CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Norm2]

Chicago has some of their train lines run directly in the middle of their expressways. Grated though, the expressways in those sections are elevated, so you can walk directly from the train platform down to the street with no need to cross over the freeway.

Edited September 26, 2008 by norm21499

[Neo]

Chicago has some of their train lines run directly in the middle of their expressways. Grated though, the expressways in those sections are elevated, so you can walk directly from the train platform down to the street with no need to cross over the freeway.

This is not correct, there are many stations where you must cross the freeway with a pedestrian bridge or vehicular bridge to reach the train stations in the middle of the expressway. The Jefferson Park Blue Line station is an example of this.

[dubone]

The plan for Independence is obviously to turn it into as much of a limited-access freeway as possible. In my view, if they are going to try to spur mixed use transit oriented neighborhoods on those parcels of dying strip centers, they are going to need to build a parallel street on the back sides of those parcels and start getting projects to face that direction rather than toward the freeway. I just cannot imagine the kind of development they want to spur with transit to grow on the parcels with people needing to rush on and off of the expressway.

[monsoon]

Denver comes to mind as a city that has a LRT line running in an interstate ROW.....does anyone know if land-use has improved along this route?

I thought that was just a proposal?

[tozmervo]

I think atlrvr might be referring to T-REX? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_T-RE...tion_EXpansion)

[monsoon]

I might be wrong, but the part of that project which will run in the interstate is called the "I-225 Corridor". I don't think it has been approved yet. Maybe there is some other part that does run in the interstate medium?

I don't know about light rail, but I would say the best example of rail running on an Interstate ROW is the DC Metro. One of the lines heads out on one of the interstates with the stations located on bridge like structures over the highway. There is access to the station on both sides of the interstate and I believe all of them have rather large park and ride lots. (which cost money to use). Last time I rode down this line I did notice there were some significant condo/apartment building within walking distance of some of these places.

In regards to doing the same thing in Charlotte, I would say it is iffy. The Metro is a full fledged heavy rail system that has a daily ridership of around 800K which far far exceeds anything planed for Lynx in the foreseeable future. The investment might be justified there, but I am not sure about here.

[ChiefJoJo]

To dubone's comments, that is exactly what the city is looking at now in their LU Study of the corridor... attempting to create a plan that will orient those parcels away from the expressway back towards the adjoining neighborhoods... which gets more at the heart of what is inhibiting redevelopment (along with uncertainty of the corridor). I think rapid transit can assist in this process by creating a new market for TOD, but I would maintain that the market will still be limited by the proximity of the expressway (unlike the blue line), even if the alignment is built to one side of the road (the recommended practice, instead of the median). FYI, Portland has some of their LRT network along the side of freeways and is expanding their LRT along I-205. Note that no lines run in the median.

On HSR, I posted this in the NC rail topic, but CA has a major funding measure on the ballot this fall to fund and build the first leg of electrified HSR there. Like the SE line, it may make sense from an energy strategy standpoint and I would love to see it happen, but I think the additional cost of adding overhead cantenary for 170 miles of track could be cost prohibitive unless there is a scheme or policy (climate bill?) that provides cash or incentives for clean energy infrastructure. The good thing about SEHSR is that is is widely viewed as being one of the top potential HSR lines in the nation since it would connect with the northeast corridor (DC, Bal, Philly, NY, Bos)

For better or worse, the upcoming election will likely have a great impact on the viability of some of these infrastructure projects.

[tozmervo]

To dubone's comments, that is exactly what the city is looking at now in their LU Study of the corridor... attempting to create a plan that will orient those parcels away from the expressway back towards the adjoining neighborhoods... which gets more at the heart of what is inhibiting redevelopment (along with uncertainty of the corridor).

That's a rather intriguing notion, "inverting" the Independence corridor so that 74 is the back of those parcels, not the front. It doesn't really do anything to re-knit those neighborhoods that have been split in twain, but I haven't really seen a proposal that does.

[Spartan]

It also says that the new enhanced airport bus service will be called Sprinter

The O backs up the Sprinter name. Posted to the UP topic: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/Branding....html&st=20

Sprinter is definitely the name/brand they are going to use.

[ChiefJoJo]

That's a rather intriguing notion, "inverting" the Independence corridor so that 74 is the back of those parcels, not the front. It doesn't really do anything to re-knit those neighborhoods that have been split in twain, but I haven't really seen a proposal that does.

Unfortunately, we may never see a day in our lifetimes where the mistakes of the past like 277, etc, are "fixed." At least CATS rapid transit project, whatever it ends up being, will have to provide some new pedestrian connections to the stations, although most of the stations, IIRC, are near existing or future grade separations, such that the sidewalks will simply be provided along the existing/new overpasses instead of a stand-alone walkway/bikeway. If there are any additional connections across Independence, they'd likely be of the bikeway/pedstrian only variety.

[monsoon]

While there has been a huge amount of election news concerning the Presidential and statewide elections, we forget that closer to home there is an election to pick the at large county commissioners. The reason that I post this here is those commissioners are the ones who ultimately control the transit tax, and have the power to help or hinder transit projects given their unique abilities granted to county governments in this state. So in terms of what happens with the 2030 plan, the Chair of the county commission as well as the makeup of the commission can make or break a project depending upon their support.

I have not seen much in the local press about where the ones running for the county commission stand on the issues of train funding but this article came out in the Huntersville paper this week that does cover it. You have to read through it a bit, but it's worth a read if you are interested in the candidates position in regards to future rail plans in this county.

[tozmervo]

^ On the same note, WFAE had a brief interview with Libertarian Gubernatorial candidate Micheal Munger today. Needless to say, he takes the Cato Institute view of public transit and suggested that CLT would have been better off spending the money on taxis to get people to and from work.

[Spartan]

I couldn't decide whether to laugh at that guy or be scared of what he's suggesting. I like a lot of libertarian principles, but that was pretty ridiculous. The fact that he has some report from Duke University does not give him any more credibility in my eyes. I'm glad you mentioned it though, because I remembered that I wanted to look up that report.

Its scary how many things are done (or even proposed) in this country because of one report.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I couldn't decide whether to laugh at that guy or be scared of what he's suggesting. I like a lot of libertarian principles, but that was pretty ridiculous. The fact that he has some report from Duke University does not give him any more credibility in my eyes. I'm glad you mentioned it though, because I remembered that I wanted to look up that report.

Its scary how many things are done (or even proposed) in this country because of one report.

Report from Duke?

He is chair of the Economics program at Duke and a member of the Political Science, Economics, and Public Policy departments.

He probably knows more than anyone here.

Edited October 4, 2008 by moonshield

[New Name]

From "O" today (I hope to GOD that this is the "O" being misinformed and reporting only part of the whole of possibilities - because everyone in the neighborhood, including everyone of our voting and active Association members would be amazed to hear this is the final verdict):

"[url=http://www.charlotteobserver.com/100/story/233087.html]The station at NoDa

[Spartan]

Report from Duke?

He is chair of the Economics program at Duke and a member of the Political Science, Economics, and Public Policy departments.

He probably knows more than anyone here.

He mentioned a report. Maybe it was that he wrote it or something. I don't recall as I was getting ready for work at the time. Perhaps its merely hyperbole to make a point, but his suggestion or notion of using taxis for everyone was ludicrous.

[monsoon]

From "O" today (I hope to GOD that this is the "O" being misinformed and reporting only part of the whole of possibilities - because everyone in the neighborhood, including everyone of our voting and active Association members would be amazed to hear this is the final verdict):.....

I said almost 2 years ago this would be a $1 Billion project. Given where they are now, I am going to say they will be lucky to build it for even this amount. CATS is incredibly bad at getting cost projections correct and they consistently under project them.

.....

IMO, CATS is in a tough position. If they fail to secure funds for the NE line from the feds then they are left with a plan that doesn't build anything for quite some time except for the North line. Tober has given them an all or nothing plan because CATS does not have a contingency for what might happen if the feds turn down the request to build what will be a $billion line to UNCC. Putting the focus back on an effective North line will go a ways to countering that scenario......

[southslider]

NCRR, not CATS, wants to reserve ROW on the NoDa side for future HSR. Similarly, NCRR, not CATS, wants to eliminate the grade-crossing of 36th, and Craighead for that matter too. It's for these reasons that CATS is left with little choice but to build on the "Tryon side" of the RR-ROW, and that CDOT is then planning a grade-separation of 36th similar to NCRR-supported plans for Sugar Creek Road.

[Spartan]

I wish they would lower the tracks rather than the road. A tunnel in that area would be devastating. A bridge can be made to look much more attractive and less "scary" for pedestrians.

[atlrvr]

^ I agree Spartan. Though NoDa is great, I can't think of too many pedestrians willing to walk through a tunnel of the length required in that part of town.

How about a vehicle tunnel and "artsy" pedestrian only bridge.

[ChiefJoJo]

CATS hand is a bit forced here. They have to accomodate the HSR tracks and NS freight tracks in addition to the new LRT tracks. That's 6 very active parallel tracks at likely the most active rail corridor in NC, and I can only imagine that the cost of building the rail over the 36th St is at least 4-5x more expensive, considering they would have to raise the grade of the HSR and freight tracks probably 15 ft with a very lengthy ~1% approach grade on both sides... and generally speaking, messing around with freight rail tracks is something to avoid if at all possible. As it is, they would only have to bury 36th St down for maybe 80-100 ft... WAY cheaper, and when it's already $900M, every penny counts. Better to have LRT and a tunnel than no project at all.

I agree that a tunnel probably won't be the most pedestrian-friendly experience, but you can do a lot with lighting (LEDs?) and perhaps some local NoDa artwork/murals to jazz it up. This is one of those areas where it will be important to get the details right (sidewalk width, lighting, amenities) to make it a successful station area.

[queensguy06]

Denver comes to mind as a city that has a LRT line running in an interstate ROW.....does anyone know if land-use has improved along this route?

To answer a couple questions about the Denver RTD there are parts of the rail system that run both parallel to the freeway and down the center median. If I remember correctly, the I-225 extension goes out to the Nine Mile station, which is complete and this is the section that runs through the center median. Once it gets back to I-25 it runs right next to the freeway and is so separated from the surrounding areas after the Univ. of Denver station that it might as well be in the median of the freeway.

Commenting on the land-use...the E,F, and G lines run through an area that reminds me of Ballentyne but several times larger. There are a lot of park and ride lots surrounded by multiple office complexes, a large mall reminiscent of Pineville, etc., etc. The H and G lines which run to Nine Mile are a lot newer and there is very sparse development from Nine Mile past Dayton. However, it does look as though this area will be much of the same with limited light rail access and more suburban office buildings and the likes. Having said all this, that entire corridor does have a fair amount of ridership. Not nearly as heavily travelled as the C and D lines south to Mineral, but still quite busy.

Just to put Denver's light rail ridership into perspective with Charlotte, the majority of the time the southeast lines run double stacked trains and occasionally (like during the DNC) run triple stacked trains. The south lines always run triple stacked trains and get pretty packed on any given day.

Here is a link to the Denver RTD map.

[Spartan]

^ I agree Spartan. Though NoDa is great, I can't think of too many pedestrians willing to walk through a tunnel of the length required in that part of town.

How about a vehicle tunnel and "artsy" pedestrian only bridge.

I think of it more like an interestate overpass for 277. It kills pedestrian activity. Doesn't North Carolina State have some sort of tunnel that students paint for various things? I hope that the planners of this thing will see it fit to let the art community do something like that with the tunnel walls and supports.

[New Name]

We have a neighborhood meeting tonight. I plan to bring this up.

I did a little scouting though and the one thing I noticed is that there is actually already a grade separation between the two sides of the tracks: the Tryon St. side falls about the same distance as a low bridge (all be it gradually) as soon as you cross the tracks coming from the Davidson side. I don't know much about the engineering of this, but maybe it could be done so the tracks and station would seem to be at a similar grade with the Davidson business and sidewalks but at full height only from the Tryon accessed side.

[monsoon]

The new news, at least given to the public, but not new here at UrbanPlanet, is that CATS admitted last week the NE line is going to cost close to $1B and won't open until 2015 at the earliest. In addition, they have changed their plan to require 80% federal funding or $800,000,000 coming from the federal government. Going by CATS track record, 2015 really means 2017-2018 or close to a decade from now.

I am wondering now if the NE Line is viable given these considerations. The big question for me is the federal funding piece. I was chatting with Neo today and we were remarking on the incredible amount of debt being run up by the federal government on not only the endless Iraq war, but now on trying to shore up the banking system in this country. We all know about the economic stimulus checks, the various bailouts, the bailout legislation, and aside from that, the Treasury has been pouring 100s of billions of tax dollars into the money system in attempts to get the banks to start lending. The borrowing is unprecedented and I suspect just the taxes just to cover the interest payments are going to be more than people will stand. And so far there seems to be no end to it. The United States is entering into uncharted territory in placing burden on future generations.

Given the above situation there would seem to be no chance the federal government will have the appetite or, more importantly, the ability to spend money on local train projects. A great deal will also depend upon the government the people decide to elect in 2008. The current administration killed a great deal of train funding in this country.

I get the feeling this project is turning into another TTA project. It goes on indefinitely with increasing costs and moving dates until it is eventually killed. So does CATS have a viable plan, or has it designed a project that will never be built, gut does keep people employed working on it indefinitely?

And while we are at it, I couldn't help it, but you might want to check out this post by ChiefJoJo.