CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

6 minutes ago, jednc said:

But BRT is not what was promised. Why do people find it so easy to break promises or not hold agencies to their promises? I'm sure we'd all like to play the shell game of what we promised vs. what we're willing to do now. It doesn't work that way. So, my final word on the subject is this: this transit supporter will do everything in his power to stop any other line from skipping to the front of the line ahead of the RED LINE RAIL. It's pretty simple really. I will make a deal with the devil (the NCGA) and play on all their worst aspects to stop anything else because I will no longer have any confidence in CATS if they try to weasel out of their promise (a promise made before many on this board even lived here I might add). People can kid themselves all they want, but deep down you know that the NCGA would love to have some excuse to punish Charlotte and to strike a blow to mass transit (as they already have). I do not live in Charlotte, so ultimately my allegiance is to my own town. I'll throw Charlotte under that metaphorical BRT if and when I lose confidence in CATS.

Well, I can understand what you are saying, but it wasn't me who said the Red Line should be next. It was CATS. We were supposed to be BEFORE the BLE, but at the time they said that circumstances had evolved so that they had an opportunity to get funding for the BLE and they were having no luck negotiating with Norfolk Southern anyway. So, the BLE jumped ahead. Now it's the Red Line's turn. That's not me inserting my own wishes; that has been the plan for 20 plus years. All I'm saying is, I won't sit by and let CATS change the plan yet again when I pay that 1/2 transit tax and only expect what was promised to my town and region. I didn't dream up this plan...I'm simply saying I plan to do my best to hold CATS accountable for what they promised.

Nothing was PROMISED. Things change. Especially extremely complex legal, real estate and construction projects.  Your small town doesn't live in its own bubble. Don't be so myopic.

Edited February 21, 2018 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[CLT2014]

I kind of get the frustration for North Meck. They are paying the sales tax to fund transit while they do their daily shopping, etc... even if they live, work, and play pretty much in North Meck, while residents of adjacent counties are ironically closer to mass transit into Charlotte. Want to take transit to a game at BB&T ballpark from Davidson? Good luck. But your purchase of some water bottles at a 7 Eleven in Davidson will help fund light rail that Concord and Fort Mill residents have an easier time jumping on for a game, while not paying that sales tax for their daily shopping near home.

Then pour salt on the wound by adding a toll lane and you look around and feel like everybody else gets something (wider interstates, transit improvements, etc...). 

North Meck isn't alone though and pretty much the majority of Mecklenburg is dependent on the automobile, even the majority of Charlotte. These improvements though strengthen the city overall and have ripple effects even to the areas completely car dependent (I.e. a more desirable center of Charlotte makes the suburbs desirable too and keeps population growth up in the region). 

Edited February 21, 2018 by CLT2014

[jednc]

1 hour ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Nothing was PROMISED. Things change. Especially extremely complex legal, real estate and construction projects.  Your small town doesn't live in its own bubble. Don't be so myopic.

Of course it was PROMISED. Vote for this transit tax and we will build the Blue Line first and THEN the Red Line. How the hell do you not get the promise there? I think what you meant to say is your small town doesn't exist in its own bubble. You need all Meck County to pay the transit tax just to tread water with the current build out. Without the rest of us...prepare for no new lines and a service cut to what already exists. Don't be so presbyopic.

[cjd5050]

[jtmonk]

26 minutes ago, jednc said:

Of course it was PROMISED. Vote for this transit tax and we will build the Blue Line first and THEN the Red Line. How the hell do you not get the promise there? I think what you meant to say is your small town doesn't exist in its own bubble. You need all Meck County to pay the transit tax just to tread water with the current build out. Without the rest of us...prepare for no new lines and a service cut to what already exists. Don't be so presbyopic.

Can you please post a source where CATS promised all of this?  Was is a pinky swear? Maybe they had their fingers crossed behind their backs?  

Sorry, I would have more sympathy for you if you weren't acting like a child.  You're basically saying "if i don't get mine next then nobody else gets any."  I understand that CATS has a lot of issues they need to work out and they should not "promise" things, if that is indeed what they did.  You should also realize that 20 years ago when CATS was planning these lines, there was no Great Recession and the State hadn't cut a lot of their funding towards these rail projects.  Because of these factors plus others, plans and timetables change.  Take a breath and relax. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

2 hours ago, jtmonk said:

Can you please post a source where CATS promised all of this?  Was is a pinky swear? Maybe they had their fingers crossed behind their backs?  

Sorry, I would have more sympathy for you if you weren't acting like a child.  You're basically saying "if i don't get mine next then nobody else gets any."  I understand that CATS has a lot of issues they need to work out and they should not "promise" things, if that is indeed what they did.  You should also realize that 20 years ago when CATS was planning these lines, there was no Great Recession and the State hadn't cut a lot of their funding towards these rail projects.  Because of these factors plus others, plans and timetables change.  Take a breath and relax. 

And the people that promised  (if you can find any), are certainly no longer in office. 

[cjd5050]

2 hours ago, jtmonk said:

Can you please post a source where CATS promised all of this?

 

Shouldn't there be an archive of the ballot language from 1998 and 2007?  Would be interesting to read that for sure but I am doubtful such archives exist.  

[southslider]

All-day service between Davidson and Charlotte is coming soon. Thanks to toll lanes.

 

[kermit]

^ I believe the ballot language was something like "a sales tax to implement the 2020 Transit Plan" rather than specifics of lines and stops.

I have some sympathy for jednc's position. Lots was implicitly promised (but none of it by CATS, they had to remain politically neutral), but the referendum supporters frequently cited the 2020 plan that said that the BLE would be completed by 2012 (IRRC) and the Red Line would indeed be the second thing built (despite it not being able to get federal money). The referrenda were certainly built around implicit promises, but N Meck is certainly not the only constituency that has gotten screwed.

[Norm2]

4 hours ago, jednc said:

Of course it was PROMISED. Vote for this transit tax and we will build the Blue Line first and THEN the Red Line. How the hell do you not get the promise there? I think what you meant to say is your small town doesn't exist in its own bubble. You need all Meck County to pay the transit tax just to tread water with the current build out. Without the rest of us...prepare for no new lines and a service cut to what already exists. Don't be so presbyopic.

If you want to get into promises being broken, blame CSX for the red line/commuter rail for not getting off the ground. it has only been recently that CATS has decided that light rail might work up to the northern towns, but that wasn't the original promise was it? No. Light rail would be a broken promise for the northern towns, just like BRT would be.

[skymiler]

2 hours ago, norm21499 said:

If you want to get into promises being broken, blame CSX for the red line/commuter rail for not getting off the ground. it has only been recently that CATS has decided that light rail might work up to the northern towns, but that wasn't the original promise was it? No. Light rail would be a broken promise for the northern towns, just like BRT would be.

I'm sorry, how is CSX responsible for this?

[15895]

4 minutes ago, skymiler said:

I'm sorry, how is CSX responsible for this?

 

They went back on their promise to share the tracks. Now it has to be double tracked for the redline more than I believe doubling the cost to 1 billion. 

 

North Meck contributes around 4 million dollars to CATS and soaks up 3.7 million in its services. So North Meck nets about 300,000 for cats a year. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/mark-washburn/article178767191.html

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[cltbwimob]

The Red Line was prevented by Norfolk Southern, not CSX.

[Matthew.Brendan]

What’s the cost of Heavy rail versus Light per mile? In the context of building out commuter rail running north. 

[cjd5050]

14 hours ago, kermit said:

^ I believe the ballot language was something like "a sales tax to implement the 2020 Transit Plan" rather than specifics of lines and stops.

I have some sympathy for jednc's position. Lots was implicitly promised (but none of it by CATS, they had to remain politically neutral), but the referendum supporters frequently cited the 2020 plan that said that the BLE would be completed by 2012 (IRRC) and the Red Line would indeed be the second thing built (despite it not being able to get federal money). The referrenda were certainly built around implicit promises, but N Meck is certainly not the only constituency that has gotten screwed.

 

Do you know when NS has to negotiate rates on the parallel main line that runs through Concord toward Greensboro?   That's mentioned at the bottom of this article.

Am I crazy to think that this is a point of leverage?     If North Meck residents want to get their pitchforks out...shouldn't it be to put pressure and make things painful for NS rather than CATS?  At least that makes the most sense to me.  

[lit]

19 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

What’s the cost of Heavy rail versus Light per mile? In the context of building out commuter rail running north. 

Brazil recently built a monorail for $50million per mile. If we’d used the $660million that we spent in the toll lane project, starting at Trade Street (exit 10) and gone North from there, we would have had enough to go 13 miles to Huntersville (exit 23). I know there are a lot more factors but I wonder how they decided the toll lanes would be our best option.

[kermit]

19 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Do you know when NS has to negotiate rates on the parallel main line that runs through Concord toward Greensboro?   That's mentioned at the bottom of this article.

Am I crazy to think that this is a point of leverage?     If North Meck residents want to get their pitchforks out...shouldn't it be to put pressure and make things painful for NS rather than CATS?  At least that makes the most sense to me.  

You are exactly right, the essentially unused tracks in N Meck are being used as negotiating leverage on NS's lease on the NCRR. The N Meck tracks are a theoretical substitute for the NCRR which NS is currently using as their north-south main line.

IIRC the current 15 year lease between NS and the NCRR started in 1999, it had an initial 15 year term and allowed for two mutual consent 15 year extensions. So the lease was renewed in 2014, and will certainly be renewed again in 2029 out to a 2044 lease expiration. (Yes, I genuninely believe that NS is negotiating around a lease expiration that is 25 years away).

Unfortunately the NCRR is in a weak posistion in the negotiations. At the moment NS is the only possible tenant. The NCRR is expensive to maintain (both NS and NCDOT need it to be fast). The tenant is responsible for maintance  so this cost makes it out of reach of shortlines.

[kermit]

11 hours ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

What’s the cost of Heavy rail versus Light per mile? In the context of building out commuter rail running north. 

Apples and oranges at this point. Since CATS may be able to purchase a ROW that already has one welded-rail track and much of the necessary civil engineering for a second track already in place. Given what is already in the ground, construction of double track on the CSX ROW could be as low as $5 million a mile. I suspect things like stations, signals and gates would make the cost of double track to Monroe around $300 million -- plus the purchase of the tracks from CSX. (none of these numbers include vehicle costs)

An LRT silver line to Matthews (not Monroe) will certainly be north of $1 billion

Edited February 22, 2018 by kermit

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, lit said:

Brazil recently built a monorail for $50million per mile.

And they build towers with slave labor in the middle east....

 

[jednc]

20 hours ago, jtmonk said:

Sorry, I would have more sympathy for you if you weren't acting like a child.  

 

I'm acting like a child? Well at least I don't smell bad.

[jednc]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

^ I believe the ballot language was something like "a sales tax to implement the 2020 Transit Plan" rather than specifics of lines and stops.

I have some sympathy for jednc's position. Lots was implicitly promised (but none of it by CATS, they had to remain politically neutral), but the referendum supporters frequently cited the 2020 plan that said that the BLE would be completed by 2012 (IRRC) and the Red Line would indeed be the second thing built (despite it not being able to get federal money). The referrenda were certainly built around implicit promises, but N Meck is certainly not the only constituency that has gotten screwed.

I'm going to let this stand as the proof that was requested. (Hat tip to Kermit)

To anyone else who can't seem to understand why anyone from North Meck would resent supporting a plan by voting for it AND paying into the tax while receiving none of the promised benefits...I can't help you.

Edited February 22, 2018 by jednc
Changed to less obnoxious version...

[jtmonk]

8 minutes ago, jednc said:

I'm acting like a child? Well at least I don't smell bad.

haha true, and sorry for going off like that, bad day yesterday but that doesn't excuse me calling you a child (I think I need to apologize to Cadi40 too in another thread, the way I responded to his post made me sound like I was talking down to him)  I do see you side of the story and understand the frustration, hopefully you guys do get some sort of rail up the North Meck sooner rather than later.  I just want CATS to be smart about the next line they choose to build and not screw up the chances of other lines being built. 

[jednc]

9 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

haha true, and sorry for going off like that, bad day yesterday but that doesn't excuse me calling you a child (I think I need to apologize to Cadi40 too in another thread, the way I responded to his post made me sound like I was talking down to him)  I do see you side of the story and understand the frustration, hopefully you guys do get some sort of rail up the North Meck sooner rather than later.  I just want CATS to be smart about the next line they choose to build and not screw up the chances of other lines being built. 

I certainly don't want them to screw it up either. I want a fully built out network (and impatiently want it ASAP). I just don't want the part that will benefit me the most to keep getting pushed down the list because they can't figure out how to solve the problems they've run up against.

Oh, and apology accepted. =)

Edited February 22, 2018 by jednc

[cjd5050]

27 minutes ago, jednc said:

I'm going to let this stand as the proof that was requested. (Hat tip to Kermit)

To anyone else who can't seem to understand why anyone from North Meck would resent supporting a plan by voting for it AND paying into the tax while receiving none of the promised benefits...I can't help you.

Yes, hat tip to Kermit for setting the record straight and showing that you're wrong.  Here are some of the statements you made in this thread that Kermit has shown to be false:

• CATS shouldn't make promises if they don't control the means to keep those promises. 
• I don't want to repeal the whole thing, just stop paying in Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson if we aren't going to get the train we were promised. 
• As CATS used the promise of the Red Line in order to gain support for the 1/2 transit tax, a plurality of North Meck citizens and taxpayers expect that promise to be kept. 
• But BRT is not what was promised. Why do people find it so easy to break promises or not hold agencies to their promises?
• I will make a deal with the devil (the NCGA) and play on all their worst aspects to stop anything else because I will no longer have any confidence in CATS if they try to weasel out of their promise (a promise made before many on this board even lived here I might add). 
• Well, I can understand what you are saying, but it wasn't me who said the Red Line should be next. It was CATS.
• Of course it was PROMISED. Vote for this transit tax and we will build the Blue Line first and THEN the Red Line. 

What this has proven is:

1. You were never promised a train.  
2. CATS never made the promises you claimed they did.  Proponents of the measure made those claims but not CATS.
3. Your outrage, while somewhat justifiable,  is misdirected.  
4. North Meck residents are not as thorough in the ballot box as you suggest so us 'city folk' don't really have too much to worry about when it comes to secession 

 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

Yes, hat tip to Kermit for setting the record straight and showing that you're wrong.  Here are some of the statements you made in this thread that Kermit has shown to be false:

• CATS shouldn't make promises if they don't control the means to keep those promises. 
• I don't want to repeal the whole thing, just stop paying in Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson if we aren't going to get the train we were promised. 
• As CATS used the promise of the Red Line in order to gain support for the 1/2 transit tax, a plurality of North Meck citizens and taxpayers expect that promise to be kept. 
• But BRT is not what was promised. Why do people find it so easy to break promises or not hold agencies to their promises?
• I will make a deal with the devil (the NCGA) and play on all their worst aspects to stop anything else because I will no longer have any confidence in CATS if they try to weasel out of their promise (a promise made before many on this board even lived here I might add). 
• Well, I can understand what you are saying, but it wasn't me who said the Red Line should be next. It was CATS.
• Of course it was PROMISED. Vote for this transit tax and we will build the Blue Line first and THEN the Red Line. 

What this has proven is:

1. You were never promised a train.  
2. CATS never made the promises you claimed they did.  Proponents of the measure made those claims but not CATS.
3. Your outrage, while somewhat justifiable,  is misdirected.  
4. North Meck residents are not as thorough in the ballot box as you suggest so us 'city folk' don't really have too much to worry about when it comes to secession 

 

It would be easy to ban his messages, but there would be so many responses that I wouldn't have the context so I might as well keep them.

 

Important point. The north Mecklenburg cities of Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson are combined about 94,000 people out of a county population of 1.1m. That is about 8.5% of the population. The South Charlotte triangle is much larger and not represented by a promised new train, but you don't hear many complaints from people in those areas that  understand the train must be built first around denser corridors.