CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

All sounds like land banking, not construction.

[MilZ]

All sounds like land banking, not construction.

All traffic lights were replaced (some decorative) and wires on Main Street were buried. Certain intersections installed holographic lights that try to present green lights only to people on the tracks, and the phases were changed to usher all traffic off Main Street and then Broad Street independently (which run parallel). They also established the wedge spaced, parcel leading into the main stroll district approaching the old train depot (currently an art gallery), as a pocket park with several trees, benches, and a weaving sidewalk. There was some land banking going on, as I recall a mixed-use project called 100 Church (with a couple floors of underground parking) and turning Burlington Mills into a mixed-use development. Then again, I was a junior in high school in 05-06 when all this was happening but I remember it seeming like a big deal at the time.

[southslider]

I was referring to Gateway Station, not Mooresville

[kermit]

Pretty great article over at Plan Charlotte about a public health official (formerly of the CDC) talking about public health and sprawl at UNCC Center city last week. It was mostly an interesting rehash of the standard 'sprawl is making us fat' discussion however a couple of his observations caught my eye:

 

 

And he thinks cost estimates for mass transit projects should factor in the health benefits that research has found related to the daily walk to and from transit stops.

 

and

 

 

• During the 20^th century, the average U.S. lifespan increased by 30 years. Of those 30 more years of life, only 5 came from advances in medical care; the other 25 came from immunizations and from “infrastructure” – safer water supplies, better food, safer cars, etc.

 

Build more transit now, damnit!

[tozmervo]

Highlights from the March MTC meeting summary:

 

• CATS is pursuing funding for a pedestrian bridge to Sugar Creek station to eliminate the circuitous 1/2 mile pedestrian route that we've been critical of
• CATS is also trying to fund ped bridges to JW Clay & UCB stations from their respective parking decks
• A real-time app "will be rolled out soon" (somewhat notable: the POS old cats app for android doesn't appear to be available anymore)
• Gateway station development is being divided up so the state is not running the entire show. The city will now take the lead on building development and P3 funding, the state will work on the rail line aspect

[seth0423]

I'm still sold on dubone's idea about puting the station at the intersection of the CSX and NS Railroads. It would sure be a whole lot cheaper. I personally think if CATS could maybe hire a window cleaner, we could have one transit hub, in that neighborhood. With Gateway's plan, you have to walk a good 4-5 blocks on Trade. Now, if the Streetcar could somehow become a no-fare zone this would work great.

 

The out of the loop station is the better option because #1, you aren't interfering with NS traffic on their mainline at all. The only problem with both of them, is the grade separation between the two. We all know that ADM is going to be stubborn about leaving their facility, and it won't happen anytime soon.

 

Gateway seems to be on the right track, and I think that offically splitting the tasks is a great decision on the government's part. Now we know who to blame

[Third Strike]

^I personally like the idea of placing the new station near the existing Amtrak station, with a pedestrian bridge connecting to the 25th Street Station. They could also reroute the Red Line to go south of Atando Junction, completely eliminating the problem of the CSX/NS grade separation. Archiham04's rendering in the Gateway Station topic is exactly how I would like the station to look (doesn't have to look that futuristic, but you get the idea):

 

 

[seth0423]

What about something as grand as this? I know, too many platforms for charlotte, but this is in Berlin. It has a metro area roughly 2.5 times the size of ours, but ours is twice as dense. Charlotte, while it may not be the largest city in the Southeast, could become an important hub for intercity rail, as is Berlin.

 

The station itself has two levels of platforms, one above ground, and one below. Charlotte could have 3, one below ground for access to NS mainline (would require tons of money), one at ground level for LYNX services and CATS buses, and one above ground for trains to wilmington and Monroe. I personally believe it is one of the nicest looking stations in the world.

 

Now, if all the plans go through, we could have rail service from Charlotte along 5 routes.

Charlotte --> Raleigh (and North East)

Charlotte --> Atlanta (and Midwest)

Charlotte --> Asheville (via Salisbury)

Charlotte --> Columbia (And FL)

Charlotte --> Wilmington

 

And some potential Commuter lines:

Charlotte --> Lake Norman/Morresville (If upgraded enough, Asheville bound trains could run on this line)

Charlotte --> Salisbury (NCRR)

Charlotte --> Gastonia

Charlotte --> Monroe

Charlotte --> Rock hill (stretching it?)

 

My point is, we need something that won't look like a shed, and maybe something a little bit more than a bridge.

[DMann]

I am on board for that!  What would Bill James say about it?

[seth0423]

Good question, the only thing i'm concerned with about the whole thing is the cost...

[Papaner88]

What about something as grand as this? I know, too many platforms for charlotte, but this is in Berlin. It has a metro area roughly 2.5 times the size of ours, but ours is twice as dense. Charlotte, while it may not be the largest city in the Southeast, could become an important hub for intercity rail, as is Berlin.

 

The station itself has two levels of platforms, one above ground, and one below. Charlotte could have 3, one below ground for access to NS mainline (would require tons of money), one at ground level for LYNX services and CATS buses, and one above ground for trains to wilmington and Monroe. I personally believe it is one of the nicest looking stations in the world.

 

Now, if all the plans go through, we could have rail service from Charlotte along 5 routes.

Charlotte --> Raleigh (and North East)

Charlotte --> Atlanta (and Midwest)

Charlotte --> Asheville (via Salisbury)

Charlotte --> Columbia (And FL)

Charlotte --> Wilmington

 

And some potential Commuter lines:

Charlotte --> Lake Norman/Morresville (If upgraded enough, Asheville bound trains could run on this line)

Charlotte --> Salisbury (NCRR)

Charlotte --> Gastonia

Charlotte --> Monroe

Charlotte --> Rock hill (stretching it?)

 

My point is, we need something that won't look like a shed, and maybe something a little bit more than a bridge.

There is no better use of a rainy Saturday am than lurking the UP forums and daydreaming about weekend train trips to ILM via a rail hub like that. Le sigh.

[Third Strike]

Since we're on the topic of commuter lines, why wasn't a Concord/Kannapolis/Salisbury commuter line not considered before the Red Line? Not only is that stretch owned by the NCRR, but the line will also be double tracked. Is it because of the high amount of rail traffic between Norfolk Southern and the Amtrak lines?

[southslider]

North Meck Towns are in Mecklenburg County, while Concord-Kannapolis are other counties. The CATS System Plan has a huge financial bias of using Mecklenburg County's half-cent sales tax as it primary local funding source.

[Third Strike]

Ah, I see, thanks. It does seem like it would be "cheaper" for a commuter train in that corridor, since the infrastructure is there. Most of the cost would likely be for funding the new trains, and a few new stations at places in between Charlotte/Kannapolis/Salisbury like Landis, China Grove, Concord, and Harrisburg, and maybe a couple of stations inside Charlotte, like one in University City, and a shared station with the Blue Line's Old Concord Rd Station. Just my armchair two cent.

[seth0423]

It never wasn't considered. I could have sworn an organization actually studied the possibility... but i can't seem to find it anywhere. The idea has come up a couple of times, but the main difference between us and Lake Norman is the fact we have 10 lanes to get into Charlotte. We don't need a fixing of our transit, we are already extremely accessible. Lake Norman on the other hand, all you hear is traffic on 77 near Huntersville.

 

Another idea, set up the city like it's Chicago. CATS could have 3 separate branches under it: Commuter Rail/ Express buses, Buses, and Local rail/ streetcar. RTA in Chicago manages Metra, All of CTA, and PACE (regional Buses). This could draw funding from other counties, knowing their money will go to something that will benefit them. If we as residents know our money is going right back into something for our local economy, that's better than paying for something that is helping a different county.

Edited April 28, 2015 by seth0423

[dcharlotte]

I do think the new managed lanes will help with putting people into transit or shared vehicles. Commute from the lake via bus to points downtown on the managed lanes will be very quick in comparison to now when the bus has to wait to get to 485 and the HOV lane.

[seth0423]

Hey guys, good news. In the FY2016 USDOT budget, guess what is under the list of recommeneded grants for start up project? CityLYNX gold line phase 2 could be receiving $75,000,000. Good news?

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/FY2016-DOT-BudgetHighlights-508.pdf

If you want to check it out

[Guest]

I'm worried about these giant grants from the Feds. First, transit is better than highways but this grant promotes the same large scale, top down planning that brought us those highways in the first place. Second, not only are we going to continue to pay for the highways that we are still expanding, but now we're going to pay for expensive light rail as well. I hope the engineers and planners know what they are doing.

[birky]

but now we're going to pay for expensive light rail as well.

 

It always seems kind of silly to see arguments against paying for mass transit, especially the argument that it's expensive.  All transit is expensive and it doesn't pay for itself.  Highways don't explicitly pay for themselves.  They encourage economic development, with the goal being that you see revenue in other sectors, like property and sales taxes.  I always try to think of it like the R&D portion of a corporation. R&D doesn't pay for it's own costs; but you're not going to abandon R&D because they help grow profits in other areas.  People need to take more of a holistic view when it comes to public investment.

 

Secondly, even though the federal government is paying a portion of the start up costs, long term costs will still be provided locally.  That's the great thing about federal public investment; it helps overcome the huge construction costs that most states and cities can't overcome on their own.

[kermit]

but now we're going to pay for expensive light rail as well.

There has been a large volume of research which documents the public health costs of sprawl (in short, people who live in non-walkable environments are fatter and thus less healthy). The corollary of this work is that the public health benefits of walkability are substantial. If we included the positive externalities of transit in our cost calculations for rail transit it would certainly look cheap. If we included the negative externalities of road construction (health, air quality, carbon costs, noise, military cost of maintaining fuel supply, maintenance, enforcement etc.) it would certainly be prohibitively expensive.

Road construction is bankrupting the country. Cities that don't build rail transit (or otherwise cultivate walkability) are going to become the Detroits of the next decade. (Raleigh, Nashville and San Antonio may be leading the way)

Edited May 6, 2015 by kermit

[Third Strike]

Road construction is bankrupting the country. Cities that don't build rail transit (or otherwise cultivate walkability) are going to become the Detroits of the next decade. (Raleigh, Nashville and San Antonio may be leading the way)

 

Eh, I agree with pretty much everything you said, except for the Detroit comment. It was definitely foolish of Detroit to neglect building a real mass transit system, and there is no doubt that it has had an impact on their infrastructure and finances, but I could never see any of those three cites ever ending up like Detroit, at least within the near future. Detroit's downfall is contributed to the deindustrialization of the late 20th century. For a place like Raleigh to ever see a decline even close to that of Detroit, the various bio-tech related companies, and even the RTP as a whole, would have to leave the Triangle en masse. Similar situation to Charlotte and banks. Even in such an unlikely scenario, I still don't see any major sunbelt city becoming like Detroit.

[kermit]

yea, fair enough. I did get carried away.

That said, I don't think there is any way to avoid sprawl impacting job growth. I don't think Raleigh has a prayer of continuing to grow 3% per year (or even 1%) in the absence of real transit. When you add in the teapublican view of (not) funding higher ed and the Triangle may be about to face its lowest growth rates since the 1950s. That's not Detroit, but its certainly not the status quo either.

Edited May 7, 2015 by kermit

[Third Strike]

What's interesting is, the last time I checked, Durham and Orange counties are closer to building a light rail line, than Wake is. Nonetheless, Raleigh, and the remainder of NC, won't see any potential funding for new lines until sometime past the 2020s. State funding for mass transit has dried up under the current administration, and it will be very difficult for any city to create any new lines, outside of Charlotte slowly building the Gold Line, through grants and city monies. That sucks, since I would love to see the Triangle's mass transit system come to life. It would look good for NC if both of its major metros had mass transit rail, plus high speed rail. 

[dcharlotte]

I will say that cities that do not continue to invest in their core throughout this next economic growth cycle will be struggling for the foreseeable future. Atlanta's downtown is still a joke with the center of the region being more Buckhead or Sandy Springs these days than Downtown. Other cities that have strong regional fragmentation and no true draw to downtown will struggle to create transit and drive transit ridership. Atlanta is the case study for southeastern cities that you can't build your way out of congestion and multi-core cities are impossible to plan for transit because each node competes for their own transit priorities.

[mjcatl2]

 

I will say that cities that do not continue to invest in their core throughout this next economic growth cycle will be struggling for the foreseeable future. Atlanta's downtown is still a joke with the center of the region being more Buckhead or Sandy Springs these days than Downtown. Other cities that have strong regional fragmentation and no true draw to downtown will struggle to create transit and drive transit ridership. Atlanta is the case study for southeastern cities that you can't build your way out of congestion and multi-core cities are impossible to plan for transit because each node competes for their own transit priorities.

 

I totaly agree. People can't truly appreciate what a mess Atlanta is. It's great on paper, but not reality. I've lived in Atlanta for some time. I hope to move in out in the next year or so. I might be stuck here much longer, but hoping to leave. I work in Perimeter which is the absolute worst of everything in Atlanta. A train wreck.

 

I've been trying to keep up with Charlotte news because that's the best option for us to move to. I have to admit that I'm concerned that Charlotte isn't doing enough to avoid Atlanta's fate, but at least your center of business is still in the core and hopefully your rail can expand.

 

I also just read where the state gave a sweetheart deal to a private company for toll lanes and that in that deal, the state can't expand non toll lanes or do anything else on I77 for 50 years.

 

That's mind blowing.