CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Spartan]

It won't matter. If you want to take transit to the airport, you'll take the airport circulator tram. It works fine in many other cities, though I agree it would be better if there was a direct link into the airport.

[15895]

53 minutes ago, Spartan said:

It won't matter. If you want to take transit to the airport, you'll take the airport circulator tram. It works fine in many other cities, though I agree it would be better if there was a direct link into the airport.

True. I’ve been to plenty of airports with this set up. Heck, tomorrow I have a flight from BWI and I’m taking a commuter rail there that you have to take a little circulator bus to get to the airport. Very popular to take and no ones really complained. 

 

 

Paris, too, from most places you have to take the little tram from most terminals to the RER. I’m sure there’s many more examples

Edited March 25, 2019 by AirNostrumMAD

[videtur quam contuor]

How many air passengers deplane  or board here -Who do not live here-. I take Lyft to the airport and would continue even with a rail link. I would like for someone to show how many out of town business passengers or out of town tourists use CLT as the destination/origin. Enough to make this worth the cost? Compared to locals boarding.

[CLT>]

55 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

How many air passengers deplane  or board here -Who do not live here-. I take Lyft to the airport and would continue even with a rail link. I would like for someone to show how many out of town business passengers or out of town tourists use CLT as the destination/origin. Enough to make this worth the cost? Compared to locals boarding.

LOTS of people work at the airport as well. I take the Sprinter Bus pretty regularly to CLT and its 80% airport/airline staff.

If you look at the development the airport has planned around the future transit station on Wilkinson you'll see the need for a station with or without the airport traveler traffic.

Plus when uber/lyft go bust you'll still have a way to get to CLT... 

[Desert Power]

Plus, with the plans to extend Concourse A even further, there could be a stop around there too.  That said, it seems like the bus system functions pretty regularly through the parking lots and terminal.  So what advantage do we really get vs frequent service to the Wilkeson stop?

If they did an elevated train like SFO it could be very nice.  Imagine the views of the skyline visitors would get coming in.  

Edited March 25, 2019 by Desert Power
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[CLT2014]

15 hours ago, CLT704 said:

 

Even less riders from the airport when getting to/from it is inconvenient. And how much longer will it add? A few minutes? Assuming there are less stations in Gaston, faster speeds could be achieved to make up for the 3/4 minutes added.

The loop at the airport is 2.2 miles so it would likely add more like 7 - 8 minutes to the commute to Gaston County, especially given the sharp turns into the airport would likely reduce operating speed in that segment to an average of 15 - 20 mph (might be even slower, the turns are pretty sharp). That 7 - 8 minutes could be enough to push people into their cars for commuting. 

Here is BART in the SF Bay Area as a statistical comparison:
-San Francisco Airport Station: 6,302 daily boardings

San Francisco Airport station ranks 29th in boardings out of the 48 stations served by BART. 

At SFO, BART is capturing 11% of people that arrive/depart from the airport (based on 2014 stats) after private vehicles and rental cars. 

It is worth noting that SFO Airport has roughly 3.5 times the amount of passengers that begin/end their trip there compared to Charlotte (where most of our passengers our connecting). 

Edited March 25, 2019 by CLT2014

[kermit]

The world is upside down. Now the SC Governor is talking about how much he wants LRT to Charlotte. (TBC LRT across the state line makes zero sense from a travel time and ridership  perspective)

EDIT: excerpts from the Observer story on this meeting

Quote

McMaster said discussions are underway about light rail connecting to the new Panthers facility, as well as upgrades to the Interstate 77 corridor.

“Light rail between Rock Hill and Charlotte, that would just be terrific,” said McMaster. “It’s a great idea, a great opportunity to showcase a bi-state project.”

He was optimistic about the chances. But such a light rail project would likely cost billions and require cooperation across state lines.

We just have to work through the obstacles. There won’t be many,” said McMaster. “One of them will be money, and I think we can do it.”  [emphasis added]

 

FWIW the MTC meeting minutes have given no indication that "discussions are underway"

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by kermit

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

The world is upside down. Now the SC Governor is talking about how much he wants LRT to Charlotte. (TBC LRT across the state line makes zero sense from a travel time and ridership  perspective)

 

We are at a weird place where the time from Uptown to Gastonia/Rock Hill will be just ridiculous on a light rail, but the costs of doing nothing or delaying keep growing.  Without any realistic chance of heavier rail on some of the lines that would be needed to those communities....what choice do they really have?

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Desert Power said:

We are at a weird place where the time from Uptown to Gastonia/Rock Hill will be just ridiculous on a light rail, but the costs of doing nothing or delaying keep growing.  Without any realistic chance of heavier rail on some of the lines that would be needed to those communities....what choice do they really have?

Yea, I don't disagree with the basic idea here, York County is starting to see how unsustainable their auto-centric development model is.

Unfortunately this enthusiasm for transit  is going to result in either: 1) very low ridership predicted by travel demand models (due to travel time) which will not get federal funding; or 2) an extension that gets built despite the models but has embarrassingly low ridership.  Either outcome will a) distract CATS from higher ridership projects (e.g. a Ballantyne extension which is somewhat incompatible with this 'plan'); or b) lead to a crappy extension which increases maintenance costs and has ridership which is so low that the RWNJs are able to leverage it into solid grassroots movement for no more transit funding.

Its roughly 8 miles from 485 to Fort Mill, it will take at least 40 minutes to travel to CTC (less time than I initially thought) and more than an hour from Rock Hill (15 miles from 485) -- that is a long ride on a light rail vehicle.  Half of the billion-plus dollars spent on this route would buy a SUPER nice double-tracked commuter rail system which could reach all the way to Chester, it would connect to the Blue Line at 485 and the West Line at the airport, could easily be run-through to Concord, Kannapolis and Salisbury and people could actually use the restroom on their hour-plus commute to work.

OK, now that I have typed it, I guess LRT to Fort Mill isn't the worst idea ever.... (but Rock Hill would be an awful idea and it would ultimately make a decent commuter service less likely)

Edited March 25, 2019 by kermit

[11 HouseBZ]

We need these as commuter rail to Mooresville, Gastonia, Salisbury, Monroe, and Rock Hill. Not LRT.

 

P.S.

What did these 5 fingers (of commuter rail) say to Lewis' face? Sshhlaap!

[CLT704]

I've always opposed the idea of commuter rail paralleling LRT but I now think it's not such a stupid idea, especially as the LRT would act more like a local stopping service, I do wonder what the impact on ridership will be on the Blue Line for example.

[SgtCampsalot]

SC towns need commuter rail and a damn LRT of their own. What are the odds of that happening?

[kermit]

40 minutes ago, CLT704 said:

I've always opposed the idea of commuter rail paralleling LRT but I now think it's not such a stupid idea, especially as the LRT would act more like a local stopping service, I do wonder what the impact on ridership will be on the Blue Line for example.

Our possible commuter rail routes interact really nicely with our transit plans. The Possible commuter routes to the West (Kings Mountain), East (Salisbury and Cabarrus), Southeast (Monroe) and South (Rock Hill and Chester) could all have connections at the outer end of our transit network for local stops. While the (somewhat) parallel routes  might cannibalize transit ridership slightly I think the inner and outer Charlotte transit transfer options would end up increasing overall transit ridership and reducing job sprawl.

[orulz]

IMO with commuter rail, NC cities should go for regional rail, with 30 minute midday frequency, or forget it. 15 minute frequency (like Denver) is better, if possible. Charlotte has a pretty dominant CBD but even at that it's not big enough to generate really meaningful ridership out of traditional commuter rail.

And I agree about LRT being the "local" service and commuter the "express". There are lots of great places where the lines cross and can connect, creating a very coherent network.

A Rock Hill line should connect with the Blue Line at 485 and Tyvola, and the Silver Line at Gateway plus one of Morehead, Remount, or Ashley.

A Salisbury line would connect with the Blue Line (after a short, one-station extension) at University City/Mallard Creek, and at one of 36th or Sugar Creek, and the Silver Line at Gateway.

A Monroe line would connect with the Silver Line at Matthews, Pecan, and Gateway, and with the Blue Line at a new station that could hopefully be built at the top of the bridge at 13th.

A Gastonia line could connect with the Silver Line at the Airport, Gateway, and one of Ashley, Remount, or Morehead. It could only connect directly with the blue line if it were routed through Gateway to Monroe or Salisbury (which it should be, of course.)

Lastly, without through running, a Mooresville commuter line would kind of have to stand by itself, only connecting with the Silver Line at Gateway.

[15895]

6 hours ago, CLT704 said:

I've always opposed the idea of commuter rail paralleling LRT but I now think it's not such a stupid idea, especially as the LRT would act more like a local stopping service, I do wonder what the impact on ridership will be on the Blue Line for example.

Dont most commuters parallel LRT/HRT lines? 

[AuLukey]

Anyone else worried that the Silver Line alignment doesn't actually go onto the airport property? I think having to take a people mover to an 'airport' station is a completely idiotic idea. I don't see why the money that will have to be spent on the people mover can't be used to double back the line, like so:

The simple answer is “nope.” A people mover makes 100% sense.

First, CLT would be paying for it, not CATS. So that’s an immediate win. Case closed. However:

Second, a people mover can circulate better. It can start at arrivals/departures, go to the daily deck, (better to walk to hourly and rental,) then to long term for drop off; to Wilkinson for the LRT station, then circle back around to pick up at long term, then daily, then back to arrivals/departures. LRT could never do all that. A people mover serves the needs of the airport much better than a single light rail station at the terminal would. Plus, the idea of the people mover is to help alleviate or eliminate the circulator busses.

Third, there would be fewer factors that could potentially cause delays to the entire Silver line.

Fourth, people movers are generally smaller than the typical LRT tram, so they can fit into tighter spaces; costing less money and land for the airport. It also adds the flexibility of being extended to a hypothetical dedicated international terminal down the road.

Fifth, they will probably be cleaner, or at least more routinely cleaned, as the CLT staff would be responsible rather than CATS.

It works just fine at CDG.

[lit]

The tram at McCarran in Vegas travels 2/3 of a mile in a couple of minutes. The pick-up/drop-off area at CLT is 1 mile from Wilkinson so it would take 3 minutes(?). If the Wilkinson Station looks like the airport on the inside, you won’t even realize it’s not a part of the airport.

 

 

[cltbwimob]

I think if they could somehow make it to where people could check bags and get a boarding pass at the airport rail station prior to boarding the tram, and make it a little more convenient for patrons using the rail line, I think there would be significant incentive to use the light rail-tram combo.  Don’t know how they could make that happen but I’m sure it can be done.

If they could build a security checkpoint at the airport rail station (for people traveling by light rail only so that not just anyone could walk up go through security and board the tram) and make the logistics of that work, that would be an added bonus that I think would really incentivize people to use transit, because I think lines there wouldn’t be nearly as long as they are in the terminal.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

54 minutes ago, lit said:

The tram at McCarran in Vegas travels 2/3 of a mile in a couple of minutes. The pick-up/drop-off area at CLT is 1 mile from Wilkinson so it would take 3 minutes(?). If the Wilkinson Station looks like the airport on the inside, you won’t even realize it’s not a part of the airport.

 

 

Off topic, but the strip is so damn close to the airport there, the taxi lobby but have kept them for connecting this train to the strip.

 

[CLT2014]

2 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

I think if they could somehow make it to where people could check bags and get a boarding pass at the airport rail station prior to boarding the tram, and make it a little more convenient for patrons using the rail line, I think there would be significant incentive to use the light rail-tram combo.  Don’t know how they could make that happen but I’m sure it can be done.

If they could build a security checkpoint at the airport rail station (for people traveling by light rail only so that not just anyone could walk up go through security and board the tram) and make the logistics of that work, that would be an added bonus that I think would really incentivize people to use transit, because I think lines there wouldn’t be nearly as long as they are in the terminal.

This would work well if the airlines in the United States could come to an agreement to share the check-in process and make bag policies the same. However, with check-in / bag drop currently managed by each individual airline nationwide, my guess is all of the smaller airlines would push back on having to manage separate staff at the light rail station (and maybe refuse to open a desk there). 

If you think of Southwest Airlines as an example, they only have around 10 flights per day here. Many of the agents working check-in / bag drop, also switch over to being the gate agents to help with boarding. If you added an additional check-in desk at the light rail, they would have to increase staffing by 2 people just to accommodate light rail customers for only 10 flights per day. With Southwest having about 1,800 passengers depart CLT per day, assuming a generous 10% took light rail, they would be managing a separate check-in desk for just 180 passengers (or roughly only 11 people per hour in a 16 hour day). 

Frontier, Lufthansa, United, Spirit, Jet Blue, etc.... would all be in similar situations of having to add employees (one for preferred check-in and one for regular economy). Really only American Airlines and Delta  would  have enough demand to justify a desk at the light rail, meaning you'd have to sort customers on separate trams ("Oh you checked in on American, clear security and board this secure tram." "Oh you checked in on Frontier, board this separate tram to take to the regular terminal to check-in.")

Edited March 27, 2019 by CLT2014

[kermit]

^ "Back in the day" American would certainly have had an uptown office where you could check bags up to a couple hours before your flight.

[CLT2014]

2 minutes ago, kermit said:

^ "Back in the day" American would certainly have had an uptown office where you could check bags up to a couple hours before your flight.

Those must have been nice times. I vaguely remember when airlines had lots of physical offices selling tickets across the country too. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by CLT2014

[CLT>]

Jerry Orr wanted to have URT 'pods' like at Heathrow to connect the terminal to the hotel and rail station, and possibly other airport development. Those are very fun to use at Heathrow, but I believe that 2 stop network is the largest scale implementation of the system.

 

 

[KJHburg]

10 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Those must have been nice times. I vaguely remember when airlines had lots of physical offices selling tickets across the country too. 

Piedmont Airlines had an ticket office in the Charlotte Plaza how do I know I used it! 

[kermit]

An important illustration of why its much better to build transit sooner rather than later comes from the now officially dead DOLRT project:

DOLRT estimated cost share:

Durham County: $1 billion (for around 16 miles of LRT). Durham was also on the hook for all cost overruns
State share: $190 million

CLT Blue Line and BLE:

CATS share: $400 million (ish) (for around 19 miles of LRT)
State share: $350 million (ish)

Charlotte certainly had big advantages over the Triangle with a large amount of existing ROW and a MUCH larger contribution from the state — the original Blue Line was a bargain (but there was aton of beotching about costs). But its important not to underestimate escalations in construction costs, the increasing difficultly of obtaining ROW in denser environments and moodiness of funding partners (like the state of NC)

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article228378724.html

Edited March 28, 2019 by kermit