with cars and buses and trucks. For three years it was Dilworth-Weddington. No problem. That was by far the farthest commute of my life. Though doable since Providence outbound was empty at 7:25 a. m.

[elrodvt]

Probably many of you see this news letter but thought it was worth posting: http://action.smartgrowthamerica.org/o/5184/t/0/blastContent.jsp?email_blast_KEY=1403731

[KJHburg]

Wouldn't a train link uptown be nice from our CLT airport?  And our airport is a lot closer to uptown then Hong Kong's to Central HK.  And this train is super fast and crosses multiple bodies of water. 

[Popsickle]

2 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Wouldn't a train link uptown be nice from our CLT airport?  And our airport is a lot closer to uptown then Hong Kong's to Central HK.  And this train is super fast and crosses multiple bodies of water. 

"The fastest link to uptown and River District."

[LKN704]

The Airport Express is really nice! Comfortable airline-style seats, and it drops you off in the really nice purpose-built Hong Kong station. In-town check-in is pretty convenient too (although the current administration's security concerns have canceled that for all US flights…)

 

I lived in HK as a kid and then did part of my undergrad there. These days I try to go back at least once a year to visit friends. However, I never take the Airport Express, nor do you ever see any locals on it (it's always filled with Mainland tourists whenever I've been on it). Its ridiculously expensive for what it is. I usually take a bus to my destination, or take a bus to Tsing Yi and take the MTR Tung Chung Line from there.  Its so much cheaper and just as easy.

 

The Airport Express reminds me a lot of the Heathrow Express and the UP Express in Toronto, all are quick and convienent, but expensive. At LHR I usually take a Heathrow Connect train. It's roughly half the cost and only takes a little bit more to reach Paddington.

 

FWIW, an airport train will only work if it is inexpensive, reliable, and the train is directly linked to the city's main subway system. For example, I detest the AirTrain at EWR. It's painfully slow and a royal pain to connect to NJT at the RailLink station. AirTrain JFK is marginally better.

 

I really like MARTA at ATL, MAX in Portland, and Metro at DCA-all incredibly cheap and easy and neither charge an airport surcharge like they do in Chicago and in San Francisco (IIRC).

 

I'm disappointed to see plans that show when rail eventually does come to CLT, the train will not go to the terminal, but rather a station off-property requiring passengers to use a APM system to reach the station.

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I'm disappointed to see plans that show when rail eventually does come to CLT, the train will not go to the terminal, but rather a station off-property requiring passengers to use a APM system to reach the station.

That is the crazy world we live in - security wise (or insecurity) . With a station off property and separate/dedicated train, they can have control of the flow and the station acts as a choke-point (sensors for explosives, chemicals, etc) you have to get off one train to get on to the next.

[Popsickle]

19 minutes ago, Scribe said:

That is the crazy world we live in - security wise (or insecurity) . With a station off property and separate/dedicated train, they can have control of the flow and the station acts as a choke-point (sensors for explosives, chemicals, etc) you have to get off one train to get on to the next.

From a physical security point of view the arrivals/departure area is a significantly higher threat, easier to access, with faster more direct access and more variables. 

I don't think security is playing a role in the routing of the possible future LTR, I think it's directly related to cost and availability of space. 

[southslider]

^and continuity of the line farther west

 

[elrodvt]

Newer lines are going directly to the terminal in other cities. I've only seen the Denver one in person but am sure I read of others. 

Sounds like bad planning prioritization  or value engineering to me. I have my doubts it'll be built in the next 20 years. If it were though and was not connected I would stick with the flyer bus.

I think if you look at who needs public transit the most to reduce our social mobility issue this line should be way, way down the list.

[Popsickle]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

Newer lines are going directly to the terminal in other cities. I've only seen the Denver one in person but am sure I read of others. 

Sounds like bad planning prioritization  or value engineering to me. I have my doubts it'll be built in the next 20 years. If it were though and was not connected I would stick with the flyer bus.

I think if you look at who needs public transit the most to reduce our social mobility issue this line should be way, way down the list.

Without tunneling under the airport, I don't think direct terminal access is possible at all. 

Edit: After reviewing Google maps and the airport commerical development plan, direct connection to the terminal is not  cost feasible. 

What would your social mobility line or plan be?

Does this plan have great potential to be a game changer within the city and region itself? Or serve a political pursuit. 

Because one could argue that the money spend on the blue and gold line could be spend on social mobility programs but would it have the same affect that the lines currently have had and will have while also help the cause of social mobility?

CLT Airport Commerical Development Strategy FINAL March 27 2017.pdf

Edited November 10, 2017 by Popsickle

[KJHburg]

^^^ Actually I am in Hong Kong now and this time decided to take a bus directly to my hotel. I don't like to have to take a train then transfer my huge bags to a smaller mini bus. 

That being said a light rail to CLT airport should be regular line with stops along the way and @LKN704 the Hong Kong Airport express is much more expensive than other MTR subway lines. I have taken it in the past but not this time.

Any such line in Charlotte should be a regular line like the MARTA and regularly priced too. Going to the River District is a great idea. 

[elrodvt]

5 hours ago, Popsickle said:

Without tunneling under the airport, I don't think direct terminal access is possible at all. 

Edit: After reviewing Google maps and the airport commerical development plan, direct connection to the terminal is not  cost feasible. 

What would your social mobility line or plan be?

Does this plan have great potential to be a game changer within the city and region itself? Or serve a political pursuit. 

Because one could argue that the money spend on the blue and gold line could be spend on social mobility programs but would it have the same affect that the lines currently have had and will have while also help the cause of social mobility?

CLT Airport Commerical Development Strategy FINAL March 27 2017.pdf

First, I'm no expert on which areas of the city are under served by transit so I could be all wet and I don't have a plan.  Transit can help the poor and that should have a high priority.  I'm not playing transit off against improved education opportunities or a host of other issues.

I  think the most important transit thing we can do (wrt to CLT being last in upward mobility) is to make sure poor people have quick and convenient transportation to where jobs are so they don't need a car. I don't know if that means a lot more buses or LRT? 

I also wonder if the airport line is really a high priority compared to other lines, BRT or expanded bus service. It feels more like checking a box to call ourselves on par with other cities.

[tozmervo]

7 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

First, I'm no expert on which areas of the city are under served by transit so I could be all wet and I don't have a plan.  Transit can help the poor and that should have a high priority.  I'm not playing transit off against improved education opportunities or a host of other issues.

I  think the most important transit thing we can do (wrt to CLT being last in upward mobility) is to make sure poor people have quick and convenient transportation to where jobs are so they don't need a car. I don't know if that means a lot more buses or LRT? 

I also wonder if the airport line is really a high priority compared to other lines, BRT or expanded bus service. It feels more like checking a box to call ourselves on par with other cities.

I've always felt that an airport rail line, while it would be nice, should not be a high priority. Once you get past Old Steel Creek Road, Wilkinson is very industrial in nature and - because of the airport - will always be that way.

And the elephant in the room is that as a practical way to get to CLT, it would pretty much only serve those in Uptown going to the airport, or those willing to make the transfer in Uptown. When you're in a rush, or carrying luggage, etc, how many people are actually going to opt for a rail option? Business travelers in Uptown? That's easy. That gets a lot of attention. But the truth is that's not going to make it a successful line.

There's certainly strong local ridership along Wilkinson - almost entirely between Uptown and Old Steel Creek - and that population would benefit from rail. But compared to other corridors, I think it's a small population and there are not many opportunities for meaningful redevelopment (compared to the Silver Line, for example). 

[cltbwimob]

I think sometimes there is  this assumption flying around that the only people a transit line benefits are those living directly adjacent to it, but I think that is faulty logic. In the context of a city's transit system, the more destinations connected by the system  the more value to a community the entire system will generate, even if a single line may not warrant investment if viewed in isolation.  I think there may be an argument to be made that an airport line viewed in isolation is not worthy of investment (although I think such an argument is very suspect).  But when you look at the system as a whole, I think that argument doesn't hold at all.  

When considering that the airport is starting to grow by leaps and bounds in terms of origin and destination traffic to the tune of 5-7% annually (we are already have around 30,000 O&D passengers per day) and the fact that almost 30,000 people are employed at the airport in some capacity, (many of whom are blue collar workers who would probably benefit from transit access), I think it's easy to envision the benefit in a transit line to the airport.  

Even if you consider the number of O&D passengers and the number of airport employees only, you are looking at tens of thousands of individuals who could potentially use the line.  Add to that, the airport line will probably continue on to the River District which will also be a huge [potential] ridership generator. Between the River District, the airport, and Uptown you are looking at 3 of the top 6 employment submarkets being connected to each other by a single line.  Factoring in also, the line's connectivity to the overall system I think one can make the case that benefits will only compound.  

I would also like to add that I think Wilkinson between Billy Graham and Uptown is a perfect blank canvass for redevelopment projects.  There are huge chunks of underutilized land on both sides the boulevard, especially the southern side.  Many of those chunks are owned by the government from what I understand, so I imagine they would be more than willing to offload them if their value significantly increases due to the presence of an LRT line.  I can imagine a Wilkinson Blvd that, over time, becomes one of America's great gateway streets... if the city takes care to ensure planning objectives are rigidly enforced.

[15895]

isn’t American the largest employer in Charlotte? Lots of middle class, lower middle class and flight attendants could benefit, 

 

emoloyee parking all all the time or light rail?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

isn’t American the largest employer in Charlotte? Lots of middle class, lower middle class and flight attendants could benefit, 

 

emoloyee parking all all the time or light rail?

not by a long shot. Charlotte Hospital Systems, Wells, CMS, Walmart, Bank of America and others are ahead of it.