CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

4 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Each time the lanes get delayed, CATS has to push back the bus route changes to the next schedule change cycle, which is now February. They'll be able to make minor en-route changes, but not the full switch that adds a route to exit 23 and takes the busses in on Church St instead of Trade. They have to allow several weeks to communicate the route changes to passengers, prepare new signage, etc. With the moving target of an open date there's only so much prep they can do. 

I wasn't blaming CATS. At least this delay.

[kermit]

and speaking of commuter rail: Signalling technology is being installed in Paris to get their regional rail (RER)  to run trains to 108 second frequencies (a heavy rail passenger train will be able to arrive at a station every minute and 48 seconds on the same track!).

I am not suggesting the same frequencies are possible on shared freight tracks, but this news give us some indication of how much unused rail capacity we have here for commuter rail.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction-and-rolling-stock/paris-rer-ng-design-unveiled/46600.article

Quote

adding that the Nexteo moving-block signalling would allow operation at headways of just 108 sec on the RER network, ‘preparing for the future of autonomous trains’.

[London runs Victoria line trains every 90 seconds at peak but the tube is better acceleration-breaking than heavy rail]

Edited October 22, 2019 by kermit

[KJHburg]

In Dallas riding DART today the nations largest light rail system.  I have used DART now 3 rides in the last 6 years and have been ask for proof of ticket 2x.  Much higher rate than Charlotte.  Lot more security with visible transit police in the parking lots and on the platforms.  They have DFW airport connected by light rail (and commuter rail) and remember their airport and ours is a large employment hub.  Plus their medical center with 2 larges hospitals has a stop and I saw lots of people coming and going at that station.  Thought it was a smooth ride until like LYNX the train slammed on its break as there were too many trains on the downtown section.  anyway their system is very extensive and is a model for any city.   Last photo shows how 4 lines all converge into a single line downtown.  

Also a direct DART light rail connection to TRE which is the Texas Rail Express commuter rail to further out suburbs and Ft Worth.  

Edited October 22, 2019 by KJHburg

[kermit]

I haven't read the study (and its not clear if there even is one) but if this is true it puts the streetcar in a slightly different light. It also tells us that higher frequency LRT is our easiest way to higher ridership. This was very clear when I waited for a train at noon today. 15 minutes mid day is BS.

 

 

[ajfunder]

Is the Charlotte City Council really struggling to approve funding to move the Silver Line's design forward? This is the critical step to get the project rolling towards FTA funding. I saw they delayed voting on the study but should we be concerned that the money actually has a chance of not being approved?

 

I live in Colorado now so I'm a little removed from Charlotte's current city council's voting tendencies. 

[kermit]

8 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Is the Charlotte City Council really struggling to approve funding to move the Silver Line's design forward? This is the critical step to get the project rolling towards FTA funding. I saw they delayed voting on the study but should we be concerned that the money actually has a chance of not being approved?

 

I live in Colorado now so I'm a little removed from Charlotte's current city council's voting tendencies. 

Nah, I don’t think they are looking for reasons not to fund design work, but (IMO) they do appear to be pushing back on CATS’ lack of transparency on funding options. Lewis has been talking about a big bang since he arrived but has offered virtually no information on how it would be funded; so council is nervous they are going to spend $50 million on design work only to be told that a property tax hike is the only option. They just need some cover on the construction funding question. The two week delay on the vote is so council can see what happens with the local option sales tax vote on arts next week (if it passes then there will be no additional sales tax money for CATS). There will be another delay if the arts tax passes.

To be fair, its not really CATS’ job to generate their own funding, the council could have been much more proactive identifying funding sources but they buried their heads in the sand (while simultaneously being very proactive with Panthers / MLS needs)

[southslider]

No need to blame the Arts for filling the void left wide open for far too long by Lewis.

[King of the Queen City]

We need to invest in both arts and transit. One shouldn’t come at the expense of the other.

[Windsurfer]

On 10/22/2019 at 7:42 AM, KJHburg said:

In Dallas riding DART today the nations largest light rail system.  I have used DART now 3 rides in the last 6 years and have been ask for proof of ticket 2x.  Much higher rate than Charlotte.  Lot more security with visible transit police in the parking lots and on the platforms.  They have DFW airport connected by light rail (and commuter rail) and remember their airport and ours is a large employment hub.  Plus their medical center with 2 larges hospitals has a stop and I saw lots of people coming and going at that station.  Thought it was a smooth ride until like LYNX the train slammed on its break as there were too many trains on the downtown section.  anyway their system is very extensive and is a model for any city.   Last photo shows how 4 lines all converge into a single line downtown.  

Also a direct DART light rail connection to TRE which is the Texas Rail Express commuter rail to further out suburbs and Ft Worth.  

Can that security guard sell you a ticket?  Looks like with that gadget on his hip he might be able.  That's what I really enjoyed while traveling on trains in South America. You didn't feel the pressure you do here waiting for the vending machine to spit out your ticket while the train starts to depart.

[kermit]

27 minutes ago, King of the Queen City said:

We need to invest in both arts and transit. One shouldn’t come at the expense of the other.

I agree, but here we are....

[ajfunder]

1 hour ago, Windsurfer said:

Can that security guard sell you a ticket?  Looks like with that gadget on his hip he might be able.  That's what I really enjoyed while traveling on trains in South America. You didn't feel the pressure you do here waiting for the vending machine to spit out your ticket while the train starts to depart.

If he is anything like the RTD cops (I assume he is) that gadget does indeed print tickets but not the good kind lol.

[thenewkage95]

Didn’t CATS just finish a Silver Line study last year or the year before? I explicitly remember them discussing a tunnel under uptown. Why do we need another study? Also why does a simple study cost $50 million? This isn’t rocket science...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kermit]

10 hours ago, thenewkage95 said:

Didn’t CATS just finish a Silver Line study last year or the year before? I explicitly remember them discussing a tunnel under uptown. Why do we need another study? Also why does a simple study cost $50 million? This isn’t rocket science...

That study was done to determine the locally preferred route, the next study is the preliminary engineering for the route. It will get the design of bridges, crossings, stations etc. up to 60% complete -- enough design work that construction cost estimates can be developed. Its not rocket science, but it is a crap-ton of civil engineering.

TLDR: The new study serves a completely different purpose.

Edited November 1, 2019 by kermit

[thenewkage95]

That student was done to determine the locally preferred route, the next study is the preliminary engineering for the route. It will get the design of bridges, crossings, stations etc. up to 60% complete -- enough design work that construction cost estimates can be developed. Its not rocket science, but it is a crap-ton of civil engineering.
TLDR: The new study serves a completely different purpose.

I understand, but $50 million worth??? I understand the importance of civil engineering, but shouldn’t it be closer to $5 million? I just can’t wrap my head around that number. $50 million big ones and not one bit of track has even been laid yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

I understand, but $50 million worth??? I understand the importance of civil engineering, but shouldn’t it be closer to $5 million? I just can’t wrap my head around that number. $50 million big ones and not one bit of track has even been laid yet.

Here ya go: https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/research/RNAProjDocs/2010-10FinalReport.pdf

 

[thenewkage95]

Here ya go: https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/research/RNAProjDocs/2010-10FinalReport.pdf
 

So what this is saying (I’m no civil engineer) is that preliminary design and planning is one of the more costly parts of the process? Does this $50mill come out of the $3-4billion price tag for the entire project?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kermit]

5 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

So what this is saying (I’m no civil engineer) is that preliminary design and planning is one of the more costly parts of the process? Does this $50mill come out of the $3-4billion price tag for the entire project?

Sorta. I believe the $50 million will count as part of the local contribution to the project and thus will trigger a federal match based on the old rules (assuming the FFGA is reached).

[southslider]

Once paid an architect $5K just to re-label and re-print plans they already had on file.  $5M would likely just get you conceptual (or very little) engineering. $50M should cover more preliminary engineering all the way from Matthews to Belmont, including through (or really skirting) Uptown.  Both the first Blue Line and its extension were each about half as long as the entire Silver Line.

[thenewkage95]

Once paid an architect $5K just to re-label and re-print plans they already had on file.  $5M would likely just get you conceptual (or very little) engineering. $50M should cover more preliminary engineering all the way from Matthews to Belmont, including through (or really skirting) Uptown.  Both the first Blue Line and its extension were each about half as long as the entire Silver Line.

At this point we should just lay down toy tracks and use minecarts to push ourselves along. It’d be cheaper. Thanks for putting the scale of money into perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[southslider]

1 minute ago, thenewkage95 said:

At this point we should just lay down toy tracks and use minecarts to push ourselves along. It’d be cheaper. Thanks for putting the scale of money into perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or just run more buses all-day on the busway between Uptown and Matthews (plus a branch out Albemarle Rd). If it weren't closed forever to build just a half-mile extension of streetcar over Independence. At least new bus lanes are coming to Uptown.

[Scribe]

18 hours ago, thenewkage95 said:

I understand, but $50 million worth???

Yes, civil engineering is always worth it!

There is a lot of detail that goes into this ... it is not just a simple alignment and station design.

[XRZ.ME]

In Oct MTC meeting minutes
blue line ridership up 15% YoY and we have stable 30K for workday

Also Charlotte motor speedway is supporting blue line extension extension through 29


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[southslider]

7 minutes ago, XRZ.ME said:

Also Charlotte motor speedway is supporting blue line extension extension through 29

CMS has always supported extending LYNX, just in advocacy, not significant funding.  Unless they put money where their mouth is, their "support" isn't really that.

[HopHead]

I've wanted them to extend the light rail up to the PNC Pavilion/Verizon Wireless Amphitheater, etc for the longest time. Driving in and out of the amphitheater for a concert is like going through the 7th circle of hell. It's gotten to the point where I only go there now for a band I really want to see. 

[kermit]

I know the silver line uptown tunnel decision has been made, but its worth point out that we are starting to see some US early vintage LRT systems look at retrofitting tunnels in order to meet downtown capacity needs. Dallas has hit a capacity crunch where lines overlap in their West End to Arts District zone and now Portland is looking at a tunnel to relieve capacity constrains on Steel Bridge and speed trips through downtown. Preliminary analysis on the Portland tunnel is $3-$4.5 billion for 3.5 miles through downtown.

While I am not convinced that a tunnel was absolutely necessary for the Silver Line (my choice would have been closing a street through the center of town for ROW), I think we should keep in mind that we may regret the ‘rail-light’ choices we made in 20 years. 

https://www.oregonmetro.gov/sites/default/files/2019/10/25/MAX Tunnel Study Findings.pdf