CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

Here is a brief discussion of full-cost accounting for a 5km commute by four different transport modes in Vancouver.

https://www.thediscourse.ca/cities/full-cost-commute

In theory these numbers should include the direct (e.g. maintenance) and indirect (e.g. air quality, health care, etc.) costs of transport, although its inevitable that something will be omitted.

The figures from Vancouver:
Driving: costs society $2.78 (for 5km).
Riding the bus: costs society 38¢
Biking: *saves* society 75¢
Walking: *saves* society $1.08

These numbers are over and above what individuals spend for the trip (e.g. drivers pay $6.47). Also keep in mind that gas taxes are much higher in Canada so US driving figures may be higher.

CATS had better be working on numbers like these for the big bang campaign.

Edited May 4, 2018 by kermit

[southslider]

^Costs society?  How quaintly Canadian. 

[cltbwimob]

6 hours ago, southslider said:

^Costs society?  How quaintly Canadian. 

Quaintly Canadian in its appeal but also a well known economic concept.

Edited May 5, 2018 by cltbwimob

[KJHburg]

Nashville looking to the sky as a transit option Gondolas!  https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/08/metrocouncil-member-looks-to-the-sky-for.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-05-08&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525817511&j=81470261

Not sure what to think of this.

[Crucial_Infra]

13 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Nashville looking to the sky as a transit option Gondolas!  https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/08/metrocouncil-member-looks-to-the-sky-for.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-05-08&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525817511&j=81470261

Not sure what to think of this.

And y'all thought power lines were ugly 

[SgtCampsalot]

54 minutes ago, Crucial_Infra said:

And y'all thought power lines were ugly 

Doesn't Cleveland have this, their "People Mover"? Though theirs in an attraction, not transit.

It's just kind of hard to imagine a network of cable-suspended gondola cars being feasible over that large a metro... though is that me being stuck in my paradigm?

[Crucial_Infra]

4 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Doesn't Cleveland have this, their "People Mover"? Though theirs in an attraction, not transit.

It's just kind of hard to imagine a network of cable-suspended gondola cars being feasible over that large a metro... though is that me being stuck in my paradigm?

I only know of Detroit's which is a monorail. I think Cleveland's was never approved.  The whole thing looks like something you'd ride at the state fair though I bet it'd have some cool views. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Crucial_Infra

[KJHburg]

Seriously maybe in a tourist city like Nashville this would work or from downtown Miami to Miami Beach but in Charlotte I don't think so.  Maybe @ricky_davis_fan_21 can do a mock up of a Charlotte gondola somewhere in our fine city when he has time. 

[elrodvt]

There's the Singapore one. I hated it since I am afraid of heights and it was windy. Impressive looking though. It's really more part of a park than serious public transit imho.

https://www.onefabergroup.com/singapore-cable-car-sky-network/

[kermit]

^ if it doesn't work in London it aint gonna work in Nashville.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/emirates-air-line-performance-data 

(it was built for the Olympics and it still connects the city's largest concert facility to its largest convention center (on the other side of the Thames) as well as filling a minor gap in the underground system. It now runs at less than 10% capacity)

Edited May 9, 2018 by kermit

[UPNoDa]

Although it's not not connecting to Downtown Orlando,  Disney's Skyliner is currently under construction to serve four of their five parks respectively.  No mention of a Magic Kingdom extension but found it odd that they terminated at EPCOT/BeachClub when the EPCOT monorail station is just a few blocks up the road. 

 

pic source:  Attractions Magazine

Edited May 9, 2018 by UPNoDa

[Hunted]

I went snowboarding one time in Colorado. Ugh, those ugly things were EVERYWHERE.

Jokes aside, I feel like gondolas are a novelty and not really very practical. 

[EllAyyDub]

I could see a gondola working as a point to point airport to uptown option no stops in between. (Hold your pitchforks & all figures ballparked)

They are relatively cheap like $10-$15m per mile so all-in under $100m for ~6 miles (I have read streetcar cost ~4x and light rail ~8x as much per mile).  Not sure capacity of streetcar (current west corridor option) but assuming its maxes at 150-200 and 10-15 minute headways that's about 1,000 capacity per hour, comparable to a gondola going 10-15 passengers every 30 seconds with the benefit of not having to wait for a car.  The downside is that there would be no room for economic development along the route, but the current streetcar line isn't exactly booming either.

All that said I would prefer light rail from Matthews to airport.

[Dale]

Nashville sports a 2.2% transit commute share. In other words, almost no transit ridership. So, why not a gondola ? It might accord well with Nashville's tourism persona.

[CLT2014]

13 hours ago, kermit said:

^ if it doesn't work in London it aint gonna work in Nashville.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/emirates-air-line-performance-data 

(it was built for the Olympics and it still connects the city's largest concert facility to its largest convention center (on the other side of the Thames) as well as filling a minor gap in the underground system. It now runs at less than 10% capacity)

There's a lot more to do in London though and varied types of tourists. Nashville tourists are more into finding the highest point possible to grab a $7 Bud Light, raise it in the air, and shout "WOOOHOOOOOOOO She's $*@$*@$ getting married yall, WOOOHOOOOO!!!!!"

Just imagine how much WOOHOOOing one can do from a gondola. It actually might work. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by CLT2014

[JacksonH]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:13 PM, KJHburg said:

Nashville looking to the sky as a transit option Gondolas!  https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/08/metrocouncil-member-looks-to-the-sky-for.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-05-08&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525817511&j=81470261

Not sure what to think of this.

 

Like Caracas?

 

  

 

On 5/8/2018 at 4:32 PM, SgtCampsalot said:

Doesn't Cleveland have this, their "People Mover"? Though theirs in an attraction, not transit.

It's just kind of hard to imagine a network of cable-suspended gondola cars being feasible over that large a metro... though is that me being stuck in my paradigm?

 

Caracas is certainly a much, much larger metro than Nashville or Cleveland, and the gondola is a very serious, and greatly used mode of transport there. 

 

I love the idea of the gondola.  This could be the answer to connecting the SouthPark to the blue line, or Pineville or Ballantyne. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by JacksonH

[elrodvt]

It's a dumb idea which will NEVER happen. 

[Hunted]

On 5/12/2018 at 3:24 PM, JacksonH said:

Like Caracas?

Caracas is certainly a much, much larger metro than Nashville or Cleveland, and the gondola is a very serious, and greatly used mode of transport there. 

I love the idea of the gondola.  This could be the answer to connecting the SouthPark to the blue line, or Pineville or Ballantyne. 

I think there's a large cultural component to transportation that is often overlooked. For example, in Italy, there's no shame in riding around Rome in a Vespa. In the United States, the average American would think they were sacrificing a bit of their dignity if they gave up their car for a moped. I think that sentiment translates to other modes of transportation as well.  Something that is popular or even seen as practical in other places might not be viewed in the same light in the U.S. is all I'm saying. Americans prioritize the automobile above all else. Substitutes have to be VERY compelling to convince Americans to use other methods of transportation. The alternative options need to be overwhelmingly obvious.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Sorry, Vespa is not a moped. /Proud owner of 2012 GTS 300. (I’ll likely beat your car in acceleration and handling while turning in 70+ MPG. So..... yeah.)

[elrodvt]

Riding any 2 wheeled vehicle here is risking death or maiming. Otherwise I would get one. I'm not as brave as Matthew and that is one sweet ride!

[Matthew.Brendan]

Charlotte once again has an official Vespa dealer btw, shared space with Harley Davidson in between Sardis North and Sam Newell. (Last one off South Blvd closed shop in 20xx?)  Mine’s in for spring tune up. /off topic. 

[JacksonH]

On 5/12/2018 at 2:47 PM, elrodvt said:

It's a dumb idea which will NEVER happen. 

This sounds like Charlotte mentality, always several steps behind.    It's a dumb idea until it becomes the best and most practical idea.  Smart cars were a dumb idea until tons of people started buying them.  Public wifi used to be a dumb idea, now it's expected.   I can remember when building the original Blue Line was a "dumb idea."  Charlotte may eventually get on board with this approach to public transit, but not until after it becomes established in other U.S. cities (it's rarely Charlotte's place to be the innovator or the visionary or the ground-breaker).

https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/16340394/urban-gondolas-cable-cars-cities

https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/are-gondolas-next-big-thing-urban-transit

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/austin-gondola/

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/25/gondolas-urban-transit-solution/

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2013/04/golden-age-gondolas-might-be-just-around-corner/5220/

 

Build a Gondola right down Tyvola/Fairview to SouthPark to connect with the Blue Line (no need to rebuild the road and take land away from property owners like you would need to do  with a rail line).  Build one from I-485 Station to downtown Pineville and Carolina Place Mall.

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by JacksonH

[elrodvt]

I agree CLT is always way behind and believe me I am not of a Charlotte mentality! LOL.

It's still a dumb idea though.... Quick, do we have a transit engineer on the forum? 

JH, BTW, I hope you don't take offense to my "dumb" adjective.  Not aimed at you personally!

Edited May 14, 2018 by elrodvt

[Merthecat]

Regarding the gondola discussion, I am reminded of a YouTube video discussing the possibility of cable transport:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdTE4TCqkZo

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Although it is far from reality, there is a proposal to have a gondola transport people over the Potomac between Georgetown and Rosslyn-Arlington.