CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

[KJHburg]

^^^^^^ I would suspect Alcohol 

[kermit]

It appears that Dow is closing their Orr Rd facility (where they make adhesives). Unless the facility finds a buyer in the same industry this will likely remove one of the last freight sidings on the NCRR in Mecklenburg (the Craighead cement factory / scrapyard siding is the only other one that comes to mind). 

TLDR: Local tracks will become substantially friendlier to commuter and intercity passenger rail.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article229285554.html

Edited April 17, 2019 by kermit

[ChessieCat]

13 hours ago, kermit said:

It appears that Dow is closing their Orr Rd facility (where they make adhesives). Unless the facility finds a buyer in the same industry this will likely remove one of the last freight sidings on the NCRR in Mecklenburg (the Craighead cement factory / scrapyard siding is the only other one that comes to mind). 

TLDR: Local tracks will become substantially friendlier to commuter and intercity passenger rail.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article229285554.html

Would love to see Kannapolis to CLT-Gateway commuter rail in the future along the NCRR.

Edited April 17, 2019 by ChessieCat

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Would love to see Kannapolis to CLT-Gateway commuter rail in the future along the NCRR.

That really should be Kannapolis to CLT-Gateway to Gastonia  and back but now we have Silver Line planned going into Belmont, so not sure if it would be viable.

[ChessieCat]

36 minutes ago, Scribe said:

That really should be Kannapolis to CLT-Gateway to Gastonia  and back but now we have Silver Line planned going into Belmont, so not sure if it would be viable.

The locomotive works under construction in South End by Summit Ave will be completed soon and will be the new turn-around for all NCDOT/Amtrak-Carolinian trains.  They constructed it with commuter rail in mind too, so they should put it to good use IMHO.

Edited April 17, 2019 by ChessieCat

[XRZ.ME]

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/rapidtransit

CATS has published a survey for Pineville and ballantyne rapaid transit planning.

[Hushpuppy321]

Just took the survey and gave my 2-Cent for what it’s worth.  CATS would be a fool to not extend this through to Ballantyne.  So many people work in Ballantyne and even more people pass through Ballantyne trying to get elsewhere.  Here’s my thoughts below;

Extending Blueline Lightrail should only have 4 stops total.  1 conventional Station in Pineville (I prefer the Mall Area over Downtown, more space for development and Bus Transfers), 3 in Ballantyne.  1st in Btyne at Corporate Park/Btyne Village Area should be a Major Park n Ride Deck/Station that would be well suited to receive riders from all the SC People coming Up/Down 521 daily.  2nd would be a conventional Station at MetLife/Community House Rd or Rea Rd/Stonecrest Area.  Last would be a Major Park n Ride Station on Providence Rd at the Waverly/Rea Farms Area that would be well suited to receive riders from all the Union County folks coming Up/Down NC16.

I understand that many of the Drivers commuting up and down Johnston and Providence are mostly affluent and don’t always trend towards public transit but the Traffic situation is so dire currently that they’d Park and Ride just like a lot of SC Folks coming out of York County currently do at the I-485 Park n Ride.   This Blue-Line Extension should most definitely happen concurrently with any Silver-Line Big Bang Work.  Even though 485 is receiving Toll Lanes now by the time everything is built (Toll Lanes in 3 years, Lightrail Extension in 10, etc) Traffic will still be heavy enough that peak usage would be very high.  Off-peak usage would be decent as well because there’s already good density in these areas of Ballantyne and more to come.

[Desert Power]

18 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Just took the survey and gave my 2-Cent for what it’s worth.  CATS would be a fool to not extend this through to Ballantyne.  So many people work in Ballantyne and even more people pass through Ballantyne trying to get elsewhere.  Here’s my thoughts below;

Extending Blueline Lightrail should only have 4 stops total.  1 conventional Station in Pineville (I prefer the Mall Area over Downtown, more space for development and Bus Transfers), 3 in Ballantyne.  1st in Btyne at Corporate Park/Btyne Village Area should be a Major Park n Ride Deck/Station that would be well suited to receive riders from all the SC People coming Up/Down 521 daily.  2nd would be a conventional Station at MetLife/Community House Rd or Rea Rd/Stonecrest Area.  Last would be a Major Park n Ride Station on Providence Rd at the Waverly/Rea Farms Area that would be well suited to receive riders from all the Union County folks coming Up/Down NC16.

I understand that many of the Drivers commuting up and down Johnston and Providence are mostly affluent and don’t always trend towards public transit but the Traffic situation is so dire currently that they’d Park and Ride just like a lot of SC Folks coming out of York County currently do at the I-485 Park n Ride.   This Blue-Line Extension should most definitely happen concurrently with any Silver-Line Big Bang Work.  Even though 485 is receiving Toll Lanes now by the time everything is built (Toll Lanes in 3 years, Lightrail Extension in 10, etc) Traffic will still be heavy enough that peak usage would be very high.  Off-peak usage would be decent as well because there’s already good density in these areas of Ballantyne and more to come.

Need to have faster headways/3 train cars to deal with this.  Trains are already pretty damn crowded during rushhour.

[XRZ.ME]

https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2018-Q4-Ridership-APTA.pdf

 

American Public Transit Asso.'s report ridership of all public transit for 2018.

 

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, XRZ.ME said:

https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2018-Q4-Ridership-APTA.pdf

 

American Public Transit Asso.'s report ridership of all public transit for 2018.

 

A LOT of bad numbers for very many metros across the country.  Charlotte's ability to continue to create TOD is key to keeping this number rising

[CLT>]

5 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2018-Q4-Ridership-APTA.pdf

 

American Public Transit Asso.'s report ridership of all public transit for 2018.

  

CATS had the second highest increase in the nation in the 4th quarter?!

(There's another page, just screenshotted one)

[Desert Power]

41 minutes ago, CLT> said:

CATS had the second highest increase in the nation in the 4th quarter?!

 

(There's another page, just screenshotted one)

4th quarter 18 vs 4th quarter 17, so you are comparing with and without BLE

[Guest]

4th quarter 18 vs 4th quarter 17, so you are comparing with and without BLE

Yea, probably should want it to be much higher


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CLT>]

Yeah, was aware about the BLE in there. Still, didn't expect the bump with the BLE below projections to be that big a percentage gain overall.

[Desert Power]

9 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Yea, probably should want it to be much higher


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not having anything built around 25th street (including the bridge that would connect the Collective and Villa Heights) is going to be a pretty big drag into 2020.  Eventually, though, that area is going to have an impact.

[tozmervo]

34 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

Not having anything built around 25th street (including the bridge that would connect the Collective and Villa Heights) is going to be a pretty big drag into 2020.  Eventually, though, that area is going to have an impact.

There were also connectivity problems for 36th St, and until recently Sugar Creek. Doesn't explain away all the ridership issues, but certainly noteworthy 

[kermit]

Some bits from the April MTC Agenda package: https://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/boards/MTC Agenda Package/MTC-Agenda-Package-190424.pdf

1) Ron Tober (speaking as a private citizen) provided a plea for CATS "reconsider the 11th street alignment" and to "not discard the possibility of the Trade Street alignment" [tunnel] for the Silver Line through Uptown. For those who don't remember Tober he was the head of CATS during the bulk of the Blue Line construction and he served as head of the RTA (Cleveland) before that. He was also working at the Seattle Transit Agency when they built their transit tunnel.

2) The Man is watching you on CATS, CMPD will have live access to all CATS cameras once upgrades are complete.

3) There is some different information about the new station on the Blue Line near Publix / Portman:

Quote

The work is underway to develop, again, a fully-controlled pedestrian crossing right in that area, again, near Publix, and the intent would be if we get into the station design then we know it's going to be located somewhere right in there, the crossing project is being designed with an eye to try and be as flexible and compatible with the future station project, but we know we would want it to be in that area. And again, once the station was developed, then essentially you have the mechanism for people to cross the corridor because that's inherent in the station itself.

CATS CEO LEWIS: The intent was to start to explain how this started, this started as a CATS project because of pedestrian concerns that we had and people crossing the right-of -way, so we were ready to move forward with this as a pedestrian safety issue. We were then approached by the private sector, who said 'We're doing a lot of development and it would be a great enhancement to us to have a station.' Our position is, 'Fine, if you pay for it,' and so we're having those conversations now. If the private sector doesn't come forward with enough to move forward with a full station, we'll move forward with the pedestrian issue, and so that will depend on what funding support we get from private developers on that.

There is a bunch of discussion about the station on pages 11-12. Sounds like CATS wasn't pleased about the amount of contributions that developers were offering and is now moving back to a pedestrian-only crossing until land owners cough-up more money.

4) More discussion of platform extensions on the Blue line. Annoyingly CATS said they need three car capacity now (for special events) [just run more trains GD it]. And they now wished they had the money to continue expanding platforms. Sounds like they will push design work forward with couch-cushion money and make the remaining platforms shovel-ready. [Gezzus, F-Christ. Why did they pull the plug on the capacity expansion grant? Why don't they already have most of this design work done since the Blue Line was engineered to have three-car platforms before the value-engineering? Why hasn't anyone mentioned increasing frequency instead????? (20 minute headways after 7pm SUCKKKKK]

5) Lots of talk about having the Silver Line open by 2030. But  they did essentially admit that the Ballantyne extension was not on the same timeline (it will be longer for that). Design work on the Silver Line will begin this summer (and funding for that is budgeted) but their was implication that the Btyne extension will be a lower priority. Sounds like any CATS project other than the Silver Line is waiting on news about Value Capture funding.

6) [encouragingly]: The representative from Stallings mentioned that an Atrium Hospital will be built there and since they will not be paying property taxes Stallings is negotiating for the Hospital to pay for a park and ride lot on their site.

7) It kinda cracks me up how frequently the mayor of Gastonia speaks up to make it sound like LRT all the way to Gastown is a sure thing (it is not)

8) On the [old] Red Line:

Quote

MAYOR KNOX (Davidson): I go back-and-forth up 115 every day, and 3/4 of that line from Mooresville to almost Charlotte is abandoned. It's like a slap in the face, and at some point, we've got to get to the table with it.

CATS CEO LEWIS: We are in constant conversation with Norfolk Southern on lots of issues. In particular we're having very detailed conversation with them on the Silver Line. They are a willing partner on the areas that we can find common ground. It just seemed to be O-line is one area that we are not able to approach that for the same reasons that have been a hurdle for us for the last 10 years.

  9) Vi Lyles made this inscrutable statement about the South Charlotte transportation summit:

Quote

it was pretty tough to have the South Carolina governor come out and say I want to have rail from Rock Hill to Columbia, and we've been talking about rail to Matthews for years. And you know, the way he sounded -- now, I have to admit, they're all of one mind down there, they're all Republicans, and they all came together and they said we're going to have this facility, we're going to build it, we are going to figure out how to connect with going down to Columbia. And I think we can do that; it just takes more of us to do it together.

This is the first I have heard of this but, should it happen it would almost certainly cement 1) Charlotte to Columbia intercity service and 2) Rock Hill commuter service. I am getting the sense that McMaster is a train guy.

EDIT: The more I think about this quote the more I think Lyles mis-spoke. I think she was referring to McMaster saying he wanted LRT from Charlotte (not Columbia) to Rock Hill 

10) The conceptual diagrams of the proposed Indian Trail terminus of the Silver line show it being at a large sports complex near 'downtown.' Really?

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kermit

[Scribe]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

Why did they pull the plug on the capacity expansion grant? Why don't they already have most of this design work done since the Blue Line was engineered to have three-car platforms before the value-engineering? Why hasn't anyone mentioned increasing frequency instead??

I still have twitch in my neck every time I remember their announcement about "postponing" (cancelling) the platform expansion.

[Matthew.Brendan]

What is the impediment to just running more frequent trains? That seems like the easiest thing in the world that we can do right now.

[kermit]

19 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

What is the impediment to just running more frequent trains? That seems like the easiest thing in the world that we can do right now.

More vehicles and more drivers. I think they are pretty close to their current vehicle capacity maximum at peak now.

Of course the vehicle cost of increased frequency could be roughly the same as running three car trains.

Edited April 30, 2019 by kermit

[NDL]

***

I find absolutely amazing the widespread support for light rail into Ballantyne.  Meanwhile, the City sees rapid bus service into the yet-unbuilt River District as a satisfactory alternative to light rail.

Amazing.

 

We should throw our widespread support over a River District that is built around light rail access.   Such a development, if done right, (coupled with unique riverfront development) would truly set Charlotte a part from other cities.

[QClifer]

i think the ballantyne light rail would be more beneficial, it would pull alot of riders from the 485/s blvd stop though since i think most are driving from the ballantyne/521 area.    I dont think a river district/airport line would get many riders if it opened in the next 8years. Its to easy and cheap to hop in a uber from the airport and not have to wait and then walk to wherever you are going downtown from the train station. id love to have a line there but dont think it would get used enough and then everybody would call it a failure and not want anymore lines

[kermit]

I think the massive success of Southend has led people to think of LRT as more of a savior of downtrodden real estate rather than as a transportation system. I am not sure a Btyne extension would be getting as much attention if it were not for the pending implosion of Carolina Place and the desperation of Pineville to finally get connected. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kermit

[elrodvt]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

More vehicles and more drivers. I think they are pretty close to their current vehicle capacity maximum at peak now.

Of course the vehicle cost of increased frequency could be roughly the same as running three car trains.

Obviously they can hire more drivers. But the vehicles is troubling. Why is that, do they have too few "engines" or maintenance is too heavy?

I've seen them stack trains for a couple Hornets games. But not nearly enough times. That would be a start (special events in general). Then set a longer term goal to reduce the timing all day.

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I think the massive success of Southend has led people to think of LRT as more of a savior of downtrodden real estate rather than as a transportation system. I am not sure a Btyne extension would be getting as much attention if it were not for the pending implosion of Carolina Place and the desperation of Pineville to finally get connected. 

I bet. But I am bitter regarding Pineville. Let them stew. Skip that stop in the plan unless they pony up extra cash to cover the inflation since they made that decision.