CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[deleted]

12 minutes ago, dubone said:

To me, the next step is clear that the original 5 corridors should absolutely be next, with the lowest priority being north/red because of its relatively lower density and longer mileage. 

Great post.  To nitpick one point, north/red should be higher priority if only to secure the support of the people up there who contribute their tax dollars to everything and get thrown a toll road in return.  I get that the density and distance remain an issue but eventually there has to be a payoff for them.

[kermit]

While I am not entirely sure I agree, the most paranoid of the urbanist blogoshpere believes that the hyperloop is an effort by Musk to delay California HSR so he can sell more Teslas:

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2016/02/04/the-bay-area-should-by-hyper-skeptical-about-hyperloop/

Along the same lines there has been some thoughtful analysis of the ridiculousness of the Boring company. Most of Elon's tunneling cost reduction plans consist of a) running the existing machinery faster and b) digging smaller tunnels. Neither strategy appears to be particularly promising, especially for transit-sized vehicles:

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2017/12/15/elon-musks-ideas-about-transportation-are-boring/

Regardless of his actual intent it does appear clear that Musk is not interested in solving transit problems and has instead focused most of his energy on individualized (or very expensive) transportation systems: https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-awkward-dislike-mass-transit/

I am kinda agnostic on technology, but I really don't want vague promises of future tech-miracles (e.g. autonomous vehicles) to impede transit development. I'll bet that most cities that tore out streetcars so they could be replaced by buses and cars regret their decision.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by kermit

[Cadi40]

If we don’t get some more light rail lines in soon, It will be too late and Charlotte is going to be growing to fast to keep up with the amounts of traffic.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

While I am not entirely sure I agree, the most paranoid of the urbanist blogoshpere believes that the hyperloop is an effort by Musk to delay California HSR so he can sell more Teslas:

LOL, hyperloop is for long distance > 500 miles and has no competition for local (metro) transit.

Boring Company tunnels are not for Hyperloop at least not the first iterations of it.

Lastly, Alon the author you linked to at pedestrian observations is a freelance writer that thinks that BART is the worst planned/run metro system ever ( ) and that CalTrain is the the solution to all Bay Area problems. (as I discussed in Pitfalls of Armchair Urban Planing )

[dubone]

Major technological changes will impact cities, maybe beyond our imaginations right now.   Frankly that topic is so philosophical and filled with extremely scary or amazing impacts.   The best we can do is use current or near term technologies to plan properly for growth.   Yes, antibiotic resistance might cause plague-level die offs and yes a million other major changes could happen that may make it all a mistake. 

Chances are Charlotte will grow and reach the next stage of urbanization that fundamentally requires all of what we can be building now and ignoring Musk-inspired dreaming until he proves his concepts.  We will likely still need railway (heavy freight and light passenger) corridors, still need greenway trails to provide safer bike and pedestrian circulation, managed expressways to efficiently move automobiles that will hopefully be electrified and automated to improve efficiency and reduce toxic emissions, and corridors.     

Charlotte didn't reserve corridors very well, other than the old railways, who actively don't want passenger rails near them.   Luckily for some of this, there are electrical corridors and the creek corridors are slowly being bought for flood management and will eventually all be greenway trails.  

I'm just glad that the old thinking of commuter trains, BRT, and rail in the middle of expressways are all finally being abandoned so we can get new proper plans for the 3 remaining spoke lines.  I even welcome thinking beyond streetcar corridors, although I think they should still pursue some streetcar extensions, but with reserved medians.   

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

LOL...

is it really so difficult to imagine that if Musk is attempting to obstruct one form of public transportation (CHSR) he might also attempt to obstruct another form (transit)?

[as I said above, I am not convinced its the case but I had assumed that the relationship between Musk companies was self-evident, silly me]

Do you have any substantive remarks about Levy's critique of the boring company?

[dubone]

 

5 hours ago, JBS said:

Great post.  To nitpick one point, north/red should be higher priority if only to secure the support of the people up there who contribute their tax dollars to everything and get thrown a toll road in return.  I get that the density and distance remain an issue but eventually there has to be a payoff for them.

(thanks)  The Red line will always stay in the plan due to the politics and the fact that the towns have done their part in planning for it.   It is actually clear that the problem with the original plan was that they not think big enough.   The old plan was so pitiful with its rush-hour-only trains and the hopes that the railroad would virtually abandon the corridor to passenger rail.  The original idea was back before Lowes became a major HQ, before the towns grew big enough to force an expansion of 77, which had to scramble for funding.     The old red line plan only had 4-6k riders expected compared to 20-30k on the independence corridor and about that on the Blue lines.  That is why the FTA laughed it off and rated it unworthy of funds.    The express buses already served half that many riders, and with the express lanes, it makes it very likely to be equivalent to that old Red Line plan.  

My main idea for the Red line is very different from how I used to think: build it first ONLY in Lake Norman towns.  Phased or not, it could either be 4.5-5 mile Mt Mourne to Cornelius or a 10 mile line to Huntersville (hopefully even to Birkdale).    Being a 5 or 10 mile line is vastly lower cost compared to a 25 mile line, which the conventional user of "commuters to uptown" are not really there, or else the original plan would have shown that ridership.    The express buses on express lanes pick up and deliver to the line for anyone living in the densified parts of the towns, as well to park and rides like now for those in the suburban part of LKN.   There will still be room for growth and densification for  commuters to  Lowes HQ, Ingersoll Rand, Davidson College, Birkdale, Huntersville Medical, etc., but it not the impossible to lure to transit group of bedroom-community commuters to uptown Charlotte.    

Charlotte was barely a part of the Red Line originally, with the only stop being downtown and the fairly low benefit Harris/Old Concord stop.   The Graham street corridor is already get a lot of investment and is extremely close to town and to the Blue line to not really benefit from the Red Line.    Charlotte can then focus on incremental Gold Line extensions up Beatties Ford with dedicated rights of way.  that way it can eventually be upgraded to light rail whenever it can slowly flow up through North Lake and up to Huntersville.      But more likely, the Gold Line serves the urban corridor of Beatties Ford just like it is planned for the urban corridor of Central.    Once LKN is dense enough to justify the Charlotte link, the O line is still there to either connect it to Charlotte's system. 

 

It is a bit of a brain storm, but to me, 25 miles will have an impossible time justifying the expense purely to win some sliver of LKN to Uptown commuters.  5 or 10 miles gives them a wick to crystalize around and once they're read the expensive long connector is built.    

 

[southslider]

^Any use of the O-Line, whether connected to Uptown or not, is a non-starter, thanks to stubborn NSRR.  If the Towns want to truly think big, they need to think of another alignment. Otherwise, they best start loving those Express Lanes for BRT enhancements. 

[dubone]

I thought the issue was the tracks not the corridor.  So they can't build along the corridor but on new tracks as was done on the Blue Line?

 

Given that, then I really doubly support light rail up Beatties Ford thru Northlake and Birkdale, but without that O line corridor, it is hard to see a clear path in the towns.   

I always see powerline corridors on these and wonder why they are not more typically used.   Not only is the power already there with nothing underneath it, they are often very old rights of way and very straight.   Electric rail is such a dove tail with electric utilities that they used to build the trolleys themselves.       At least some short segments, they seem almost too obvious for planners to have overlooked, so there must be some serious issue with that.  but I can't imagine Duke would be worse than N-S for coordination. 

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, dubone said:

I thought the issue was the tracks not the corridor.  So they can't build along the corridor but on new tracks as was done on the Blue Line?

The O-Line ROW is only half as wide (at best) as the NCRR and I think there are numerous survey / encrochment / sales / siding issues in North Meck so there is much less wiggle room to use  existing corridor space and NS will likely veto a plan that prevents them from putting in a (theoretical) second freight track.

I am a fan of your Beatties Ford idea.

Edited January 31, 2018 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

21 minutes ago, dubone said:

 

I always see powerline corridors on these and wonder why they are not more typically used.   Not only is the power already there with nothing underneath it, they are often very old rights of way and very straight.   Electric rail is such a dove tail with electric utilities that they used to build the trolleys themselves.       At least some short segments, they seem almost too obvious for planners to have overlooked, so there must be some serious issue with that.  but I can't imagine Duke would be worse than N-S for coordination. 

The terrain beneath power lines is pretty darn rugged since they do go so straight. Maybe not so much in Charlotte itself, but out in the country they pass over some seriously steep and rugged land since they don't curve with the topography. Right of way is one thing when considering using a landowner's land, but actually building something on that farmer's land is something else. When Crescent or Duke gets you to sign over the easement the land is still yours. 

[kermit]

Charlotte needs this (local pols riding busses):

I would pay $50 bucks to see Robert Pittenger on the blue line.

photo is of the mayor of London. [full disclosure, he was there to promote a new bus fare that his office initiated but he is a regular transit rider]

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by kermit

[dubone]

44 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

The terrain beneath power lines is pretty darn rugged since they do go so straight. Maybe not so much in Charlotte itself, but out in the country they pass over some seriously steep and rugged land since they don't curve with the topography. Right of way is one thing when considering using a landowner's land, but actually building something on that farmer's land is something else. When Crescent or Duke gets you to sign over the easement the land is still yours. 

Ah, that makes sense, I guess maybe a lot of the easements aren't one land owner, Duke, but a sea of them.     Still seems less likely to have underground utility messes and a possible benefit, but I'm sure they are not preferable. 

 

 

[dubone]

It appears Statesville Road is funded for a widening between Harris and Westmoreland (U-5767, U-5771, U-6069 on STIP)  .  Maybe that is the best opportunity to factor that in and reserve a wide enough median for transit.   It would certainly be closest to most of the activity in north Meck and far preferable to most other corridors  if it can't go alongside the O line. 

It seems too late to factor it in to the Beatties Ford corridor, as that widening is out to bid, but if North Meck only has so many options, it might as well attempt to reserve the space in Statesville Ave.

http://charlottenc.gov/Projects/Pages/BeattiesFordWidening.aspx

[Scribe]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

is it really so difficult to imagine that if Musk is attempting to obstruct one form of public transportation (CHSR) he might also attempt to obstruct another form (transit)?

Dude, no one needs to obstruct CHSR it is way over budget and no finish line is in sight. Or are you going to blame Musk for the land costs and mismanagement as well?

Careful, once you start down the road of conspiracy theories it is very difficult to see past the narrative!

 

If anyone is interested in the final report on the O-line from 2004, here is the link https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/O-Line_TSS.pdf

[dubone]

26 minutes ago, Scribe said:

If anyone is interested in the final report on the O-line from 2004, here is the link https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/O-Line_TSS.pdf

Thanks.  I probably read it at the time, but didn't really recall.  But I read this as just a laundry list of required upgrades, not that it is totally impossible to still use that corridor, especially for sections.   

 

I think it is less costly to upgrade a railroad corridor than build along a street like we did with N Tryon.  

[Third Strike]

Do you guys think adding an Amtrak station next to the Sugar Creek light rail station is viable? It looks like Gateway is only going to be served by commuter and intercity lines, as well as the Gold Line. The Amtrak station could also serve as a stop along a potential Concord/Salisbury commuter line, and give riders a second hub to transfer lines without having to take the Gold Line from the CTC Station to Gateway. 

[kermit]

3 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Do you guys think adding an Amtrak station next to the Sugar Creek light rail station is viable? It looks like Gateway is only going to be served by commuter and intercity lines, as well as the Gold Line. The Amtrak station could also serve as a stop along a potential Concord/Salisbury commuter line, and give riders a second hub to transfer lines without having to take the Gold Line from the CTC Station to Gateway. 

I wouldn't expect Amtrak to stop there (too close to Gateway so its not worth the timetable cost) but it is a viable and likely location for a commuter rail stop  (along with a stop at U City).  I hope that BLE construction preserved spaced for the necessary siding space for a station.

Long term I think the best Amtrak to Blue Line transfer strategy is a 485 station that the BLE could be extended to.

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by kermit

[southslider]

^A BLE-E to near 49/485 would expand the park-and-ride market and setup an Amtrak connection for both LYNX transfers and UNCC access.

[sakami]

I'm intrigued by this idea. The Metro-North line from Grand Central to New Haven makes a stop at 125th in Harlem. It's the only stop before the train hits top speed and heads to Connecticut. Not offering  a direct connection of some kind to the Blue Line seems like such a glaring weakness to the transit system. 

[Merthecat]

I'm not sure if this has already been suggested, but why not extend the Blue Line Extension to connect with the potential Harrisburg Amtrak station?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Merthecat

[kermit]

29 minutes ago, Merthecat said:

I'm not sure if this has already been suggested, but why not extend the Blue Line Extension to connect with the potential Harrisburg Amtrak station?

AFAIK CATS has never considered this, their was was always for a BLE terminus at 485 and N. Tryon. I do agree that a terminus at 485 and 49 (U City blvd) would be just as accessible to drivers and give the bonus of Amtrak / Commuter rail transfers.

The plan could potentially create a BLE stop on the opposite corner of campus which would be seriously useful to students.

Edited February 4, 2018 by kermit

[southslider]

^Harrisburg is more of a name than a place.  Amtrak would also benefit stopping closer to UNCC. 

[nicholas]

1 hour ago, Merthecat said:

I'm not sure if this has already been suggested, but why not extend the Blue Line Extension to connect with the potential Harrisburg Amtrak station?

Eh, maybe, but I don't really see how having an Amtrak line running from Harrisburg to uptown Charlotte, and a light rail line running from, uh, Harrisburg to uptown Charlotte would be of much benefit.

If and when the Blue Line is extended northward, I think it should be extended along US 29 past the speedway and into Concord.  I don't think it should go into downtown, but should continue to follow US 29 onto US 601 and terminate at the Rider Transit Center (right next to I-85).  There are way more residents in Concord to draw from, and since Concord is beginning to run out of room, it seems like this would serve as a good opportunity to densify the 29/601 corridor, which as of right now is still relatively undeveloped.  I realize the Smiths could easily throw a monkey wrench into everything though, as they own the speedway and are notoriously hard to deal with. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by nicholas

[kermit]

15 minutes ago, nicholas said:

Eh, maybe, but I don't really see how having an Amtrak line running from Harrisburg to uptown Charlotte, and a light rail line running from, uh, Harrisburg to uptown Charlotte would be of much benefit.

The BLE would serve intermediate points where Amtrak won't stop. It also solves the problem of Gateway not connecting to the Blue Line.

A Harrisburg Amtrak station could also serve suburban passengers traveling North and could have a huge parking lot which would resolve complaints about Gateway.  Such a connection would also allow for someone traveling from Greensboro / Raleigh etc. to hop off Amtrak and travel quickly to UNCC, URP or NoDa without having to go downtown and then travel back out -- this might save 25 minutes or more per trip for these people.

The suburban intercity station with massive parking and connected to transit is pretty pretty heavily used in the Northeast (Metropark, New Carrolton, Route 128). 

Having said all that, I don't disagree that a BLE E route up 29 also has some merit.

Edited February 4, 2018 by kermit