CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

14 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Even if you consider the number of O&D passengers and the number of airport employees only, you are looking at tens of thousands of individuals who could potentially use the line.  Add to that, the airport line will probably continue on to the River District which will also be a huge [potential] ridership generator. Between the River District, the airport, and Uptown you are looking at 3 of the top 6 employment submarkets being connected to each other by a single line.  Factoring in also, the line's connectivity to the overall system I think one can make the case that benefits will only compound.  

You're right about employees, I failed to touch on that. When I have used the Sprinter before, I was usually the only passenger going as a flier. Everyone else was staff. 

[elrodvt]

13 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

You're right about employees, I failed to touch on that. When I have used the Sprinter before, I was usually the only passenger going as a flier. Everyone else was staff. 

That's my experience as well. I'm questioning the priority not whether we should have this in the grand plan.

Maybe this has been done already but what I'd like to see is the transit plan dove tailed with the economic mobility plan.

[J-Rob]

Below is an article discussing the potential red line up to Mooresville.  Serious question:  What are the timeline and next steps for some of these lines?  Particularly I am interested in how long it might take to nail down funding and start construction on the silver (I think) line down and parallel to Independence.   I am glad they are having discussions about it, but since there was an old plan in place from the 90s that never was realized it rings a bit hollow to me that they are having all of these meetings to lay out a new plan.  Does anyone have any idea what a practical timeline would be to get the next line under construction?

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2017/11/15/cats-revisiting-red-line-west-corridor-transit.html

[kermit]

^ I am guessing best case would be two years before we can have a referendum for an increased tax. 3-5 years after that before CATS can apply for federal funding (assuming it still exists), about a year to review the application. And then 5 years of construction. 

TLDR: More than a decade

Alternatively if they magically found a way to wring all $6 billion (about 4% of metro economic output) out of local taxpayers thus bypassing federal funding, it could possibly be pulled off 2-4 years faster

Edited November 16, 2017 by kermit

[southslider]

CATS CEO will be part of a panel discussion tonight sponsored by Sustain Charlotte.  Hopefully, he can address the next steps of the System Plan.

[Scribe]

43 minutes ago, southslider said:

CATS CEO will be...  Hopefully, he can address the next steps of the System Plan.

It would be more beneficial for him to turn in his resignation. He is a terrible CEO!

[LKN704]

I may have addressed this before, but I often wonder if we could possibly learn from the transit system operating in the Wasatch Front metro area.

The metro area is relatively similar in size to the Charlotte metro (2.5 million vs 2.6 million, respectively) and both Salt Lake City and Charlotte are liberal (relatively speaking) hotspots in conservative states.

The region has an 88 mile commuter rail line known as "UTA Front Runner" (Pleasant View-Salt Lake City-Provo) with a further expansion under construction.  The UTA system also operates a Bus rapid transit line (BRT) known as "UTA Max", a 3-line, 45 mile long light rail system, "UTA Trax", and a modern streetcar line. 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

I may have addressed this before, but I often wonder if we could possibly learn from the transit system operating in the Wasatch Front metro area.

The metro area is relatively similar in size to the Charlotte metro (2.5 million vs 2.6 million, respectively) and both Salt Lake City and Charlotte are liberal (relatively speaking) hotspots in conservative states.

The region has an 88 mile commuter rail line known as "UTA Front Runner" (Pleasant View-Salt Lake City-Provo) with a further expansion under construction.  The UTA system also operates a Bus rapid transit line (BRT) known as "UTA Max", a 3-line, 45 mile long light rail system, "UTA Trax", and a modern streetcar line. 

Yea, SLC did a great job getting a healthy network set up quickly. They had a couple of big advantages that we lack.

The first was the bulk of the system was built in order to accommodate the 2002 Winter Olympics. The republican state government (plus Mitt Romney) cooperated closely with the Bush sr administration (which was surprisingly pro-transit) to get a huge chunk of federal funds invested quickly.

The second advantage was the Front Range and the Desert and Lake really concentrates the metro population in a narrow corridor. 

Finally, SLC was able to purchase an abandoned (or perhaps just unused) rail corridor that belonged to the Utah Central for the Front Runner commuter rail. They didn't have to worry about freight competition since the Union Pacific had a parallel line through town. 

None of this is to say that we shouldn't use the UTA as a positive example -- there is a great deal to be admired about their system (although they make the crappiest transit maps in North America). But they had lots of things going for them that we simply can't recreate.

Edited November 16, 2017 by kermit

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

I often wonder if we could possibly learn from the transit system operating in the Wasatch Front metro area.

I do not think that CATS is bad at/lacks doing research, what they are bad at is execution of new projects (time and money wise).

[Norm2]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

^ I am guessing best case would be two years before we can have a referendum for an increased tax. 3-5 years after that before CATS can apply for federal funding (assuming it still exists), about a year to review the application. And then 5 years of construction. 

TLDR: More than a decade

Alternatively if they magically found a way to wring all $6 billion (about 4% of metro economic output) out of local taxpayers thus bypassing federal funding, it could possibly be pulled off 2-4 years faster

Didn't the republicans in the state legislature pass a law that the cities can't increase sales taxes without state approval?

[kermit]

Just now, norm21499 said:

Didn't the republicans in the state legislature pass a law that the cities can't increase sales taxes without state approval?

yup, so that would have to be fixed before we could have another transit tax election. While that might be tough, the RWNJs might agree to allow a vote in exchange for CATS agreeing to not ask for state funds for any of the projects.

[southslider]

12 hours ago, Scribe said:

I do not think that CATS is bad at/lacks doing research, what they are bad at is execution of new projects (time and money wise).

And the bad management continues. Their big idea to address ongoing ridership loss is to cut service and increase fares. Talk about a terrible way to build community support for increased funding.

[Scribe]

The Observer has this on light rail to CLT Airport http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article185816498.html

Quote

The most recent plan is for a light-rail line – most likely in its own right-of-way – to link uptown to the airport. CATS has hired a consultant, WSP, to the study the west corridor line as well as a rail line to Lake Norman. CATS wants to build three rail lines at once, which could cost between $5 billion and $7 billion. CATS recently held four meetings with residents to get their feedback on the airport train.

There are still a number of unknowns about the airport rail line.

I will agree that I prefer direct light-rail to terminal - but that is one expensive proposition...

Quote

Mayfield said she would also like to see the rail line run directly to the passenger terminal. That would allow passengers to walk off the train and go directly to the ticket counter, instead of taking a people mover.

Mayfield said one way to bring the train directly to the terminal would be a tunnel, allowing it to go under part of the airfield as it enters and exits the airport.

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Scribe

[southslider]

^So no rail to River District then.  Yet CM Mayfield also regularly claims River District will be less car-reliant than Ballantyne.

[cltbwimob]

26 minutes ago, southslider said:

^So no rail to River District then.  Yet CM Mayfield also regularly claims River District will be less car-reliant than Ballantyne.

The solution here is rail along Wilkinson to the airport then down to the River District with an option to build a branch line to Gaston County if/when such a line would be justified.  I do not know why they are entertaining the West Boulevard idea as a means to get to the River District.  If they use West Boulevard, the River District is about all they will be able to serve.  The rest of the corridor looks wholly inappropriate for light rail.   Compare that to a hypothetical line that starts in the River District, passes by the airport, and then enters Uptown via Wilkinson Blvd which could be transformed into a grand gateway street.

 It's almost as if they see serving Wilkinson/airport and serving River District are mutually exclusive goals.  

Edited November 21, 2017 by cltbwimob

[Popsickle]

17 minutes ago, southslider said:

^So no rail to River District then.  Yet CM Mayfield also regularly claims River District will be less car-reliant than Ballantyne.

If I remember correctly under the current study, they are looking into the possibility of extension out to the River District. 

[CLT704]

Just my 2¢, I think it needs to go directly to the terminal and the River District. Although I think direct service to CLT should be prioritised over the RD; the idea of having to switch to another 'train' is ridiculous to me.

[Merthecat]

Why does CATS call the Matthews line "Silver" and then mark it off with purple?  It seems more logical to name it the "Purple Line," because it would not only be consistent but also a more bold color than . . . silver.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 11/16/2017 at 3:10 PM, LKN704 said:

The metro area is relatively similar in size to the Charlotte metro (2.5 million vs 2.6 million, respectively)....

 

The SLC MSA is almost 10,000 square miles.  CLT MSA is about 2,000.  Population yes, area, no.

[Nick2]

If there was a public transit option to access other parts of CLT then people who have long layovers at the airport can go out and spend their money in the area. It's less foreboding to hop on a train to see Uptown than it is to take a bus or uber.

[15895]

I would like to see the Silver Line include the Airport portion.

 

build the airport portion to open first since its relatively short up to the blue line uptown so we have something to play with while they finish the rest of the silver line. 

[Cadi40]

I feel like if people had to wait for a people mover then wait for a train they would rather just take an Uber or a taxi to Uptown. However I do like the people mover idea even without the Light rail near it.

[southslider]

On 11/21/2017 at 4:38 PM, Popsickle said:

If I remember correctly under the current study, they are looking into the possibility of extension out to the River District. 

Point being that direct access to the airport means no extension beyond the airport

 

[CM2424]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:26 PM, Cadi40 said:

I feel like if people had to wait for a people mover then wait for a train they would rather just take an Uber or a taxi to Uptown. However I do like the people mover idea even without the Light rail near it.

Driverless technology and ride sharing should be a big part of this debate in general.  It is certain that getting around in a driverless taxi in the future (whether it's Uber/Tesla/Google/etc) will be far cheaper and more convenient than taxi's and Uber's today.  Given that should we be spending billions of dollars on other forms of transportation, or should we be spending the money to make our city adopt to the new technology instead?  I fear this huge spending will look like a big mistake 20 years from now when it is cheaper, faster and easier to hop in a driverless Uber than to take the light rail.  

[DMann]

Here is a great article about Tesla, and it references self driving cars when you read down far enough.  https://seekingalpha.com/article/4127196-tesla-debate-nutshell