CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[LKN704]

One of the things that I always have felt that CATS has done right is the distinct and complete grade separation between LRT and cars, versus other LRT systems in the country generally have some portions of their systems running at street level. 

I would hope it would stay that way. Uptown would simply be a cluttered mess if you had LRT and streetcar running through it at street level. I voted for the East/West tunnel, which I believe offers the best ultimate value, even though its upfront costs are the highest.

Edit:

I wouldn't worry about the loss of parking revenue at the airport. CLT and CATS could either:

-install faregates between the APM and the LRT station(similar to Airtrain EWR and JFK), requiring a surcharge to enter/leave the airport APM system

-make the airport station a separate fare zone, requiring those trips that start at / end at CLT to have an additional surcharge 

Edited July 19, 2018 by LKN704

[dubone]

I always kinda wished the city would just have the airport fund a portion of the line with a nominal surcharge and passengers plane ticket is the train ticket ride.     I know that is not really in the cards, but conceptually, the airport building a 1.5 mile people mover which is 20% of the total distance to downtown.  Combine the projects, have a fare-free zone on airport property, count all that intra-airport trips for the glory of the transit system, and make it a no brainer to just ride the rest of the way to the central business district. 

[kermit]

Gaston County sez: “LRT to Belmont is great, but we want it to run all they way to Gastonia.” 

Reading about their funding strategy reveals that the Gastonia plan is just a fantasy. In addition, a  Gastonia terminus would make the run too long (22 miles from uptown — longer than the full Blue Line) to be practical for LRT. They need to be talking about commuter rail to Gastonia, Bessimer City and Kings Mountain (which could be running much sooner) and plan for overlap / interchange with the West line LRT  in Belmont instead.

http://www.gastongazette.com/news/20180718/should-light-rail-stop-in-belmont-or-come-to-gastonia

Edited July 19, 2018 by kermit

[UPNoDa]

On 7/17/2018 at 3:04 PM, kermit said:

I seriously feel like CATS phoned-in their North corridor suggestions: http://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/red-line/Pages/default.aspx

The proposals are:

• The original Red Line (but they essentially write it off as impossible and slow -- 56 minutes)
• I-77 BRT (the fastest (and cheapest) of the four options at 40 minutes)
• LRT on US 21 (and Statesville ave). Expensive, slow (63 minutes) and bypasses the walkable and moderately dense downtowns. On the plus side, stops at Oaklawn and Atando would certainly create development around Camp North End.
• BRT on US 21: Ugh. Expensive, and BRT, but slightly better circulation in N Meck towns than the I-77 BRT.

The seriously feels like sandbagging to generate acceptance for Express Lane BRT. But its hard to see I-77 BRT motivating many votes for an expanded transit tax (or legislative approval for same).

Pressure from state pols might be the only thing that would move NS (e.g. "in return for access to the O-Line we will give you x,y and z"). If only we had statewide politicians who gave a crap about transit...

Here is the CBJ article on the alternatives: https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2018/07/17/cats-moving-into-next-phase-of-west-north-corridor.html

Isn't there something in the books about "imminent domain" for rail line use if it benefits the public and deemed necessary for economic success?

[kermit]

31 minutes ago, UPNoDa said:

Isn't there something in the books about "imminent domain" for rail line use if it benefits the public and deemed necessary for economic success?

Yes, but railroad property is exempt from eminent domain takings. So....

[elrodvt]

12 minutes ago, kermit said:

Yes, but railroad property is exempt from eminent domain takings. So....

Lobby your congressman. They're all about the common good of society and going after companies that shower them with money.

[JRNYP2C]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

Gaston County sez: “LRT to Belmont is great, but we want it to run all they way to Gastonia.” 

Reading about their funding strategy reveals that the Gastonia plan is just a fantasy. In addition, a  Gastonia terminus would make the run too long (22 miles from uptown — longer than the full Blue Line) to be practical for LRT. They need to be talking about commuter rail to Gastonia, Bessimer City and Kings Mountain (which could be running much sooner) and plan for overlap / interchange with the West line LRT  in Belmont instead.

http://www.gastongazette.com/news/20180718/should-light-rail-stop-in-belmont-or-come-to-gastonia

I agree.  I would love for this to stretch into the eastern part of the county, at the least.  The sentiment that I have read on some Facebook pages is 50/50 on this.  Some want it here (with the caveat it go to G-Town), and others don't want it at all - mostly due to the "mysterious" crime that it would bring to our lovely county to the west.  If anything, for me, it would be a helpful tool to alleviate traffic on 85, be an added necessity for the River District when it is built and a positive boost for a county that has always been the punching bag of the entire region.

[elrodvt]

^Maybe the doubters should talk to the people in Pineville? 

That said, I can't imagine it getting built anyway.  It would be pretty fun to read the pro/con arguments for a while though. Hope they write the observer. Those letters are the BEST!

[dubone]

Suburban satellite towns always seem to have this feeling of deserving the train but without regard for the economics and likelihood it will be effective.   In older places in the Boston-Washington corridor there is a lot of infrastructure that would be there for suburban towns because they go through them to get to the next big city.  In Gastonia's case, they will be on whatever gets going toward Atlanta but that is not exactly a sure thing.

I am perfectly fine if it follows the model of the other corridors and stops short of 485 with a commuter station at the end.    

 

I am excited about the BRT and Statesville Avenue options on the Red Line.  BRT absolutely is just a next level on the express bus that is going to be benefitting from the toll lanes.   I think that type of system works ok for such a long corridor that is mainly about commutes and not constant urban back and forth travel.   It'll be exciting to watch them justify that as the only viable solution for north Meck and then watch as it becomes a status symbol again where BRT is beneath them.   But all in all, they do not have the ridership projections to warrant light rail for such a huge distance.  But LRT makes most sense on Statesville Ave, so if they are going to go that route, NOW is the time to get that on the books because they can reserve that right of way while they are in the process of widening Statesville Ave in the next few years.   If that project happens and they don't reserve a median wide enough for it, then that becomes a non-starter for costs.  

[CLT2014]

On 7/23/2018 at 11:50 AM, dubone said:

Suburban satellite towns always seem to have this feeling of deserving the train but without regard for the economics and likelihood it will be effective.  

I think the "deserving" feeling comes from being taxed extra to pay for the transit, yet not being in close proximity to really use it. Meanwhile York County residents can jump on the 485/South station to get to work, and retreat to their county on weekends where they don't pay an increased sales tax for transit. Same for some Concord residents on the north end. Meanwhile, North Meck has this feeling they are a piggy bank and don't get as much bang for their buck as suburbs in separate counties from Mecklenburg. The poor infrastructure to get up there has further isolated them from a sense of where their tax dollars go since they can't easily access other areas of the county.

Edited July 24, 2018 by CLT2014

[elrodvt]

4 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I think the "deserving" feeling comes from being taxed extra to pay for the transit, yet not being in close proximity to really use it. Meanwhile York County residents can jump on the 485/South station to get to work, and retreat to their county on weekends where they don't pay an increased sales tax for transit. Same for some Concord residents on the north end. Meanwhile, North Meck has this feeling they are a piggy bank and don't get as much bang for their buck as suburbs in separate counties from Mecklenburg. The poor infrastructure to get up there has further isolated them from a sense of where their tax dollars go since they can't easily access other areas of the county.

I bet there are inequities especially in north meck. Still, what people seem to ignore is that those of us who do live a lot closer or are lucky enough to have had the blue line run nearby don't use the roads as much. People who do use the roads every day should realize the reverse argument of "not getting the bang for the buck" is true for the folks on trains regarding all the roadwork. Pretty tough to figure out.

SC getting a free ride is very annoying though. Can't really get into a "we're all in this together" discussion about that! Toll them like the garden state or something to enter NC. Sure some people will slip around it but that would raise some serious money right? Another idea is what Philly did with an employment tax. If you work in Meck but don't live there your wages are taxed by Meck. Not sure how that worked out for Philly just throwing it out there. Their problem was DE.

[nicholas]

I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to build a single commuter line from Gastonia to the Airport, then continue the commuter line adjacent to the silver line into uptown (so there would be three tracks parallel to each other instead of the normal two).  The commuter line would start from Gastonia and include stops at Cramerton, Belmont, and the airport (where riders could transfer onto the Silver Line if they needed to reach a stop between the airport and uptown) before continuing uninterrupted into uptown.  With only three stops between Gastonia and Uptown, I think it would be quite an expedient trip and could certainly attract riders who have tired of the constant stop and roll on 85 heading into Charlotte.

[Dale]

3 hours ago, nicholas said:

I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to build a single commuter line from Gastonia to the Airport, then continue the commuter line adjacent to the silver line into uptown (so there would be three tracks parallel to each other instead of the normal two).  The commuter line would start from Gastonia and include stops at Cramerton, Belmont, and the airport (where riders could transfer onto the Silver Line if they needed to reach a stop between the airport and uptown) before continuing uninterrupted into uptown.  With only three stops between Gastonia and Uptown, I think it would be quite an expedient trip and could certainly attract riders who have tired of the constant stop and roll on 85 heading into Charlotte.

It could work. Ft Worth is running commuter rail to the airport.

[southslider]

^Commuter rail is only cost-effective when basically buying some train units to run on largely existing tracks.

[deleted]

On 7/24/2018 at 6:24 PM, elrodvt said:

I bet there are inequities especially in north meck. Still, what people seem to ignore is that those of us who do live a lot closer or are lucky enough to have had the blue line run nearby don't use the roads as much. People who do use the roads every day should realize the reverse argument of "not getting the bang for the buck" is true for the folks on trains regarding all the roadwork. Pretty tough to figure out.

SC getting a free ride is very annoying though. Can't really get into a "we're all in this together" discussion about that! Toll them like the garden state or something to enter NC. Sure some people will slip around it but that would raise some serious money right? Another idea is what Philly did with an employment tax. If you work in Meck but don't live there your wages are taxed by Meck. Not sure how that worked out for Philly just throwing it out there. Their problem was DE.

Sounds like a good way to get Charlotte companies to relocate to Fort Mill.

[elrodvt]

6 hours ago, southslider said:

^Commuter rail is only cost-effective when basically buying some train units to run on largely existing tracks.

Denver's commuter rail to the airport seems successful. I can't remember if they used existing track or not though. Didn't think so but you could be right.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Apologies if not immediately related to these lines exactly.  But here's an interesting study but not overly surprising, it states that ride sharing does not do anything to ease traffic and actually adds miles to the road at the end there's a bullet hypothesizing automated vehicles will have a similar impact. 

May be worth sharing with your local representatives in support of a more expansive transit plan.

http://www.schallerconsult.com/rideservices/automobility.htm

Edited July 30, 2018 by SouthEndCLT811

[Dale]

1 hour ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

Apologies if not immediately related to these lines exactly.  But here's an interesting study but not overly surprising, it states that ride sharing does not do anything to ease traffic and actually adds miles to the road at the end there's a bullet hypothesizing automated vehicles will have a similar impact. 

May be worth sharing with your local representatives in support of a more expansive transit plan.

http://www.schallerconsult.com/rideservices/automobility.htm

Translation: at the end of the day, nothing can prevent a growing and prospering city from becoming a victim of its own success.

[15895]

7 hours ago, Dale said:

Translation: at the end of the day, nothing can prevent a growing and prospering city from becoming a victim of its own success.

At the end of the day, we need more choo choo’s

 

 

[Dale]

Never forget my son's third Christmas. Got him a Thomas the Tank Engine set and laid it all out. My son was likely overwhelmed, but tried to nonchalant it. He leaned back against the couch, feet cross, and exclaimed, "Yookadattrain."

[elrodvt]

^Still a hot ticket today with our grandkids. 

[dubone]

On 7/24/2018 at 6:24 PM, elrodvt said:

SC getting a free ride is very annoying though. Can't really get into a "we're all in this together" discussion about that! Toll them like the garden state or something to enter NC. Sure some people will slip around it but that would raise some serious money right? Another idea is what Philly did with an employment tax. If you work in Meck but don't live there your wages are taxed by Meck. Not sure how that worked out for Philly just throwing it out there. Their problem was DE.

This is the main reason that the federal government is involved in paying for the interstate and, although less so, for transit.  But transit has a fare component for actual users.   As long interstate commutes grow more popular and waste the infrastructure, clogging them to a low level of service then I think those toll lanes help mitigate some of that, again putting some cost share on the daily users themselves.    But overall, we need to beware the law of unintended consequences.  Often trying to overtly charge people as they cross state lines or pursue an income tax or other special taxes often just ends up causing employers to move.     

 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

32 minutes ago, dubone said:

This is the main reason that the federal government is involved in paying for the interstate and, although less so, for transit.  But transit has a fare component for actual users.   As long interstate commutes grow more popular and waste the infrastructure, clogging them to a low level of service then I think those toll lanes help mitigate some of that, again putting some cost share on the daily users themselves.    But overall, we need to beware the law of unintended consequences.  Often trying to overtly charge people as they cross state lines or pursue an income tax or other special taxes often just ends up causing employers to move.     

 

Inter- actually is referring to outside of the state. I think what you are inferring is INTRA- (staying within one state), which much of their funding does in fact do. 

[kermit]

On 7/28/2018 at 1:15 PM, nicholas said:

I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to build a single commuter line from Gastonia to the Airport, then continue the commuter line adjacent to the silver line into uptown (so there would be three tracks parallel to each other instead of the normal two).  The commuter line would start from Gastonia and include stops at Cramerton, Belmont, and the airport (where riders could transfer onto the Silver Line if they needed to reach a stop between the airport and uptown) before continuing uninterrupted into uptown.  With only three stops between Gastonia and Uptown, I think it would be quite an expedient trip and could certainly attract riders who have tired of the constant stop and roll on 85 heading into Charlotte.

In a perfect world, where NS was happy to host the commuter service on its tracks, the cost of Gastonia (the track would allow for service to be terminated in Kings Mtn but lets ignore that for now) to CLT Gateway commuter rail would be roughly:

• $60 million for three new trainsets
• $140  million for an equipment service and storage yard at the end of the line (also need equipment storage space in CLT but ignoring for now)
• $200 million for new stations (with seperate track)  in Belmont, Cramerton, E Gastonia, and trackwork at the existing Gastonia station (you would probably also want a West Gastonia / I-85 park and ride but will ignore that for now)
• $100 million to double track the short sections of single track which remain on the route and add a couple of new crossovers 
• assume that stations at Gateway and the airport would be fully paid via NCDOT intercity rail programs (Piedmont service and SEHSR)

so roughly $500 million best case for Gastonia to CLT commuter rail  (all of these are FMA* numbers). NS would probably limit this service to 5 trains in the morning and 5 in the evening — Bidirectional service would be essentially non-existant.

In the real world the NS main south of Charlotte is currently a parking lot and the area around the intermodal yard is particularly critical to keep uncongested. This means that NS would probably  minimally request a third track on the whole route (four around the intermodal yard)  in return for hosting.  This would require replacing several bridges and would probably add $300+ million to the cost (about $10 million per mile). 

Given the proposed  routing of the West Line LRT no transfer between commuter and LRT would be possible at Belmont and would require people mover use at the airport.

Before the new intermodal yard I thought this commuter service would be a no-brainer. However NS has changed their use patterns in the area making this project much less cost-effective.

* From My Ass

Edited August 1, 2018 by kermit

[dubone]

CATS has a video that helps explain why commuter lines tend to have lower ridership, and likely a lower opportunity for TOD purely on the pattern of the train operations

http://charlottenc.gov/_layouts/15/clientbin/mediaplaceholder.mp4

 

The light rail options have a vastly better opportunity to diversify and add development to the western areas of town.