CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

^40X used to serve Eastland before the Albemarle/Harris/Lawyers park and ride. Now, 40X and 46X head directly out Albemarle Rd from the Independence busway.

[Guest]

 Why are the bus stops on virtually all routes every two blocks?  Do we not expect people to walk a bit before they take public transit?

Its like that up here in NYC too, its VERY annoying. 

[teeg]

^ gotcha.  That would have gone from Eastland Mall down Albemarle, then Independence?  I just do not remember ever seeing an express bus running along Central in Plaza Midwood.  

[tozmervo]

I believe San Francisco's MUNI has been working the past 4-5 years to consolidate bus stops to enhance their services. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/us/san-francisco-buses-are-slow-but-just-try-eliminating-a-stop.html?pagewanted=all

 

I think "too many stops" is an exception on CATS bus lines rather than the rule. There are some areas where they could certainly be spaced a bit more, but it's mostly not the extreme every-single-block stopping that some cities deal with. 

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/12/08/5371223/carolyn-flowers-leaving-cats-for.html

 

As posted earlier, Flowers leaving makes me happy.  It's not that I specifically think she has done a bad job, and obviously was in power when we received a number of mass transit grants.   I just have a general lack of happiness with CATS leadership and vision in the last few years.  

[Wonkyarm]

Hello! I've been lurking for a few months this discussion prompted me to make an account. I took CATS as my primary form of transportation from about 2009 to earlier this year, so I feel I can speak pretty confidently about it. The bus stops really are that close together, there's pretty much a stop on every block... The only major line where that's an exception would be the Providence Road bus. I guess because ridership is low there. That being said, I don't think there is much of an alternative to frequent stops when you look at how spread apart our main thoroughfares are. Most people don't live directly off of a larger street with a bus line on it, so they already have a pretty sizeable walk just to get to a street serviced by bus. If you took away the frequent stops, it would just add to that walk and would make the system even less usable than it already is. On top of that, Charlotte, just isn't that walkable! The sidewalks(if even there) are generally narrow and pushed against the road where cars are driving 50 mph right next to you. Not exactly the most glamorous or safe experience. All the stops suck because they make the rides take longer, but it would render the transit system less practical to the average commuter if taken out. I love Charlotte, but my main gripe is definitely how spread out our main corridors are, and how far between the connecting streets are.... It makes the city unwalkable, bottlenecks traffic and makes transit much more difficult IMHO.

[southslider]

^ gotcha. That would have gone from Eastland Mall down Albemarle, then Independence? I just do not remember ever seeing an express bus running along Central in Plaza Midwood.

Right, the 40X used to deviate off Albemarle Rd to serve Eastland via a short piece of Sharon Amity, not travel Central Ave through Plaza-Midwood.

[15895]

I didn't want to start a new thread on such a narrow topic, but with fuel prices dropping 40% and after CATS hiked the transit fare,I wonder how this effects their financials.

Even if these low gas prices last a year and only rose by 25%, I wonder the effect.

My hope is that they get card swipers on the bus soon. Or cards you can load money on and swipe each time.

Edited December 13, 2014 by AirNostrumMAD

[pgsinger]

^ what express route served Central Ave?  

 

A few years ago there was a 39x (or it may have been the 9x).  Not sure where it started but it stopped at Arnold, the Morningside, the, Plaza, Pecan, then straight into the trans center.  It was dropped a few years ago during the height (low?) of the recession.

 

I believe San Francisco's MUNI has been working the past 4-5 years to consolidate bus stops to enhance their services. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/us/san-francisco-buses-are-slow-but-just-try-eliminating-a-stop.html?pagewanted=all

 

I think "too many stops" is an exception on CATS bus lines rather than the rule. There are some areas where they could certainly be spaced a bit more, but it's mostly not the extreme every-single-block stopping that some cities deal with. 

 

My primary experience is that this is the rule not the exception, though I have very little experience admittedly. I'd also disagree with Wonkyarm.  Again, going back to the 9 and 39 on Central, you frequently see these buses stopped together at the same stop.  Why not make certain stops for the 9 and others for the 39.  The you avoid watching the buses stop repeatedly together all the way down Central (literally it happens too much to be encouraging)?  Also, there is a bus that runs down Mecklenburg to Belvedere and right through the heart of PM.  That is only a few blocks from the 9 and the 39.  Finally, I actually think the frequent stops make the CATS system unusable.  It may seem counter intuitive, but requiring riders to walk two more blocks would make the rides quicker and more predictable.  This would attract more people like me to ride the bus.  Not to be callous, but the people that truly have to ride the bus, will walk another 2 blocks.

 

That said, Charlotte does need serious improvements in its walkable infrastructure.  Central Avenue is a pretty miserable walk on both sides of the street.  Hopefully infill will improve this.

[15895]

I seem to remember reading that CATS wasn't going to really benefit from cheaper fuel (not sure how much I believe of that). I was wondering if after the fare increases and sustained lower fuel cost, is it possible this could generate a good amount of revenue to start planning any projects?

Not sure it would help as much as The economy getting better and putting less stress on the 1/2 sales tax.

Let's assume CATS does decide to take on another major project. Does anyone think CATS tries to tackle the Gold Line?

[birky]

Wasn't sure where to put this:

 

Public Transportation Shapes Where Millennials Decide to Live

[southslider]

^Not beyond Phase 2 without additional funding

[kermit]

Let's assume CATS does decide to take on another major project. Does anyone think CATS tries to tackle the Gold Line?

 

I suspect that any new project will have to connect one of the outlying towns (Huntersville or Matthews) in order to politically justify the county-wide sales tax. Since the Red Line has essentially been completely killed by Norfolk Southern (see the end of the FTA quarterly report that Toz linked to a couple weeks ago) the next project funded by CATS will almost certainly be in the SE / Independence corridor.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see substantial long-term plan revisions which might feature BRT light in the HOT lanes from the Lake as a substitute for the Red Line.

Edited February 9, 2015 by kermit

[dubone]

We don't need to talk about 'what is next' any time soon.  

 

CATS has years to go yet focusing on the Blue Line extension, capacity expansion, and now actually building Phase II of the streetcar.   Those are still 'what is next'.

 

Strategically, all the other lines (N, SE, and W) have major problems where critical assumptions during the long term planning process in the 1990s have now proven to be show stoppers.  It is pointless guessing which one will be next because they will all need either significant increases in budget or else major revision of the alignment or technology.   

 

 

 

The showstoppers are relatively insurmountable for the other 3 and a full rethinking from scratch is exactly what is needed, but Flowers as CEO was focused less on long term planning and more on immediate needs.  I hope the new CEO is a strategic leader and helps the MTC to draft a totally new plan for the remaining corridors.    Otherwise, expect to just have buses on HOT lanes. 

[Spartan]

It seems to me that the next step for CATS should be to update the 2030 Transit Plan and use that as the venue to re-think and re-prioritize the corridors as it relates to funding.

[southslider]

^The new Silver Line Alternatives Analysis should help inform any System Plan Update.

[dubone]

Can you elaborate on this?

 

^The new Silver Line Alternatives Analysis should help inform any System Plan Update.

 

 

There is one search result for this as a term, and obviously it has always seemed like a clear next step for this corridor, but why is there no information on it, is this a brand-brand new effort?  

 

This is a helpful recap of the timeline and where we were (in 2012) on the silver line.

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/focusareas/transportation/documents/9.24.12%20tap%20committee%20agenda%20package.pdf

 

This is the only real mention I see of "Silver Line Alternatives Analysis":

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/CityCouncil/Council%20Briefings/2014%20policy%20issues.pdf

 

There is otherwise a dearth of info on it all, and I didn't even know they were doing an alternatives analysis, and I have been actively searching for it.

[Third Strike]

Here's some info on the Silver Line Alternative Analysis:

 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/Documents/FTA%20Quarterly-150123.pdf

Page 129

 

Looks like there is a project kickoff in three days.

[cltbwimob]

Here's some info on the Silver Line Alternative Analysis:

 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/Documents/FTA%20Quarterly-150123.pdf

Page 129

 

Looks like there is a project kickoff in three days.

Interesting.  Good find.

[dubone]

There we go.   Thanks for finding that.  It shouldn't be so hard to find, but makes sense, since it is just getting underway.

[seth0423]

Does anyone think the FRA's new rules with DMUs and Freight lines will change any of this? I could see DMU service along the o-line to morresville, out to Matthews, and even on the NCRR to Kannapolis

[kermit]

^ I don't see how it could. A single unit DMU blocks freight to the same degree that a 8 car HEP consist would. In addition, DMUs require the same sort of track improvements that multi-unit trains would. The only cost savings I see is in the vehicle cost, and that is a small portion of our heavy rail projects.

 

I could potentially see DMUs providing fill in commuter service to Harrisburg, Concord and Kannapolis, but NCDOT has done such a good job with their refurbed rolling stock that I don't see any compelling reason to switch.

[seth0423]

 

I could potentially see DMUs providing fill in commuter service to Harrisburg, Concord and Kannapolis, but NCDOT has done such a good job with their refurbed rolling stock that I don't see any compelling reason to switch.

 

I can see one. NCDOT only serves Charlotte and Kannapolis, with the plans to add Harrisburg. You would need something to serve inbetween.

[ChessieCat]

Does anyone think the FRA's new rules with DMUs and Freight lines will change any of this? I could see DMU service along the o-line to morresville, out to Matthews, and even on the NCRR to Kannapolis

 

^ I don't see how it could. A single unit DMU blocks freight to the same degree that a 8 car HEP consist would. In addition, DMUs require the same sort of track improvements that multi-unit trains would. The only cost savings I see is in the vehicle cost, and that is a small portion of our heavy rail projects.

 

I could potentially see DMUs providing fill in commuter service to Harrisburg, Concord and Kannapolis, but NCDOT has done such a good job with their refurbed rolling stock that I don't see any compelling reason to switch.

 

The last stretch of the NCRR is currently getting double-tracked between Concord and Charlotte Yard which would help commuter service up to Kannapolis as kermit said.  But the current Amshack has no connection to the Blue Line so unless they move the station to the other side of the yard, it's a moot point.

 

Unfortunately the CSX line out to Matthews and the O-line up to Mooresville are single-track and the railroads aren't keen on any possible service disruption nor would they pay for any double-tracking themselves.

[seth0423]

The last stretch of the NCRR is currently getting double-tracked between Concord and Charlotte Yard which would help commuter service up to Kannapolis as kermit said.  But the current Amshack has no connection to the Blue Line so unless they move the station to the other side of the yard, it's a moot point.

 

Unfortunately the CSX line out to Matthews and the O-line up to Mooresville are single-track and the railroads aren't keen on any possible service disruption nor would they pay for any double-tracking themselves.

 

Gateway would have a link via the streetcar, and isn't the plan for the proposed Red Line to build an all new track alongside NS right of way?