CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

16 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

...I am going to be living in DC and live car free. Disappointed my new toy has disappointing hours. And it led me to research CLT itself ain’t doing to bad in mass transit

It’s been a while since I have lived in DC (and metro was much better then). However I am still confident that it will be MUCH cheaper to use metro when available, and lyft and bikeshare when not, than it would be to park a car in the district. You don’t want that nightmare of parking in DC.

Edited April 19, 2018 by kermit

[jtmonk]

15 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I never realized. But ATL only has 48 miles of rail line between “4” rail lines and a streetcar. 

Charlotte will have around 22 miles after the gold line extension is complete. 

Miami has 24 miles of rail. 

Houston has 22.7 miles of rail . (Seems like for the most part it’s 12 minute frequencies generally and 18 minutes non peak)

 

Not counting commuter because I think commuter can blow (no weekend services, hourly service until like 7pm? Lame. Though I still want the red line :D)

 

I don’t think Tampa, Nashville, Norfolk, Orlando, Raleigh, etc have mass transit rail excluding commuter. And I don’t think any one of them is any far along on their rail lines than we are with the silver line by maybe more than a year or so. 

 

Considering our size relative to ATL, Houston, Miami.... we are doing good with rail and I think there’s a much larger appetite in CLT for rail than other southern cities 

 

And DC...

I know DC, the last train is at like 12:20 the latest -  period. Sunday’s 11am and I think it opens at 9am.  I think ours goes until like 1:10am departing UNCC. So about 1:40am  for uptown towards I485. 

I am going to be living in DC and live car free. Disappointed my new toy has disappointing hours. And it led me to research CLT itself ain’t doing to bad in mass transit

 

 

 

 

Norfolk has a 7.4 mile light rail line called "The Tide".  Durham/Chapel Hill are pretty far along with planning their line, it will most likely be the next line constructed in North Carolina.

[CLT2014]

21 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

Norfolk has a 7.4 mile light rail line called "The Tide". 

That line's ridership stats are pretty sad. 4,800 weekday riders on a 7.4 mile route with a $1,682 annual operating cost subsidy per rider. It doesn't look like it generated much TOD either. 

[tozmervo]

I think some of the numbers are out of date (and I also question the Gold line's inclusion for CATS), but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_ridership provides a nice summary page of all the systems and their ridership. "Boardings by mile" feels like the best apples-to-apples way to sort.

[tozmervo]

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 6:40 PM, nmundo said:

http://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/envisionmyride/Pages/envision-my-ride.aspx

I don't think anyone has posted this yet. CATS has released their overhauled bus system draft for public comment. I really like a lot of the proposed changes, especially with the high frequency additions.

Dropped in on a public express bus meeting for the i-77 north routes, they had this map on a flyer. The graphics are mostly bad, but I love 485 represented as a hexagon. 

Also, the CATS reps were saying that they are planning on a January '19 express lane opening to start the new routes. 

[Spartan]

 

On 4/5/2018 at 2:32 PM, HighRiseHillbilly said:

While a tunnel would be cool, aren't there masses of prohibitive granite under our red dirt? Would a monorail type thing not be more feasible? I know it's not cute, but wouldn't it cost less - and we could use a few of thse saved dollars making unnecessary, but fun loops around the buildings. We would at least stand out among other cities. 

Also, why TF are these studies SO expensive? Why does it cost a handful of dudes millions of dollars to study something that has already been studied? I haven't made a decent salary in far too long, so is that what it is?

There is granite underneath uptown, but it would not preclude a tunnel. It would, however, make it more expensive.

Also, this hasn't been studied before.

 

On 4/17/2018 at 8:38 AM, CLT2014 said:

I love tunnels, but I think the cost just won't justify it. I'd rather have an entirely new light rail line for several miles rather than 1 mile of a tunnel. These are the types of gives and takes that happen with the limited budget for transit. 

LA Metro is building 1.9 miles of new tunnels under downtown Los Angeles to connect their light rail system to their subway system. The cost for 1.9 miles of underground light rail.... $1.75 BILLION. That's almost the cost of the entire Lynx Blue Line over 19 miles. https://www.metro.net/projects/connector/

New York's new Second Avenue Subway line is going to be 8.5 miles and is expected to cost $17 BILLION. 

Tunnels on Seattle's East Link light rail extension (14 miles) is part of the reason the cost has ballooned to $3.7 BILLION. At the cost per mile of the Blue Line extension, Charlotte could have built the light rail to Salisbury for what Seattle is paying for 14 miles due to tunnels and bridges. 

With CATS looking at $5 billion to $7 billion to build 3 lines, the team needs to balance whether they want to cut a line out and just build 1 or 2 lines with a high quality tunnel incorporated or get three lines out of that budget without tunnels. 

There's a big difference between a heavy rail subway tunnel in Manhattan and a light rail tunnel in uptown Charlotte. Regardless of the options available, there are not any inexpensive ones. Tunnels are expensive, but when you're talking about a project that will define the future of the city for multiple generations perhaps it's worth considering all options (regardless of cost) before getting hung up on cost.

The only other alternative is doing something on the surface, which is not without its own implications and costs - some of which are less financially tangible like induced traffic congestion, the impacts of operating mixed traffic, ability to construct stations within limited rights-of-way, etc. 

 

[KJHburg]

what do you  think about these?  could this work in Charlotte?  Trackless trains.  It is interesting sort of like an autonomous bus. 

from San Antonio Journal

""So-called trackless trains could be a way forward for a city of about 1.5 million people that is expected to see a major increase in population but has yet to adopt a more contemporary transportation plan as Austin, Dallas and Houston have.  Mayor Ron Nirenberg, who has made transportation one of his top priorities, is adamant that San Antonio needs more than buses as it pursues a comprehensive transit strategy. He believes the trackless train concept could offer the Alamo City some necessary relief. It might also draw fewer detractors.

Last year, China’s CRRC Corp. unveiled a new transportation system that operates like a bus but resembles a train. The electric vehicle, which can operate autonomously, does not run on rail. Instead, it follows virtual tracks on a dedicated roadway.  “The paradigm change here is that the public is clearly directing us to develop a mass transit option for San Antonio that would exist on its own right of way,” Nirenberg said. “That doesn’t have to mean tracks. It means you are not sitting in the same traffic as if you were driving your own car.”

Zhuzhou, China, has been testing trackless trains, which can carry hundreds of riders, since 2017.  At least one U.S. city has shown an interest in exploring the technology. Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez, has suggested trackless trains could be a more affordable and expeditious option. In March, he took a test ride on the Chinese prototype.   Count Nirenberg among the intrigued. He believes such trains could be a forward-thinking alternative for the nation’s seventh-largest city.""

 

 

[kermit]

18 hours ago, KJHburg said:

what do you  think about these?  could this work in Charlotte?  Trackless trains.  It is interesting sort of like an autonomous bus.

Yea sure maybe. There are a few flags from the plan however.

The first is political, if these things actually run on a dedicated ROW then there will be tons of pressure to allow cars onto the roadway (thus eliminating any speed advantages).

The second is width of ROW and cost. Buses (even autonomous ones) require more space than trains do (trains hopefully never deviate from one fixed path. Buses (thanks to rubber tires) wander a good bit on pavement. Since the ROW for these buses will need to be wider than for LRT it will increase construction cost

The third is the pavement ROW and vehicles will require more maintenance than rail

Fourth, Capacity, although it looks like CRC is saying they can couple several of these buses together so this may not be an issue.

Finally, developer interpretation. Will the RE community see this as a permanent enough transportation option to build around? Developers have shown they don't think buses are sufficient to attract development.

I am having a hard time seeing how this would be cheaper or better than a rail solution.

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by kermit

[JacksonH]

On 4/18/2018 at 3:00 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

I never realized. But ATL only has 48 miles of rail line between “4” rail lines and a streetcar. 

Charlotte will have around 22 miles after the gold line extension is complete. 

Miami has 24 miles of rail. 

Houston has 22.7 miles of rail . (Seems like for the most part it’s 12 minute frequencies generally and 18 minutes non peak)

 

 

That's really surprising to me.  Here in San Diego, we have more than 53 miles of light rail (called San Diego Trolley).  And our SDT Blue Line Extension is under construction now and in a year or  two when completed will add another 11 miles for almost 65 miles of light rail.  On top of that is the Surfliner (heavy rail) that runs from downtown and up through all the coastal suburbs (about 35 miles).  In all about 100 miles of local commuter rail.  That still seems inadequate to me so it's shocking that these much larger cities like Atlanta, Miami and Houston have only a fraction of what we've got here.  U.S. cities need to get on the ball with this.  They're way behind.

Edited April 25, 2018 by JacksonH

[dubone]

Trackless trains sound virtually identical to BRT that has been proposed before.    The idea of rail is that it is steel on steel and you only need to build the foundation and maintain the exact point of contact, the rail.    A BRT, even one built to look like a train is rubber and asphalt and when it designed to follow painted lines, will simply rut out the asphalt, so you have to strengthen it anyway, so why not just put the physical rails in. 

 

[kermit]

The MTC agenda from yesterday's meeting contains the minutes from the March 28 meeting where they debated ending the Red Line study. Its an interesting read that contains a great deal of backstory on the Red Line. One tidbit was that CATS did have an agreement with NS to share the line, however the agreement was not executed when NS decided to change their passenger rail track sharing policy (network wide) in 2013. Long story short, nobody has any idea about how to serve N Meck with high capacity transit.

http://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/boards/MTC Agenda Package/MTC-Agenda-Package-180425.pdf

[kermit]

Today is a big day for the potential Charlotte big bang -- Nashville is voting on its $9 billion transit plan. The reception it gets at the polls will certainly influence the timing, magnitude (time to buildout) and tax structure of our hopefully emerging plan.

Now if CATS can just get the BLE working well....

[CLT2014]

Not a great article title: "Charlotte has been losing transit riders faster than any other large U.S. city"

For the last six months, CATS ridership is down -19%. Bus, streetcar, and on demand response service are all down. Light rail ridership was flat YoY, and then of course up in the month the extension opened. Having a quality bus system is going to be necessary to keeping people on transit... otherwise they will figure out a way to purchase a vehicle to get to work. Hopefully improvements to bus service bring back riders that left. 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article209424959.html

Edited May 1, 2018 by CLT2014

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

In regard to Light rail ridership, since students ride "free" (they don't, they pay student fees)...I guess I'm wondering how student ridership is accounted for when their rides are paid for already.  Do they scan their student id somewhere or is their student id their ticket?  Just wondering if this is skewing ridership numbers? 

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

In regard to Light rail ridership, since students ride "free" (they don't, they pay student fees)...I guess I'm wondering how student ridership is accounted for when their rides are paid for already.  Do they scan their student id somewhere or is their student id their ticket?  Just wondering if this is skewing ridership numbers? 

IDs need to be scanned when boarding buses. Counting on the light rail is done by sensors at the doors of each car, so not scanning or purchasing tickets has no bearing on ridership counts.

[kermit]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

Today is a big day for the potential Charlotte big bang -- Nashville is voting on its $9 billion transit plan. The reception it gets at the polls will certainly influence the timing, magnitude (time to buildout) and tax structure of our hopefully emerging plan.

Now if CATS can just get the BLE working well....

So it appears that Nasvillians really don't want to pay for transit....

[KJHburg]

Nashville Davidson county defeated their  transit plan tonight  yet they seem to getting a 1000 job relocation from NY City a transit oriented city (Alliance Bernstein) 

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/01/nashville-transit-supporters-concede-defeat.html?ana=e_nsh_bn_breakingnews&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525224764&j=81342821

Edited May 2, 2018 by KJHburg

[e-dub]

it's infuriating.

[Dale]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Nashville Davidson county defeated their  transit plan tonight  yet they seem to getting a 1000 job relocation from NY City a transit oriented city (Alliance Bernstein) 

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/01/nashville-transit-supporters-concede-defeat.html?ana=e_nsh_bn_breakingnews&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525224764&j=81342821

Yeah, their statement regarding why they chose Nashville allowed that Nashville still had "reasonable commute times." Apparently, the outcome of the referendum was not going to be an issue.

[15895]

I have full confidence a vote in Charlotte for rail transit would pass. 

Charlotteans, even Just casual folk, do like light rail, want it expanded and I think ordinary charlotteans (The real ones. AKA excluding University area and North Lake.) in general are all about big city appearance. 

[navigator319]

8 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Nashville Davidson county defeated their  transit plan tonight  yet they seem to getting a 1000 job relocation from NY City a transit oriented city (Alliance Bernstein) 

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/01/nashville-transit-supporters-concede-defeat.html?ana=e_nsh_bn_breakingnews&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525224764&j=81342821

I think it is so dumb votes for things are held in a special way and NOT on an election day in a November when turnout would be quadruple and I would assume a MUCH better chance of passing then.  This applies to anything.  I fault whomever in Nashville decided to have a special vote vs. a November ballot question.

[15895]

3 hours ago, navigator319 said:

I think it is so dumb votes for things are held in a special way and NOT on an election day in a November when turnout would be quadruple and I would assume a MUCH better chance of passing then.  This applies to anything.  I fault whomever in Nashville decided to have a special vote vs. a November ballot question.

Disagree. I think a special election would have a better chance of it passing than a general election. 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, navigator319 said:

I think it is so dumb votes for things are held in a special way and NOT on an election day in a November when turnout would be quadruple and I would assume a MUCH better chance of passing then.  This applies to anything.  I fault whomever in Nashville decided to have a special vote vs. a November ballot question.

I disagree. It is much easier to rally the troops (focused push) to come and vote then to convince the general voting population.

[asthasr]

This is a really good article about bus ridership: http://humantransit.org/2015/07/mega-explainer-the-ridership-recipe.html

[southslider]

^CATS has roughly 70 routes, of which a dozen carry half of all riders. Not surprisingly, those few routes are the only ones running better than 30 minutes all day.