CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

51 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

It would be interesting to see if light rail stimulates ridership significantly over the Sprinter Bus. For example, it the Sprinter Bus has 1,000 passengers per day, would light rail increase ridership to 6,000 to the airport or would we build something for billions of dollars to just double ridership to 2,000 per day? Some airport stations are rather successful, but many have so - so ridership and if the line didn't route through commuter suburbs as well, the line would likely be considered a failure. The good thing about Charlotte's line is it could pick up commuter riders in West Charlotte to justify the low # of boardings at the airport itself (I'd estimate we end up with a # of boardings similar to Phoenix or Portland at the airport).

Some average daily boardings at rail stations for airports around the country:
Phoenix: 1,900 per day
Portland: 2,461 per day
San Francisco BART: 6,587 per day
DFW Airport: 900 per day
SEPTA Airport Line in Philadelphia: 6,800 per day (#'s include suburban stations as well)
San Diego Middletown/Airport: 724 per day
Newark Airport: 4,250 per day (station has 2 NJ Transit lines and 2 Amtrak lines)
 

An airport stop will clearly be an insufficient anchor to the line -- lots of locals think they will ride LRT to the airport, but their twice a year patronage is not enough to drive ridership to reasonable levels. The lack of proximity between the Silver Line and Uptown hotels is also a problem.  Having said that, rail to CLT will certainly do better than the Sprinter and should easily double ridership. The Sprinter is largely invisible to visitors, the lack of off board payment further discourages them from using it. Finally, the Venn Diagram of Charlotte resident's willing to take transit to the airport and folks who are happy to get a bus at CTC has virtually no overlap.

Unfortunately the Western portion of the Silver Line does not do a great job of capturing riders between uptown and the airport, that is a pretty low-density area as well.  If sub 30 minute travel times between 485 and uptown are possible a park and ride and Belmont stop will generate the bulk of the West Line ridership

[kermit]

So where is our real time tracking????

 

[tozmervo]

Pending final approval, the new North Meck bus system will go into affect in February. They are looking at rebranding as "Metrorapid" to help emphasize the changes and draw new ridership. 77x will serve Davidson and Cornelius, getting into the express lanes at exit 28. A new rush hour-only village rider will serve suburban Davidson to bring riders to the college and 77x stops. Route 48x will be revised to serve just exit 25 . New route 63x will be revised to serve the exit 23 area .area and use the Hamright Rd direct connect. 53x will be revised to use the Lakeview toll direct connect. All routes will come into uptown on the new Brookshire toll connect and come down Church and back up College (they currently come in on Trade.)

Separately, increased frequencies are proposed for Sprinter, Monroe road, Tuckaseegee, and South Tryon routes.

Edited November 13, 2019 by tozmervo
Got 48 and 63 backwards

[videtur quam contuor]

This is our Red Line now.

[CLT>]

58 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Pending final approval, the new North Meck bus system will go into affect in February. They are looking at rebranding as "Metrorapid" to help emphasize the changes and draw new ridership. 77x will serve Davidson and Cornelius, getting into the express lanes at exit 28. A new rush hour-only village rider will serve suburban Davidson to bring riders to the college and 77x stops. Route 48x will be revised to serve just exit 25 . New route 63x will be revised to serve the exit 23 area .area and use the Hamright Rd direct connect. 53x will be revised to use the Lakeview toll direct connect. All routes will come into uptown on the new Brookshire toll connect and come down Church and back up College (they currently come in on Trade.)

Separately, increased frequencies are proposed for Sprinter, Monroe road, Tuckaseegee, and South Tryon routes.

Is it me or does CATS already have too many 'brands?'
-Lynx
-CityLynx
-Sprinter
-Express
-Village Rider
and Now 'Metrorapid'

Would be easier to give the rail lines colors only, CATS Blue Line, Gold Line etc. Most people riding don't know the difference between a Lynx and a CityLynx, plus lots of visitors think the transit system is called Lynx. 

 

[KJHburg]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

An airport stop will clearly be an insufficient anchor to the line -- lots of locals think they will ride LRT to the airport, but their twice a year patronage is not enough to drive ridership to reasonable levels. The lack of proximity between the Silver Line and Uptown hotels is also a problem.  Having said that, rail to CLT will certainly do better than the Sprinter and should easily double ridership. The Sprinter is largely invisible to visitors, the lack of off board payment further discourages them from using it. Finally, the Venn Diagram of Charlotte resident's willing to take transit to the airport and folks who are happy to get a bus at CTC has virtually no overlap.

Unfortunately the Western portion of the Silver Line does not do a great job of capturing riders between uptown and the airport, that is a pretty low-density area as well.  If sub 30 minute travel times between 485 and uptown are possible a park and ride and Belmont stop will generate the bulk of the West Line ridership

But you forget the airport employs over 15,000+  people it is an employment hub.  I think some people will take a train to and from uptown  but I guess the real reason for an airport stop would be the employees.  

[15895]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

But you forget the airport employs over 15,000+  people it is an employment hub.  I think some people will take a train to and from uptown  but I guess the real reason for an airport stop would be the employees.  

let’s take DC and Dallas. Both huge metros and CSA’s. 

For DC, DCA airport is the 46th busiest station of 91 with around 5k riders a day. while a smaller employment base, there’s many more passengers that aren’t connecting than CLT.  Probably offsets the employee difference. And that’s in a 9.7 million CSA with great mass transit. 

 

DFW light rail had 900 hoardings per day. This airport is overall much larger than CLT, including much larger workforce. 
 

this map of busiest stations. Looks like DFW is middle of the pack and much smaller than the terminus of the other Lines

 

 

it just seems to me, hitting major suburbs like Matthews is going to be a much larger trip generator than our airport. I think DFW is actually an ominous sign for CLT ridership. Dallas is probably reflective of what charlottes busier stations would be like. IMO. 
 

maybe the fact that clt is closer helps, but maybe it doesn’t? In any event, I still don’t see it generating much trips to be prioritized over other sections of the county 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by AirNostrumMAD

[tozmervo]

5 hours ago, CLT> said:

Is it me or does CATS already have too many 'brands?'
-Lynx
-CityLynx
-Sprinter
-Express
-Village Rider
and Now 'Metrorapid'

Would be easier to give the rail lines colors only, CATS Blue Line, Gold Line etc. Most people riding don't know the difference between a Lynx and a CityLynx, plus lots of visitors think the transit system is called Lynx. 

I think it's a valid question, though I would argue that no one uses the term "village rider" except to distinguish that bus service on the ridership report. 

I would also suggest, anecdotally, that I was unprepared and confused when I got to Boston Logan and the silver line turned out to be BRT

[King of the Queen City]

I think some of you are underestimating ridership to and from the airport. I think the section of the silver line going up Wilkinson could be operational a bit quicker than the section along Independence. This is an opportunity to revitalize the main entryway into the city for those coming in from the airport. Even if they travel Uptown from the airport via car they will be traveling down Wilkinson and it will become obvious that rail is an option for them in the future.  The constantly late and stuck in traffic Sprinter bus will no longer be necessary.  If the line extends on to Belmont then it will also serve Amazon and the River District. Gaston County seems very enthusiastic to support the project as well. This is why I say to go ahead and give this section the green light. I believe the Matthews section is also very important but Independence presents its own problems for pedestrian friendly development (though a connection to Bojangles’ Coliseum and Ovens Auditorium would be very nice). I want to see the whole thing operational by 2030, but I want to see the Airport section fast tracked to 2025.

[JacksonH]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

For DC, DCA airport is the 46th busiest station of 91 with around 5k riders a day. while a smaller employment base, there’s many more passengers that aren’t connecting than CLT.  Probably offsets the employee difference. And that’s in a 9.7 million CSA with great mass transit. 

And I'm forever grateful that there is a metro stop at DCA.  I go to DC a lot and usually fly into DCA.  And when I do, I ALWAYS take metro to and from the airport.  Anywhere I go that has a train from the airport, that's my first option.  I've had recent trips to Denver, Boston, London, and Paris, and every one of them I got to and from the airport via a metro train.  It seemed like there were plenty other people doing the same.  I hope this remains a priority for Charlotte.  

21 minutes ago, King of the Queen City said:

 Even if they travel Uptown from the airport via car they will be traveling down Wilkinson and it will become obvious that rail is an option for them in the future.  The constantly late and stuck in traffic Sprinter bus will no longer be necessary. 

I was in Charlotte a few weeks ago, and driving down Wilkinson to the airport I went into panic mode when I came upon that traffic.  I had no idea it would be that bad and it almost made me late getting to the airport.  PLEASE let there be a train in the future.

[Yeahdoug]

I think if they do the gateway area right it could boost ridership a lot. Make it a place where you want to stay with a few nice hotels, nice restaurants, etc.. as uptown density pushes out that direction.  People will be much more likely to take the silver line if you end up really close to where you are going to stay. Otherwise you’d just hop in a 12 dollar Uber that will take you right to where you are going. Our airport being fairly close to downtown hurts the silver line potential. Being cheap is not enough. Needs to be at least as convenient , if not more than ride sharing. If you wanted to get to southend via LR from the airport you’d be making 2 transfers, which very few people are willing to do. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Yeahdoug

[15895]

9 hours ago, King of the Queen City said:

I think some of you are underestimating ridership to and from the airport. I think the section of the silver line going up Wilkinson could be operational a bit quicker than the section along Independence. This is an opportunity to revitalize the main entryway into the city for those coming in from the airport. Even if they travel Uptown from the airport via car they will be traveling down Wilkinson and it will become obvious that rail is an option for them in the future.  The constantly late and stuck in traffic Sprinter bus will no longer be necessary.  If the line extends on to Belmont then it will also serve Amazon and the River District. Gaston County seems very enthusiastic to support the project as well. This is why I say to go ahead and give this section the green light. I believe the Matthews section is also very important but Independence presents its own problems for pedestrian friendly development (though a connection to Bojangles’ Coliseum and Ovens Auditorium would be very nice). I want to see the whole thing operational by 2030, but I want to see the Airport section fast tracked to 2025.

Assuming that there is a ton of demand to the airport (which I still think there isn’t. The airport is mostly connecting traffic and the workers probably make enough to have a car but not to live in transit friendly hoods to make ridership that spectacula) 

 

CATS obviously seems like they will not connect the blue line and silver line in the most optimal way. Isn’t the plan like. A block or 2 away? Waiting on a train, walking a block or so then waiting on the next. Yeah. Just drive me along 485 and drop me off at the front door. 
 

Ironically. I think a line to Matthews would actually improve airport ridership. Because it sure isn’t going to get any help from the blue line. 

 

Also, looking at your Map.  The green portion just doesn't seem like there would be much traffic generated outside of whatever Gaston musters up.

Edited November 14, 2019 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT>]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

Also, looking at your Map.  The green portion just doesn't seem like there would be much traffic generated outside of whatever Gaston musters up.

Keep in mind that for all practical purposes CATS is an economic development tool, not a true transit agency. Imagine the area between uptown and the Airport as TOD, and that by 2030 the land values along the Blue Line will be astronomical. We should expect to see the kind of development we've seen in SouthEnd and north of Uptown along Wilkinson (and especially around CLT's 'front door.') If anything, the parcels out there tend to be larger. So the traffic will likely come from the new development along the silver line. Also Uber and Lyft will likely be bankrupt or charge true costs which will make them out of most people's reach. And I'll put a pint of beer on the line that we won't have any self driving cars running around town in 2030 either. All that is where I think the ridership will come from.

[JacksonH]

On 11/14/2019 at 6:16 AM, Yeahdoug said:

I think if they do the gateway area right it could boost ridership a lot. Make it a place where you want to stay with a few nice hotels, nice restaurants, etc.. as uptown density pushes out that direction.  People will be much more likely to take the silver line if you end up really close to where you are going to stay. Otherwise you’d just hop in a 12 dollar Uber that will take you right to where you are going. Our airport being fairly close to downtown hurts the silver line potential. Being cheap is not enough. Needs to be at least as convenient , if not more than ride sharing. If you wanted to get to southend via LR from the airport you’d be making 2 transfers, which very few people are willing to do. 

But the thing is, the Silver Line will eventually become the more convenient option.   As I mentioned above, I came close to not getting to the airport on time due to all the traffic on Wilkinson Blvd.  It did not used to be that way.   As development continues to grow in West Charlotte (and it will), there will be more and more cars along there.  And as that happens, Uber will not be the magic answer, unless they develop a flying car with designated air space right of way to get to the airport, which is highly unlikely.  So in the future the quickest way to get to the airport will be by zooming past all that traffic (including Uber drivers) on the Silver Line.

[Mgelbach]

I don’t know if this is the right thread, but I just received a resining notice in the mail for areas around the light rail stations

[KJHburg]

the massive rezoning around transit stations passed today from the top city planning director   From the twitter tonight

Taiwo Jaiyeoba

1/2 Tonight, our City Council took a huge step towards changing the transcape (transit landscape) around our Blue Line light rail stations. A great opportunity to maximize the investments in our transit system while expanding our capacity to deliver more affordable housing units.

Taiwo Jaiyeoba

2/2 Not many cities with light rail in the United States can boast of rezoning more than 1,500 acres of land around their transit stations. I’m really proud of our community, advisory group, commission and council. So proud of our awesome staff for getting us here. Thank you!

[Hushpuppy321]

12 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

the massive rezoning around transit stations passed today from the top city planning director   From the twitter tonight

Taiwo Jaiyeoba

1/2 Tonight, our City Council took a huge step towards changing the transcape (transit landscape) around our Blue Line light rail stations. A great opportunity to maximize the investments in our transit system while expanding our capacity to deliver more affordable housing units.

Taiwo Jaiyeoba

2/2 Not many cities with light rail in the United States can boast of rezoning more than 1,500 acres of land around their transit stations. I’m really proud of our community, advisory group, commission and council. So proud of our awesome staff for getting us here. Thank you!

I’ve always been curious about how our peer Cities like Denver (FasTracs) and Atlanta (Heavy Rail MARTA) fixed Line Transit in their Cities have spurred growth.  Also Phoenix made great investments towards Lightrail.  I wonder if any of these cities have conducted mass rezonings to support TOD?  I’ll do some research.  

[kermit]

1 minute ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I’ve always been curious about how our peer Cities like Denver (FasTracs) and Atlanta (Heavy Rail MARTA) fixed Line Transit in their Cities have spurred growth.  Also Phoenix made great investments towards Lightrail.  I wonder if any of these cities have conducted mass rezonings to support TOD?  I’ll do some research.  

Can't speak to Denver or Phoenix but MARTA generated virtually no growth until the past 5-10 years. Atlanta did no rezoning around station areas, stations were massive and almost always had huge parking lots and MARTA opened with all investment in Southern cities was in the distant burbs rather than the city.

This story changed a bit with the movement of corp HQs into town that explicitly said they wanted transit access to the airport and to give their employees options for avoiding the traffic (e.g. Mercedes). Ironically, Atlanta is seeing huge amounts of TOD around the Beltline trail, which does not (yet) have any transit.

TLDR: MARTA was built 25 years too early to generate any TOD. We had MUCH better timing on the Blue Line but waiting 10-12 years for the Silver Line is going to take a bunch of air out of its steel wheels.

[thenewkage95]

Can't speak to Denver or Phoenix but MARTA generated virtually no growth until the past 5-10 years. Atlanta did no rezoning around station areas, stations were massive and almost always had huge parking lots and MARTA opened with all investment in Southern cities was in the distant burbs rather than the city.
This story changed a bit with the movement of corp HQs into town that explicitly said they wanted transit access to the airport and to give their employees options for avoiding the traffic (e.g. Mercedes). Ironically, Atlanta is seeing huge amounts of TOD around the Beltline trail, which does not (yet) have any transit.
TLDR: MARTA was built 25 years too early to generate any TOD. We had MUCH better timing on the Blue Line but waiting 10-12 years for the Silver Line is going to take a bunch of air out of its steel wheels.

Any idea why it has taken 12 years for this specific rezoning? I feel it could have been done at least 5 years ago.


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[tozmervo]

4 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

Any idea why it has taken 12 years for this specific rezoning? I feel it could have been done at least 5 years ago.


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Because it boils down to a landowner being told the rules are changing for the land they purchased under a different set of rules - not an act to be taken lightly. Times hundreds of landowners.

[thenewkage95]

Because it boils down to a landowner being told the rules are changing for the land they purchased under a different set of rules - not an act to be taken lightly. Times hundreds of landowners.

Please forgive me. I’m not knowledgeable about all of this so I may come off as naïve, but if an existing owner’s property is rezoned, wouldn’t that only affect them if they decide to tear their existing establishment down and build another?


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[Nick2]

1 hour ago, thenewkage95 said:

Please forgive me. I’m not knowledgeable about all of this so I may come off as naïve, but if an existing owner’s property is rezoned, wouldn’t that only affect them if they decide to tear their existing establishment down and build another?


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It also affects their property value and what can be built nextdoor. So single family homes might not like having the possibility of having a 500 unit super block apartment building or a high rise floor office building beside them. 

NIMBYism and all that jazz.

[Hushpuppy321]

But also the Planning Director vacancy added to the delay.  The City wanted to Establish/Update it’s TOD Regulations as well as its Vision Plan.  I think what they’ve done is wonderful but I too wish it had been done earlier.   

I don’t think Transit Oriented Development will be exhausted by the time the SilverLine Opens around 2029/2030 but rather I expect the North-South Corridor to be fully mature by then.  Development will then have no choice but to spill Eastward and Westward in Charlotte.  I am hoping for a few Spur Lines eventually off the Blue and Silver Lines to better serve the city but I guess I’ll be too old to ride the rails then.

Just wish we had a ‘Fast Tracs’ type of Plan back when the feds gave significant funding.  

[KJHburg]

10 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I’ve always been curious about how our peer Cities like Denver (FasTracs) and Atlanta (Heavy Rail MARTA) fixed Line Transit in their Cities have spurred growth.  Also Phoenix made great investments towards Lightrail.  I wonder if any of these cities have conducted mass rezonings to support TOD?  I’ll do some research.  

I can speak of Dallas and Atlanta.  As Kermit said ATL has only recently had a lot of transit oriented developed with MARTA for years and years before it really changed nothing.  But now it has.

Better example would be Dallas with DART there is intense development at most of their stations very much like Charlotte has become.  Not sure if it was zoning changes or what but it happening there.   But the movement back into the urban areas with lots of growth concentrated around transit lines for sure.   First 2 photos from DART train in Dallas I took in October and aerial from the area where the DART line runs slightly NW  of downtown. 

[XRZ.ME]

Is union county serious about silver line into stallings and indian trail?


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