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CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines


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The Big Bang Theory (Transit not the sitcom) - How have other metros done this successfully?  Is 6$ to 8$ BillionEven possible without NCGA and/or Federal  Fund?

Another question I have is more about the economic impact of LRT or Commuter Rail Transit.  Which style of fixed rail transit tends to spur more economic / development activities?  For instance with MARTA being a medium rail/commuter rail style of Transit in ATL have they seen the type of growth along their lines as we have on the Blue Line LRT?

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9 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

The Big Bang Theory (Transit not the sitcom) - How have other metros done this successfully?  Is 6$ to 8$ BillionEven possible without NCGA and/or Federal  Fund?

Denver is probably the best example in the US. Six lines, 12 years, about $6.5 billion (ish).

Believe it or not Federal funding for transit has expanded this year thanks to the incompetence of republican budget negotiators. $3-4 billion local dollars are possible with either a regional funding mechanism (unlikely I think) or using a 30 year bonding strategy combined with a new dedicated tax. Unfortunately any new revenue source will require the approval of the NCGA (even if they don't contribute a penny), this is unlikely to happen until we have a regime change in Raleigh.

IIRC Dallas built the largest LRT system in the US without any state contributions.

 

9 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Another question I have is more about the economic impact of LRT or Commuter Rail Transit.  Which style of fixed rail transit tends to spur more economic / development activities?  For instance with MARTA being a medium rail/commuter rail style of Transit in ATL have they seen the type of growth along their lines as we have on the Blue Line LRT?

The growth generated by rail is more a product of real estate cycles (plus the mood of financial markets) and zoning than of rail technology. While MARTA has the capacity to carry orders of magnitude more people than our LRT it has had relatively little impact on Atlanta landuse. This was partially due to when the system opened (during the era of people thinking that auto-oriented sprawl was cool), and partially due to Atlanta not changing any zoning to allow or encourage higher density development in station areas. This has all begun to change over the past 5-10 years, but its still very slow going in Atlanta. (TLDR: heavy rail has more potential, but it takes MANY years for landuse to change enough to take advantage of its higher capacity).

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9 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

Sorry for this being OT, but does anybody know if buying a Lynx ticket from the CATS Pass app would cover bus passes as well? I need to get from CLT to eastern Charlotte. 

It should. 

If the phone doesn’t scan on the bus, just show the driver. 

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20 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

The Big Bang Theory (Transit not the sitcom) - How have other metros done this successfully?  Is 6$ to 8$ BillionEven possible without NCGA and/or Federal  Fund?

Another question I have is more about the economic impact of LRT or Commuter Rail Transit.  Which style of fixed rail transit tends to spur more economic / development activities?  For instance with MARTA being a medium rail/commuter rail style of Transit in ATL have they seen the type of growth along their lines as we have on the Blue Line LRT?

1- There is no way to fund $6-8 Billion without federal funds. It just won't work. 

2- MARTA is heavy rail (as opposed to light rail), and yes, they have seen significant growth around their stations. Their situation is a bit different though because MARTA actually owned most of the land around its suburban /non-subway stations, so they only started developing it in the past 15 years or so.

3- The development patterns around light rail and commuter rail are similar, and commuter rail does not generate the same type of TOD activity. Not to say that there isn't any, but CR doesn't serve your day to day needs since it generally only runs during rush hour (and a few times during the day too).

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37 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Thanks for the detailed breakdown.  Seems like Federal and State Funding are far fetched.  I guess the Silver & Red Lines being built may be never.

I'd bet a lot of money that the Silver line gets built in the next 15-20 years.  Red line feels much less likely for a variety of reasons.

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I want an upgraded fancy bus line with frequent headways down Central Ave. Call it a pilot program.

Then after that proves a success, Beatties Ford Rd... or Freedom Drive... or some corridor like those.

I am getting exhausted at the idea  of waiting for Rail to save us. My most favorite time was when I commuted from Matthews on an Express bus; so clean, smooth, and luxurious. Why can't we just have that everywhere in 5 years, rather than waiting until the bad growth consumes us to get nice rail lines?

Edited by SgtCampsalot
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23 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I want an upgraded fancy bus line with frequent headways down Central Ave. Call it a pilot program.

Then after that proves a success, Beatties Ford Rd... or Freedom Drive... or some corridor like those.

I am getting exhausted at the idea  of waiting for Rail to save us. My most favorite time was when I commuted from Matthews on an Express bus; so clean, smooth, and luxurious. Why can't we just have that everywhere in 5 years, rather than waiting until the bad growth consumes us to get nice rail lines?

 

The Sprinter pretty much died.

No more green busses and it used to have actual passengers. Now it seems the times I’ve ridden to be a couple airport employees at most going to the airport and the rest being gypsies, tramps, thieves and hookers traversing Wilkinson.

 

I have zero faith any fancy bus thing will catch on.

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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16 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

The Sprinter pretty much died.

No more green busses and it used to have actual passengers. Now it seems the times I’ve ridden to be a couple airport employees at most going to the airport and the rest being gypsies, tramps, thieves and hookers traversing Wilkinson.

 

I have zero faith any fancy bus thing will catch on.

Point taken, but it's never actually been tried. Only half-a$$ed.

Also, I wouldn't consider the airport line to be the same thing. That's a destination line, rather than a true daily-use transit line.

Minneapolis seems to have figured it out

Edited by SgtCampsalot
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If a bus line is already successful, like on Central, then improvements are a good evolution of that service.  

In the case of the airport Sprinter, I used to push for my friends and visitors to use it, and I used it when I could.  I got burned by it once and switched to Lyft/Uber and never went back.  

Express bus IS the best way to service our outer suburbs, especially in combination with Express lanes on the arterial highway to make sure the lanes move.   

 

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56 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The Sprinter pretty much died.

No more green busses and it used to have actual passengers. Now it seems the times I’ve ridden to be a couple airport employees at most going to the airport and the rest being gypsies, tramps, thieves and hookers traversing Wilkinson.

I have zero faith any fancy bus thing will catch on.

Business travelers heading to Uptown are just going to pay $14 bucks each way for an 15 minute Uber into Uptown and expense it to their corporate account. Many companies actively encourage their employees to take Uber or Lyft due to a synchronized expense system and perception that it is safer for employees when visiting cities they aren't familiar with. My employer also gets a discounted rate when I use Uber and the receipt goes directly to the company. If I take transit and expense it, I have to upload the ticket stub or receipt as proof of payment in Concur. 71% of business ground travel from an airport is now ride-sharing per Certify. 

For locals, CLT airport has pretty cheap parking. At $7 per day, you could park for $49 for the whole week, you feel in control of what time you arrive at the airport, don't have to drag your suitcase to a transit stop and wait in the elements, and can go directly door to door. I would guess local resident travel between Uptown Charlotte and the airport is less than 300  passengers per day so any other locals would have to connect in Uptown.

Even for residents directly off the light rail like SouthEnd and UNCC, it is faster to just drive directly to the airport.

Example: Silos SouthEnd to CLT Airport
- 13 minutes in the car (6.6 miles)
- 51 minutes via transit: 11 minute ride from New Bern Station to Charlotte Transit Center, 15 minute waiting period at Charlotte Transit Center, 25 minute ride on the Sprinter from Charlotte Transit Center to CLT Airport.
- Transit ends up being 4 times as long to get to the airport if you have to make a connection like this. So for anybody not RIGHT in Uptown, it is going to be faster to avoid the train connection / wrong way travel. 

Example: UNCC to CLT Airport
- 17 minutes in the car (14 miles). Let's say peak rush hour 45 minutes. 
- 63 minutes via transit: 33 minute ride on the Blue line from UNCC to Charlotte Transit Center, 5 minute waiting at Charlotte Transit Center, 25 minute rider on the Sprinter from Charlotte Transit Center to CLT Airport. 

Edited by CLT2014
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  • 2 weeks later...

Question from the Davidson mayor to the director of CATS at the last MTC meeting:

Quote
Mayor Knox asked if there was anything the works with this that offers some leeway for negotiation with Norfolk Southern for relief on the north end. Mr. Lewis replied that there was not; he wished there was
.

A LRT to Davidson is gonna seriously break the bank.

http://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/boards/MTC Agenda Package/MTC-Agenda-Package-180627.pdf#search=CATS

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You really have to feel for the folks living up there.  No rail in sight after passing a tax for it.  Boondoggle on 77.  

What's interesting to me is how little bad press Norfolk Southern gets locally.  Not sure if it would do any good but the CO has no problem running lines on other companies.  

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4 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

You really have to feel for the folks living up there.  No rail in sight after passing a tax for it.  Boondoggle on 77.  

What's interesting to me is how little bad press Norfolk Southern gets locally.  Not sure if it would do any good but the CO has no problem running lines on other companies.  

I don't blame NS.  Private company, no obligation to help.  I agree though...lake folks got screwed and no end in sight.

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14 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

I thought NS backed out of an agreement.  

there was never anything on paper. Some folks say that NS did change its tune on the tacit agreement to share tracks, others say that the handshake sharing agreement was nothing more than a figment of CATS' imagination -- the history is fuzzy. 

Edited by kermit
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2 hours ago, kermit said:

there was never anything on paper. Some folks say that NS did change its tune on the tacit agreement to share tracks, others say that the handshake sharing agreement was nothing more than a figment of CATS' imagination -- the history is fuzzy. 

Figured you would know where the bodies are.   

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10 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

You really have to feel for the folks living up there.  No rail in sight after passing a tax for it.  Boondoggle on 77.  

What's interesting to me is how little bad press Norfolk Southern gets locally.  Not sure if it would do any good but the CO has no problem running lines on other companies.  

You really have to feel for the folks living in the city of Charlotte which are 80% of the population of Mecklenburg county, live in more transit-supportive neighborhood density with more economic diversity, and live in a more reasonable distance from their workplaces and don't necessarily setup their daily lives around a 40 mile round trip interstate commute.  North Meck towns are only 9% of the population of Meck County, and that counts a whole lot of area that is no where near the 77 / Red Line corridor.  

The North Mecklenburg residents are amazingly lucky that they got an accelerated interstate expansion and all they have to do is pay for it.    The rail that they wanted had a projected a small fraction of that of the much maligned streetcar because the streetcar route goes through dense neighborhoods with lots of human beings,  living in an actual city.     

Norfolk Southern actually saved the day by sparing us of a real boondoggle, the Red Line. 

We all pay for infrastructure and public services we don't use, but we all want our leaders to sort out reasonable and fair ways to allocate that infrastructure, and not let people waste those resources.    

 

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1 hour ago, dubone said:

You really have to feel for the folks living in the city of Charlotte which are 80% of the population of Mecklenburg county, live in more transit-supportive neighborhood density with more economic diversity, and live in a more reasonable distance from their workplaces and don't necessarily setup their daily lives around a 40 mile round trip interstate commute.  North Meck towns are only 9% of the population of Meck County, and that counts a whole lot of area that is no where near the 77 / Red Line corridor.  

The North Mecklenburg residents are amazingly lucky that they got an accelerated interstate expansion and all they have to do is pay for it.    The rail that they wanted had a projected a small fraction of that of the much maligned streetcar because the streetcar route goes through dense neighborhoods with lots of human beings,  living in an actual city.     

Norfolk Southern actually saved the day by sparing us of a real boondoggle, the Red Line. 

We all pay for infrastructure and public services we don't use, but we all want our leaders to sort out reasonable and fair ways to allocate that infrastructure, and not let people waste those resources.    

Ya a whole lot of economic diversity in Meyers Park.   Those estates in South Park are featured in New Urbanism weekly.

This kind of indifference towards people who are a part of our community but not like you is the epitome of bigotry.  

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3 hours ago, dubone said:

You really have to feel for the folks living in the city of Charlotte which are 80% of the population of Mecklenburg county, live in more transit-supportive neighborhood density with more economic diversity, and live in a more reasonable distance from their workplaces and don't necessarily setup their daily lives around a 40 mile round trip interstate commute.  North Meck towns are only 9% of the population of Meck County, and that counts a whole lot of area that is no where near the 77 / Red Line corridor.  

The North Mecklenburg residents are amazingly lucky that they got an accelerated interstate expansion and all they have to do is pay for it.    The rail that they wanted had a projected a small fraction of that of the much maligned streetcar because the streetcar route goes through dense neighborhoods with lots of human beings,  living in an actual city.     

Norfolk Southern actually saved the day by sparing us of a real boondoggle, the Red Line. 

We all pay for infrastructure and public services we don't use, but we all want our leaders to sort out reasonable and fair ways to allocate that infrastructure, and not let people waste those resources.    

 

Reasonable position.  However, I suspect that the 9% of the population living by the lake pay a much larger share of property taxes.  If not a train, they at least deserve free lanes on the freeway.

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8 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

It’s not bigotry.

But transit systems need to cater to more than just the primary cities IMO. And LKN is due their fair share of a rail line. 

big·ot·ry
noun
- intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

I absolutely feel a level of intolerance exists here and is evident in comments like the one above towards people do don't live in the first or second ring.  As if living on the Lake or in outside of the 485 is offensive.  It's also a bit silly as Charlotte has some of the most suburban 'urban' neighborhoods out there.  It's not like Myers Park is Park Slope.   

Regional transit needs to serve the region.  Especially when the region is paying for it.  The silly idea that somehow the close you live to Trade/Tryon the more important your needs are or you're opinion being more valid is just that...silly.

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