CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[cjd5050]

2 hours ago, JoshuaDrown said:

I hear you, @cjd5050 about a certain level of intolerance towards those not living in the inner core neighborhoods, but @dubone is correct from a transit planning perspective. We do not have the budget to build transit in whimsy, it has to be done with intentionality... and hard decisions have to be made about the routes, the corridors, the residents, the economic and political climate, future development, and density. Neither the Gold Line or the Blue line go through the more "suburban 'urban' neighborhoods" of Myers Park and South Park that you mention.

The Silver Line, however, will service so many neighborhoods in great need... with residents that have far fewer choices in residence and transit than our neighbors that would utilize the Red Line. The true intolerance, a grand societal intolerance, is to minimize the struggle of those at, near, or below the poverty line... people with tenuous job opportunities, fewer options for getting to work, and a massive under supply of affordable housing. Many of our North Mecklenburg neighbors have choice... they chose to live in an area with a challenging commute. Being tax payers like the rest of us, we certainly should plan for transit solutions for them, but it must fit within the greater plan of providing the most service to the most people, and preferably to the people with the greatest need.

I hope the Big Bang gets built, I hope the Red Line gets built, but if we have to make hard choices, I choose the Silver Line.

4

The reason I mentioned neighborhoods like Myers Park and South Park, and I could include most of Charlotte as well, is that these neighborhoods do nothing and actually work against the idea of providing the most service to the most people.    These are not transit friendly or community friendly neighborhoods.  The people who live here are not 'pitching in' to the collective good.  If anything they are working against it.  See. The NAI Southern project that was fought by many residents.   There are multiple communities that are much more urban in design, better land use and everything that we all here want.  The only difference is they are quite a bit of distance from Trade and Tryon and are closer to the lake.  At it seems that people think they should be penalized for that arbitrary distance to uptown.  

I understand that the gold line and the blue line don't go through these neighborhoods but that's a bit of the issue.  No?  Again, if the goal is to provide the most service to the most people we would be talking about a vastly difference Park Road and Providence Road.  But ideas such as this are DOA.  I suspect from people who wag their finger at North Meck residents, while at the same time, saying Not In My Back Yard...which is absurd.  

By my estimation, less than 20% of Charlotte is urban and working towards the collective good when it comes to thinking about development and redevelopment from a regional perspective.  So I have an issue with the claim that 80% live in Charlotte and they should be serviced first.  We agree 100% on the Big Bang but I would like to go further than that.  I want to see Charlotte create an 'open season' on Park, Queens, Randolph, and 7th for mixed-use design.  Any parcel on these streets should get an instant approval for a massive density upgrade if the owners want it.  

[archiham04]

6 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

  I want to see Charlotte create an 'open season' on Park, Queens, Randolph, and 7th for mixed-use design.  Any parcel on these streets should get an instant approval for a massive density upgrade if the owners want it.  

I would add Providence Rd to this list.

[kermit]

7 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I want to see Charlotte create an 'open season' on Park, Queens, Randolph, and 7th for mixed-use design.  Any parcel on these streets should get an instant approval for a massive density upgrade if the owners want it.  

One realistic option is for the UDO to immediately double residential densities. All 'normal sized' single family lots could add an accessory dwelling or be converted to duplexes. Some streamlining of parcel combination for townhouse projects would also be useful.  Lots on corners could be quadrupled (I think they already permit duplexes by right).  I believe Durham is discussing this for most of its intown parcels.

Higher densities would be better but I suspect this would be as much change as the city would want to push.

[cjd5050]

21 minutes ago, archiham04 said:

I would add Providence Rd to this list.

Absolutely.  just a brain fart in not including.

[dubone]

Myers Park voted 80% for the transit tax.  North Meck voted for it too (at 65%).  In fact, in looking through the data, it was kind of cool because literally every precinct in the whole county voted to keep the transit tax with the exception of two precincts which were just slightly on the wrong side of 50-50 splits, 224 around the White Water Center and 236 which is the very far east corner of Meck east of Mint Hill.  Outer Mint Hill is easy, because it probably gets nearly no CATS service at all and is definitely not in the plans.  Interestingly 224 is the precinct that would be on the west corridor just west of the airport, so maybe in 2008 there enough voters  mad that the West corridor was put on hold that they voted to repeal at the time.  

The whole county does get some benefit of buses, which work quite well for suburban locations where multiple activity centers need to be served.  North Meck actually will be getting an upgrade in its express bus service once 77 is expanded because the bus fare is paid in lieu of tolls and but riders get the benefit of those 45mph minimum lanes.   It was all partly why the express bus had about half the expected riders in the models as the train had.    If run today, the models may show something different with the population growth maybe higher than they plugged in at the time.  

Looking at the QOL maps tells a huge story in which areas are more densely populated and those contributing to traffic with long single-car-auto commutes.   We do need to serve suburban areas with transit to help lure many of those drivers off the road, but those are also hard to convince to ride.   I know some individuals with epic commutes and most of them would never even begin to think of transit.  Others may have a short commute but no ability to afford urban parking and they would ride transit in a heartbeat. 

https://mcmap.org/qol/#47/

 

For the record, I'm not intolerant of pro-LKN thinking.   They are great towns and I'm glad they are in Meck county.  But from a transit point of view, lines like the Silver and the Gold line extension out Beatties Ford and Central serve more people, and those in demographics more likely to need and ride transit.   

 

Quote

 

dis·cus·sion

dəˈskəSH(ə)n/

the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

 

 

[navigator319]

Just more fantastic news out of the recent NC budget for transit.   Get out and vote in November to throw the bums out!

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2018/07/03/charlotte-transit-agency-looking-closely-at.html

The State Maintenance Assistance Program, which provides funding for transit systems across the state, has been slashed by more than $8.5 million, as previously reported by the Triangle Business Journal, a sister publication of the Charlotte Business Journal. Of all agencies, Charlotte's funding was cut the most, representing a reduction of nearly $3.2 million between fiscal year 2019 and FY 2018, according to data from the N.C. Department of Transportation.

The Charlotte Area Transit System said in a statement Tuesday that funds from SMAP were included in CATS' budget for fiscal 2019 that was approved by the Metropolitan Transit Commission in May and adopted in June. Following that approval, the agency was informed that those funds would be reduced by more than $3 million, or about 26%, from the year prior. Charlotte was allocated nearly $11.1 million in FY 2018 and has a little less than $7.9 million allocated for fiscal 2019. For CATS, FY 2019 is July 1, 2018 to June 30, 2019.

[Dale]

What does it matter ? People aren't using it, are they ?

[southslider]

31 minutes ago, Dale said:

What does it matter ? People aren't using it, are they ?

Overall system is up in ridership. 

[Dale]

Just now, southslider said:

Overall system is up in ridership. 

Way down in buses though ? Novelty of new Blue Line ?

[southslider]

Just now, Dale said:

Way down in buses though ? Novelty of new Blue Line ?

Efficient use of new crosstown rail service

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

What does it matter ? People aren't using it, are they ?

My wife and I use transit every day (as do several other UPers)

It matters because these cuts may put every transit system in the state into a death spiral. Reductions in funding lead to service cuts — whuch leads people to find transit less useful — which forces people onto roads. There is tons of evidence that shows the best way to increase ridership is to increase frequency.

[CLT2014]

Would a modest fare increase be enough to make up the gap or would that just drive people into cars?

[15895]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

My wife and I use transit every day (as do several other UPers)

It matters because these cuts may put every transit system in the state into a death spiral. Reductions in funding lead to service cuts — whuch leads people to find transit less useful — which forces people onto roads. There is tons of evidence that shows the best way to increase ridership is to increase frequency.

This x100 for any system.

15 minute headway’s are torture. They can get up to 30 minutes to an hour. I had a car in Charlotte buy used transit mostly.

 

hop on the train to Sharon, try to catch the Ballantyne bus. I would just miss it watching it go away and sit there for an hour for the next bus. Even in DC, weekends are BS when I have to wait 15 minutes on a train home (which is crazy consider this particular stretch is served by 3 lines. And then 20 minutes if you go to an area served by 1 line. It’s bull)

[Hushpuppy321]

3 hours ago, Dale said:

What does it matter ? People aren't using it, are they ?

Lots of people use Transit including several of my kids that use it to get to UNCC and CPCC.  This really sucks that the NCGA doesn't fund Transit more appropriately.  Just because they don't find it to be a priority - Multiple Cities within the State do find it be be a priority and should be able to apply and receive adequate funding from State Government that should be a partner.

[DMann]

Anyone think that if the Triangle gets Apple, Amazon, or both that transit at least in that area will get proper funding?

[Hushpuppy321]

Very good question but I think it wouldn't matter.  Not at least with this current General Assembly in power.  They'd say well if these two companies chose this area without transit currently in place then they might feel it's not necessary.

[Dale]

Across the nation, most big cities are losing transit riders.

But nowhere is the decline more pronounced than Charlotte, which is shedding transit passengers faster than any of the other 50 largest cities, according to data from the Federal Transit Administration.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article209424959.html

Read more here: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article209424959.html#storylink=cpy

[11 HouseBZ]

Could that be more pronounced in Charlotte because of a state gov that is highly opposed to public transportation? I'm not sure how other states gov's compared to NC in this regard. But perhaps this could be a part of the reason? 

Edited July 5, 2018 by 11 HouseBZ

[CLT2014]

11 hours ago, 11 HouseBZ said:

Could that be more pronounced in Charlotte because of a state gov that is highly opposed to public transportation? I'm not sure how other states gov's compared to NC in this regard. But perhaps this could be a part of the reason? 

It is likely due to the city bus system not connecting people efficiently between where they work and live. In many of the neighborhoods where people are most likely to use transit, they are scrapping money together to buy a car because the bus system is unreliable and doesn't get to where they work on-time. In addition, people that were dependent on transit have been pushed out of neighborhoods closer to the city center due to rising housing costs and forced to buy a car to live at their suburban apartment building with cheaper rent. They are then replaced in the city center area that has more bus routes by a person making $100,000 a year, owns a car, and only use the light rail for getting home on a Friday night after drinking, but still drive their BMW 3 series to work to look cool. 

Edited July 5, 2018 by CLT2014

[Desert Power]

17 hours ago, Dale said:

Across the nation, most big cities are losing transit riders.

But nowhere is the decline more pronounced than Charlotte, which is shedding transit passengers faster than any of the other 50 largest cities, according to data from the Federal Transit Administration.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article209424959.html

Read more here: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article209424959.html#storylink=cpy

I really hate this decision:  

CATS also said its decision last summer to end the free Gold Rush shuttle has also hurt ridership. CATS ended the uptown line because of streetcar construction.

Ending the Gold Rush has cost CATS between 20,000 and 25,000 trips per month. But even if those riders had stayed, CATS' losses in the last six months would still be about 18 percent.

[Hunted]

On 7/4/2018 at 2:36 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Lots of people use Transit including several of my kids that use it to get to UNCC and CPCC.

If several of your kids use it, I have to assume a few of your kids don't. My curiosity is killing me. How many kids do you have?

[Hushpuppy321]

7 hours ago, Hunted said:

If several of your kids use it, I have to assume a few of your kids don't. My curiosity is killing me. How many kids do you have?

I  have three (3).  The UNCC student used to drive direct initially (meaning dropped off by car on campus) but the 35/40 min drive during rush hour got the best of her (Due to Gas, the crush at the school entrances on UC Blvd and the high price of the UNCC Campus Parking Pass).  Instead now drives 10 min to LRT Park n Ride and takes 50 min ride to campus.   Ordinary humans (joke) that don't yet or anymore have college kids have no idea how bad on campus traffic is as well as the daily parking deck debacles.  My kid regularly tells me that a lot of students that drive are routinely late to class - mostly due to CLT rush hour traffic  plus the UNCC park deck mania and how long it takes to get into one, park and walk out.  The LRT and Campus shuttles are amazing.  Many more students will do this in the upcoming Semester.

 

The CPCC student rides along with the sibling to the LRT Park & Ride and both take the Blue Line Uptown.  She then takes the Goldline to CPCC Central Campus.  Due to where we live in South Meck we had options of several different CPCC Campuses (Harper/Levine) but choose Central because of its Uptown location having a multiplicity of transportation options.  They both get out of classes at different days/times but she can take Goldline to Blueline South to connecting CATS Bus Line to within 15 min walk home. This is how will be getting to class when schedules differ.  

 

The third is actually in Graduate school down in Florida and lives on campus.

 

I'm all for Transit but not a fanatic, more of a realist.  I understand that for it to work it must get people to places they need to go and at a reasonable timeframe and costs.  I think Charlottes Growth (and Growth Trajectory) is at the point where multiple Transit Corridors can be established, efficient and effective but the State Government must have complete Buy-In and assist with finances and legislation.

[kermit]

Stumbled across an interesting CDOT document from November, Charlotte Railroad Projects Update (not sure why I haven't seen it before).

http://charlottenc.gov/Projects/Documents/CharlotteRailroadProjectsUpdate.pdf

Overall there is not much in it that we have not already discussed. But I saw a  couple of things that surprised me:

• The Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the Atlanta to Charlotte passenger rail corridor should be released "sometime in 2018." GDOT appears to be pushing these studies with a new urgency these days.
• The ACWR relocation (listed as "unfunded") location has a bit more detail here (see below for a screenshot of the inset map on p 25). The new tracks appear to come off the NCRR just behind Divine Brewing -- it looks like the new tracks will take the NoDa Rehearsals building and possibly the Inland Seafood building along with a couple more along Norwell and Atmore.  If I remember the topography here correctly I think this will require some trenching from the NCRR to the other side of N Davidson and the depth of the trench may be awkward (perhaps not deep enough to easily bridge over, too deep to easily walk across). Given the changes that are already occurring in this area I hope they pay attention to maintaining walkability, this project is going to be very disruptive to what will certainly be an emerging part of NoDa.
• Unfunded project #13 is mislabeled as "Amtrak Station at Sugar Creek rd." I think it is mislabeled because it is unlikely ever to be used by Amtrak. However, it will certainly be used for NE corridor commuter rail to Concord, Kannapolis and Salisbury. The project description says the station "will serve as a connection between inter-city passenger rail services and the Blue Line." This makes perfect sense given the track layouts, existing CATS pedestrian bridge and the start of the passenger bypass track (station stops will not foul freight on the main). I am  very glad they are planning for an inter-city / BLE connection, but this station location suggests that a commuter rail stop at 36th st will be unlikely. 
• The wye at Charlotte Junction (west of airport, connects NS main to the NS line to Columbia) will have another leg added to create a turning wye. The project description says that trains at Gateway station will use this wye to turn for return trips (I thought all CLT-Raleigh service was planned to be push-pull). Additional capacity here is important for future Rock Hill - Columbia passenger service as is a third mainline track from Gateway to the wye (listed as partially funded). [Prospective passenger service west or South of Gateway is not mentioned in this report]
• This comment in the description of the unfunded passenger bypass project seems kinda cryptic to me: "new railroad flyover at south end of old NCRR Yard." I can't picture where this flyover would be. 
• It looks like Johnny Harris / River District talked the state into paying for a grade separation of Old Dowd and the NS main (at Walkers Cove)
• Report does say that the MLK extension under the tracks was replaced by a Stonewall extension (listed as "unfunded")
• Future expansion of CSX Intermodal yard (Rozzels Ferry) is mentioned -- I was hoping for the yard to be relocated to Monroe, oh well.

We have seen this map many times before but I like it so I'll post it again:

Inset showing ACRW relocation (labeled #47). Map provided in document was low-resolution.

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by kermit

[11 HouseBZ]

Whenever this ACRW realignment happens, the short section of track it previously used from highland mills to sugar creek should be turned into a bike and walking trail/ green way. It would be a very pleasant tree lined green way from the start. Depending how the new alignment is, maybe have a small park at the end for the emerging NoDa warehouse district?

[dubone]

On 7/8/2018 at 5:44 AM, 11 HouseBZ said:

Whenever this ACRW realignment happens, the short section of track it previously used from highland mills to sugar creek should be turned into a bike and walking trail/ green way. It would be a very pleasant tree lined green way from the start. Depending how the new alignment is, maybe have a small park at the end for the emerging NoDa warehouse district?

It will be.  It is the city plan as an alternative or loop route for the XCLT (Cross Charlotte Trail).    The main route will follow closer to the creek but then when the  ACRW track is connected, then that land would be a rail-to-trail.

 

http://charlottenc.gov/charlottefuture/CIP/Documents/XCLTExecSummary.pdf

Quote

Alignment C, or the ‘South Loop’, which follows the AC&W Spur Line also scored favorably for meeting the project goals of user experience and connectivity. However, land acquisition and the abandonment of the AC&W Spur Line make the south loop a long-term option that can be pursued over time.