CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, likewyatt said:

I'm sure Quail Hollow wants a light rail line through its golf course. I'm really not sure how some of you hold down jobs. 

I think its interesting you joined an hour ago to post that drivel. Really not sure who pays you to join UP to sh*t on people. Shame on you.

 

I think a providence road line to Ballentyne/Arboretum/SouthPark would be a missing link. Could go down park to Elizabeth, Providence to Elizabeth or back to Blue line. Would be either a solid blue line Spur, and the South Park connection that has been mentioned.

[kermit]

5 hours ago, norm21499 said:

Since there is serious discussion by the city to extend the blue line I to Ballantyne, I have a different proposal. Build a new light rail that starts in Uptown, runs through South Park, and terminates in Ballantyne. I understand it will be stupidly expensive and "unfeasible', but Southpark needs light rail since that area is continuing to densify and is a big employment hub.

FWIW, from a Ballantyne perspective it looks like the Blue Line spur route is about a 1/2 mile shorter to Uptown than a South Park route would be (a South Park route would probably be significantly longer than I measured due to ROW acquisition issues). Given the relatively high speeds and good grade separation on the Blue Line  I suspect that route would be significantly faster than the South Park route as well  (unless the 'rich-people rail'  was all tunneled or elevated).

I do agree, the city would certainly benefit from South Park rapid transit. As we all know it would be crazy expensive and not have stellar ridership (due to residential densities) but it does seem important to connect the second largest concentration of office space in the Carolina's to rail. I am with Orluz, I think the Tyvola route off the Blue Line is the most realistic route.  

Edited June 11, 2019 by kermit

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

I think there are lots of paths that can be drawn to get to South Park from Uptown (like @Windsurfer's suggestion), the trickier part is getting beyond SP into the great expanse of South Charlotte. There are no vast tracks of land to develop, densities are very low, and none of the ROWs are particularly wide. It's not an accident that the old "wedges and corridors" framework only addresses SP as an activity node - serving the "wedges" directly with rapid transit is a real challenge.

I agree that this is the challenge. But wouldn't an "O"-line work or at least a "South Crescent"??

• Start at the airport
• Follow Tyvola through to SouthPark (originally I would have preferred to follow Route 4 -- the bold road from I-85 at Airport to I-85 North-East of Uptown)
• Turn up on Sharon Rd to get back on Route 4
• Terminate somewhere at US 74 (Independence Blvd) or go all the way to I-85

It could be a phased "O" line but it would end up hitting both Blue and Silver lines in Phase 1 and most importantly the Airport.

[CLTranspo]

I just worry that any rail transit actually going into the wedge of south Charlotte wouldn’t be successful, because densities are so low and any parcels along transit lines would likely have to overcome vast opposition to increase densities to where they would actually complement the transit (As some other users have pointed out). Southpark and to some extent Ballantyne are the obvious hot spots of activity and higher density that could probably support a station or two. At the same time, we have to make progress somewhere - especially if we don’t want to become the next Atlanta as we say.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, CLTranspo said:

south Charlotte wouldn’t be successful, because densities are so low

You could have killed original Blue Line or the extension with the same argument.

I think if there are destination/hot zones on the route it could work just fine.

[CLTranspo]

13 minutes ago, Scribe said:

You could have killed original Blue Line or the extension with the same argument.

The original blue line and extension both cover areas of industrial and/or undeveloped land ripe for reuse and redevelopment. The south Charlotte wedge, however, does not. This area is almost completely developed with low density housing that I think will be much more difficult/expensive to replace or redevelop. 

 

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, CLTranspo said:

This area is almost completely developed with low density housing that I think will be much more difficult/expensive to replace or redevelop.

yes, but what Phase 1 of the "O" line has is hot pockets of office and retail (and this is not dependent on "if you build it they will come").... Airport, Tyvola Business Park (south-east of CLT), CityPark, SouthPark (SP is not as low density as everyone says it is, especially with the current construction pipeline), Cotswold, MoRa or M Station at Monroe and US 74.

In the end, light rail through the wedge will most likely need to rely on existing right-of-way. i.e. use the existing road alignment. Go up when absolutely necessary (elevated), but some sections could use a road diet.

Anyway you look at it this will not be an "easy" project.

[kermit]

If the city was smart they would have developed a 100 year transportation plan in conjunction with the UDO.

[orulz]

Charlotte is light-years away from being ready for a circumferential rail line. Circumferential lines *always* underperform compared to lines that hit the CBD, even in places like New York, Paris, and Tokyo. It is also a common fallacy in non-transit cities and new transit cities to over-emphasize the importance of lines to the airport.

South Park-CLT is likely not a good route for rail any time this century.

I *would* like to see a gold line branch to CMC, at least as far into Dilworth as East Blvd. Perhaps even another half mile past there to where Kenilworth and Scott connect together. (On the other side of town, maybe a branch to the old Freedom Mall as well). Call this Gold Line Phase IV.

[Scribe]

38 minutes ago, orulz said:

South Park-CLT is likely not a good route for rail any time this century.

Yes, lets wait until everything is built out before we lock in the land to run the line, because that worked so well for every other major metro.

Circumferential lines should be treated like glue for the larger transit system (for instance fare's should not be tied to a line but to starting/ending points), with proper planning and frequency a circumferential line is a great option.

The problem with transit planners is they are all stuck in the past, too afraid to think outside their traditional transit planning box.

[ertley]

I won't quote myself, but I'll reiterate my argument from the other week--when the merits of tunneling and new developments in the field were being discussed--that with Blue Line extensions being considered as likely, and planning for the Silver Line, both of which are likely at least a decade away from being completed or even partially finished,  CATS should start making more ambitious plans for other modes, including tunneling, for the mid- and long terms. If  measurable progress is somehow achieved in tunneling technology and cost over the next decade or two, it may not be as unfeasible then as it seems now.

The established, low density, high priced nature of the Charlotte "wedge" not only means it'll be extraordinarily difficult to weave light rail through that area, and even more so later as property values rise even higher, but it's also the kind of area that tunneling was developed for, and because of, precisely because of its residential nature and cost. The built elevated and surface lines in New York and London through working class and poor neighborhoods, but they had to tunnel through the high rent areas for the exactly the same reasons. 

I argue for a circular route that starts from Uptown--and could even manifest that tunnel under Trade so many people want to see--with stops at Midtown/Cherry, then Dilworth/East Boulevard (where there are actually empty lot(s) that could be partially allocated now for a future stop), maybe even an intermediate stop at the Park Road/Scott intersection, which needs some kind of focus--then maybe CATS could work with the YMCA to put a stop in front their facility at Townes--then definitely down to Montford, where the Park Road Shopping Center also has plenty of space to be designated for a future stop--then another potential intermediate stop near where Selwyn runs into Park--then over to South Park, then to Strawberry Hill at Providence, then Cotswold, where again the shopping center has plenty of space for a stop--then there's plenty of county land to work with for a stop on Billingsley by Randolph Road Park--then a stop somewhere along Randolph in Elizabeth, east or west of Novant Presbyterian, where it could then go back uptown through the Trade tunnel, to the Gateway Station. 

It's ambitious, but if Charlotte keeps growing in population and importance, at its current pace, planning for something like this to *follow* both the Blue Line extensions and the Silver Line, sometime in the 2030s or even '40s, isn't totally ridiculous.  Charlotte, by that time, may be in the actual top 10 of most populous American cities. And I still don't see a realistic way of putting surface area rail continuously through the "wedge." 

[Scribe]

24 minutes ago, ertley said:

planning for something like this to *follow* both the Blue Line extensions and the Silver Line, sometime in the 2030s or even '40s, isn't totally ridiculous.

is vastly different from (emphasis mine)

1 hour ago, orulz said:

Charlotte is light-years away

or...

1 hour ago, orulz said:

South Park-CLT is likely not a good route for rail any time this century

 

[orulz]

Yes, lets wait until everything is built out before we lock in the land to run the line, because that worked so well for every other major metro. Circumferential lines should be treated like glue for the larger transit system (for instance fare's should not be tied to a line but to starting/ending points), with proper planning and frequency a circumferential line is a great option. The problem with transit planners is they are all stuck in the past, too afraid to think outside their traditional transit planning box.

 

 

Transit planners work in the real world and have to deal with things like cost effectiveness. Charlotte would probably need at least a half dozen, probably more new radial lines from outer neighborhoods to uptown before a circumferential line would be the next highest ridership option. The sheer number of people and jobs that can be reached within walking distance of uptown is and always will be way, way more than anywhere else in town, and building a line where riders have to transfer to get there is folly, at this point.

 

 

Charlotte's CBD is so dense from a jobs perspective (and continuing to become more dense) that the city should take full advantage of that, providing rail access for *everybody* to get to uptown, and then continuing to add more density along those lines, before thinking about building rail lines to tie together outer neighborhoods where the density pales in comparison.

 

 

 

 

[thenewkage95]

Meanwhile East Charlotte along the Independence corridor is still waiting for its chance at light rail and is a relatively dense area of town. I agree that SouthPark and Ballantyne could benefit from light rail, but I think we need to prioritize as a city.

[tozmervo]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

If the city was smart they would have developed a 100 year transportation plan in conjunction with the UDO.

Even the best plans tend to be useless after about 10 years. We might not even need transportation in a 100 years when we join the hive mind. 

[Seaboard Fellow]

3 hours ago, thenewkage95 said:

Meanwhile East Charlotte along the Independence corridor is still waiting for its chance at light rail and is a relatively dense area of town. I agree that SouthPark and Ballantyne could benefit from light rail, but I think we need to prioritize as a city.

Great point,  I would like to see a spur off of the Silver Line to Eastland via Albemarle Road. It would be a relatively short spur that provides a major positive impact on development and opportunity in East Charlotte.  Ofcourse this spur would be in addition to South Park and Ballantyne connections via the Blue Line  

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Seaboard Fellow

[DH17]

How about 2-car spurs to South Park and Ballantyne with the main blue line bumped up to 3-4 cars? Could have 2-car "express" trains from Ballantyne and South Park up to South End and Uptown as well as the "interchange" stations. They would stop at all of the spur stations but only stop 4-5 times on the way to Uptown once on the main line.

 

Edit: We could even call the spurs their own separate lines in order to avoid confusing people. They would just use the BL tracks and run less frequently in order to not overwhelm traffic in South End. The new 3-4 BL trains would mean no increase in frequency required for the BL.

Edited June 12, 2019 by DH17

[southslider]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:39 PM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Jacksonville actually has light rail.

A downtown people mover

[CLT>]

Charlotte's long range transit plan from 1977 actually proposed transit to the airport and SouthPark, as well as what is basically BRT to UNCC and on the independence corridor. The plan to SouthPark had it running as an elevated track along Little Sugar Creek so as not to have to purchase too much land for ROW.

[SgtCampsalot]

8 hours ago, CLT> said:

Charlotte's long range transit plan from 1977 actually proposed transit to the airport and SouthPark, as well as what is basically BRT to UNCC and on the independence corridor. The plan to SouthPark had it running as an elevated track along Little Sugar Creek so as not to have to purchase too much land for ROW.

What a find! Boy, how feasible would that South Park ROW down LSC be today? Granted back in that era they didn't care about water quality or watersheds. What would construction look like today?

I would personally be fine with it and the years of closing the Greenway for construction to get that connection. The question would then be the opinions of thr affluent homeowners along the route (, which, most already existed in the 70s).

[kermit]

On 6/12/2019 at 8:57 AM, SgtCampsalot said:

What a find! Boy, how feasible would that South Park ROW down LSC be today? Granted back in that era they didn't care about water quality or watersheds. What would construction look like today?

Wuppertal Germany

(this is a 100+ year old transit system so I am not really suggesting that a South Park route should look like this. Merely that its possible)

Edited June 13, 2019 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

On 6/11/2019 at 10:57 AM, orulz said:

A branch from the Blue Line is a good way to serve SP. IMO this is way more important than an extension to Ballantyne. People on here seem to prefer a route that covers Park Rd SC but that would probably require a crazy expensive tunnel. Nice thought but not realistic, IMO. The hundreds of millions that it would cost to build such a tunnel would be much better spent on other things like commuter/regional rail.

 

I think a surface route along Tyvola is much more realistic - it would be possible with a reasonable number of residential property impacts: 15-20. Flyovers for South Blvd and Park Rd.

 

 

Why and where would tunnels be required?   Tyvola has such a huge traffic volume. Wouldn't that be crazy expensive too? 

[orulz]

Why and where would tunnels be required?   Tyvola has such a huge traffic volume. Wouldn't that be crazy expensive too? 

You could widen Tyvola enough to put a light rail line in the median by buying out just north of a dozen houses facing the street. The impacts of doing so on Woolawn or Scaleybark would be much larger.

[CLT>]

On 6/12/2019 at 8:57 AM, SgtCampsalot said:

What a find! Boy, how feasible would that South Park ROW down LSC be today? Granted back in that era they didn't care about water quality or watersheds. What would construction look like today?

I would personally be fine with it and the years of closing the Greenway for construction to get that connection. The question would then be the opinions of thr affluent homeowners along the route (, which, most already existed in the 70s).

I'll pull out some more images from some of the planning documents from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Charlotte was pretty progressive in its thinking back then, too bad more of their ideas weren't implemented.

If you're ever uptown and bored, there is a treasure trove of old plans from yesteryear in the Robinson-Spangler Carolina Room at the Main Library. But shockingly any documents since the 90s aren't there. You have to request them from the city who will send you a PDF.

[TheMightyBK]

I think a new LR line connecting SP, Park Rd, CMC, CPCC to either the silver line in Plaza/Midwood or blue line in NoDa will eventually make sense.  Might actually make sense now.