CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

9 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

Is union county serious about silver line into stallings and indian trail?

Union and Gaston are both very serious about the need for a rail connection to uptown, AT THIS TIME. Unfortunately, neither county has begun to explore how to pay for their portion of the cost (and to be fair, Mecklenburg hasn’t had that conversation either) so there will be virtually no political opposition to the extensions until the local cost is known.

My gut says that the local political desire for the Silver Line is much stronger in Gaston than it is in Union. I would not be surprised to see Union say ‘never mind’ when they see costs north of $100 million for their portion.  Based on the stub-end station(s) that Union has proposed I can also imagine the ridership models may not justify them (and that may mean they would not get any federal funding). 

All of the above is conjecture and my brain does not conjecturate well before 11am.

Edited November 20, 2019 by kermit

[Third Strike]

I’m I wrong in thinking that the city should prioritize a Silver Line spur out east along Albemarle Road, versus expanding the light rail into Union or further in Gaston beyond Belmont? Not that I’m against the latter, it just seems like an overlooked corridor that should be strongly considered, especially since the current Route 9 has one of the highest ridership numbers in the system. The region also has plans of submitting to the upcoming STIP for upgrading Albemarle Road from Central to I-485. Seems like a good opportunity to work with the NCDOT to preserve ROW along the the middle of the road for future rail. 
 

Same deal with a spur to SouthPark or maybe even a Blue Line spur off onto South Tryon, out to Ayrsley and Rivergate in Steele Creek. I personally think BRT should be considered first for US 74 in Gaston from Belmont to Gastonia, and BRT from CPCC in Matthews to Monroe for Union County along US 74. 

[slipperypete]

4 hours ago, Third Strike said:

prioritize a Silver Line spur out east along Albemarle Road

That would be really great. Could provide a park and ride lot out near 485, upgrade to a deck or two once the north end blue line decks are hitting capacity.  It could also connect to the Gold line at Albemarle and Central - providing a good connection further east for residents along the Central corridor. 

What about later on having service along Albemarle Rd to Sharon Amity and Sharon Rd, to Southpark, then on to intersect the Blue line at Tyvola.  That would link Eastland, Cotswold and Southpark areas, as well as linking SW/W and E Charlotte  to jobs in those areas in addition to uptown. Likely would face a good bit of political opposition on that route though. And very spendy property acquisition. 

[King of the Queen City]

Here are a couple concepts for a red light rail line to Northlake Mall  in case Norfolk Stubborn never cooperates for a commuter line. One would briefly share tracks with the silver line before branching off and following Statesville Ave/Rd. The other is a spur off of the blue line at Sugar Creek Road that would cross through Griffith Lakes to meet up with W.T. Harris at Old Statesville Road. Not sure how feasible either would be, but it’s fun to play with. Gold line in this concept also goes from Rosa Parks to Eastland, preferably in dedicated lanes with less frequent stops after leaving Uptown.

[JacksonH]

Can someone explain this statement from the WBTV article in the link below?  

"A spokesperson for CATS says the airport planning is final because 'the Federal Aviation Administration’s height restrictions along flight paths limit the alignment’s ability to enter the terminal directly'.”

https://www.wbtv.com/2019/11/21/former-cats-ceo-criticizes-route-chosen-lynx-silver-line/

How do height restrictions affect a rail pathway that's on the ground?  Or is the suggestion that building the rail to the airport would perhaps require bridges that would exceed the FAA height limit?  Or maybe would require the use of cranes?  I'm just not understanding the statement.  Whatever they do, they're going to have to make it super easy to transfer from the Silver Line station to the "airport conveyance."  And that conveyance must be along a direct route dedicated only to this conveyance with no interaction with traffic because if people, for example, have to get on a bus and that bus gets caught up in airport traffic, then that totally defeats the purpose of using the Silver Line to get to the airport.

[LKN704]

I seem to recall that LA ran into a similar issue when planning their Green Line in the 1990s IIRC (it might have been some other city so, I can't remember). It could be an elevated guideway that could be in the way, or it could be the overhead catenary system.

I agree though that the airport better not be cheap and simply use a slow dinky shuttle bus connecting the terminal to the station, which could impact ridership. An APM operating in its own ROW is the only way to go. 

[DEnd]

So the Boring Company has started tunneling on the Las Vegas Convention Center People Mover.  This is a 0.8 mile 3 stop line at $52.5 million. If we extrapolate that cost to the  20 mile Silver line from the airport to Matthews that's right at $1 billion.  Lets double that to allow for vehicle purchases and cost over runs.  That's still less than the Blue Line, and it would be automated with higher frequency.  That's damned tempting to advocate for. 

On 11/20/2019 at 8:46 AM, Third Strike said:

I’m I wrong in thinking that the city should prioritize a Silver Line spur out east along Albemarle Road, versus expanding the light rail into Union or further in Gaston beyond Belmont? Not that I’m against the latter, it just seems like an overlooked corridor that should be strongly considered, especially since the current Route 9 has one of the highest ridership numbers in the system. The region also has plans of submitting to the upcoming STIP for upgrading Albemarle Road from Central to I-485. Seems like a good opportunity to work with the NCDOT to preserve ROW along the the middle of the road for future rail. 

The City should yes, but regionally I'm not sure that's the best approach. 

I think I would rather see commuter rail to Gaston County, as opposed to light rail to there.  I think the NCRR should seriously consider working with NS to see if they could relocate the main line to the south side of Gastonia and preserve some ROW for Charlotte-Atlanta HSR , opening up the current NS main line for heavy commuter rail which would still allow for access to NS customers currently on the main line.  Theoretically this could allow the elimination of the Gastonia HSR station as well as Gastonia residents would have multiple ways to get to the Charlotte Douglas station.  I'm not sure I would advocate for that, but it would be a possibility.  

[kermit]

Article is about Seattle but Charlotte and Raleigh also saw a significant drop in drive alone commuting per census data.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-sees-nations-biggest-drop-in-solo-car-commuters-as-transit-walking-surge/

 

[Hushpuppy321]

I-77 Express Lanes Are open along the Full Length Although some Construction will linger on for the next 6 to 8 Months I’m sure.  Does anyone know where CATS is currently on the BRT Option for the RedLine?  Obviously - The Lightrail Option to the North is dead on arrival and I remember there being a BRT Option floating around.

[tozmervo]

13 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I-77 Express Lanes Are open along the Full Length Although some Construction will linger on for the next 6 to 8 Months I’m sure.  Does anyone know where CATS is currently on the BRT Option for the RedLine?  Obviously - The Lightrail Option to the North is dead on arrival and I remember there being a BRT Option floating around.

I don't believe there's yet a formal timeline for studying enhanced/dedicated BRT, but they do have a number of incremental improvements planned over the next few years. February 3rd will mark the first step, when the express routes will be overhauled and optimized to take full advantage of the express lanes & new express-only exits, including a new route so each exit will be served by it's own route. There will be a big media push very soon to advertise the changes, including the fact that express bus fare is considerably less than the cost of the tolls. 

[KJHburg]

Houston which has terrible traffic but the one of the largest express bus system in the country.  They have these huge park and ride lots with shelters and then people board the buses which fly down the express lanes to downtown.  As that Agenda story pointed out we can not neglect our bus system service as it is not feasible possible to serve all areas with rail.  

[Seaboard Fellow]

On 11/20/2019 at 8:46 AM, Third Strike said:

I’m I wrong in thinking that the city should prioritize a Silver Line spur out east along Albemarle Road, versus expanding the light rail into Union or further in Gaston beyond Belmont? Not that I’m against the latter, it just seems like an overlooked corridor that should be strongly considered, especially since the current Route 9 has one of the highest ridership numbers in the system. The region also has plans of submitting to the upcoming STIP for upgrading Albemarle Road from Central to I-485. Seems like a good opportunity to work with the NCDOT to preserve ROW along the the middle of the road for future rail. 
 

Same deal with a spur to SouthPark or maybe even a Blue Line spur off onto South Tryon, out to Ayrsley and Rivergate in Steele Creek. I personally think BRT should be considered first for US 74 in Gaston from Belmont to Gastonia, and BRT from CPCC in Matthews to Monroe for Union County along US 74. 

I concur a spur along Albemarle Rd that terminated at Eastland and later at I-485 would be a great investment in transportation infrastructure in East Charlotte. Eastland would be a prime spot for TOD with connections to the Silver Line spur and Gold Line.  Especially if both lines were buried at Eastland to maximize development potential. 

[kermit]

The Washington Post holds up Charlotte's floodplain home buyout  process as a shining  example of how cities can adapt to climate change. While that isn't directly relevant to this thread it did mention how the buyout program is funded, and what makes it flexible enough to be a success -- its funding from the impervious surfaces fee paid by residents to Charlotte Water. This sort of compensatory funding model would certainly be a boon for transit and walkability, a parking tax is the first option that comes to my mind...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2019/11/26/one-citys-plan-combat-climate-change-bulldoze-homes-rebuild-paradise/

a bonus from the article was this comment:

Quote

I rarely comment, but the by-line (lede, whatever), the caption of the photo, headline, all neglected to mention what state this Charlotte was in. I had to read til the fourth paragraph to infer they were talking about Charlotte, NC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2019/11/26/one-citys-plan-combat-climate-change-bulldoze-homes-rebuild-paradise/?outputType=comment&commentId=2839da07-7c67-4951-b000-9f84c9f0b08f

Edited November 30, 2019 by kermit

[Desert Power]

52 minutes ago, kermit said:

The Washington Post holds up Charlotte's floodplain home buyout  process as a shining  example of how cities can adapt to climate change. While that isn't directly relevant to this thread it did mention how the buyout program is funded -- through our impervious surfaces fee paid to Charlotte Water. This sort of funding model would certainly be a boon for transit and walkability, a parking tax comes to mind....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2019/11/26/one-citys-plan-combat-climate-change-bulldoze-homes-rebuild-paradise/

a bonus from the article was this comment:

followed by this one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2019/11/26/one-citys-plan-combat-climate-change-bulldoze-homes-rebuild-paradise/?outputType=comment&commentId=2839da07-7c67-4951-b000-9f84c9f0b08f

Good article.   at the last picture

Seriously, this is a very good policy.  I think of it a lot walking around Sugar Creek Greenway wondering what homes may be next.

[KJHburg]

the Washington Post views Charlotte as a national city and has for many years.  Might have started around DNC or maybe before.  Plus as the largest city between Atlanta and DC most people there have heard of it.  Those comments under that story were funny.  Perhaps we should always refer to Dallas as Dallas TX since there is a Dallas GA or Atlanta as Atlanta GA as there is an Atlanta Michigan.   Charlotte is the only large city over 25,000 people with that name anywhere in the country.    I guess the media will rediscover the village of Charlotte next summer! (and they will be stunned and in shock and awe if they have not been here)  

[videtur quam contuor]

KJ, how could you forget Dallas NC? County seat of Gaston County for 75 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas,_North_Carolina

[KJHburg]

7 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

KJ, how could you forget Dallas NC? County seat of Gaston County for 75 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas,_North_Carolina

When someone says Denver to me I think of east Lincoln county.   I am close to Georgia and had it on my mind but who can forget the Little D over near G-town. 

[Boricua]

On 11/29/2019 at 10:52 PM, Desert Power said:

Good article.   at the last picture

Seriously, this is a very good policy.  I think of it a lot walking around Sugar Creek Greenway wondering what homes may be next.

Mr Strain is missing his Pall Mall 

[Dale]

16 hours ago, KJHburg said:

When someone says Denver to me I think of east Lincoln county.   I am close to Georgia and had it on my mind but who can forget the Little D over near G-town. 

I like to play with Coloradans by asking them, “Denver, Colorado ?”

[DCMetroRaleigh]

17 hours ago, KJHburg said:

the Washington Post views Charlotte as a national city and has for many years.  Might have started around DNC or maybe before.  Plus as the largest city between Atlanta and DC most people there have heard of it.  Those comments under that story were funny.  Perhaps we should always refer to Dallas as Dallas TX since there is a Dallas GA or Atlanta as Atlanta GA as there is an Atlanta Michigan.   Charlotte is the only large city over 25,000 people with that name anywhere in the country.    I guess the media will rediscover the village of Charlotte next summer! (and they will be stunned and in shock and awe if they have not been here)  

The Washington Post’s big city treatment of Charlotte is largely a factor of it being a nearby regional neighbor.  It seems every other person in the DMV has North Carolina connections. Geography matters. The Boston Globe, LA Times, and Miami Herald Dont treat Charlotte with the same type of familiarity as WaPo. 

Comment about how here in the Mid-Atlantic, people know Charlotte And Raleigh as a regional neighbor.  But the concern is based on the fact the WaPo is an international paper with readers far beyond the MidAtlantic. 
 

1 day ago

 

AP used to have a rule about when you mentioned the state... Here in the mid-Atlantic, you might think everyone knows it's Charlotte North Carolina but someone in Oklahoma or Washington State may not make that assumption. 

[XRZ.ME]

In Nov MTC meeting minutes,

 

Looks like there will be Silver Line Rail Trail

 

Blue Line Ridership up 49.9% YoY, although last year the hurricane knock out Blue line for about ten days in October.

 

Edit the YoY percentage

Edited December 3, 2019 by XRZ.ME

[southslider]

31 minutes ago, XRZ.ME said:

In Nov MTC meeting minutes,

The City will pay $50M to answer these questions, but here are my early answers (much /s):

*The dreaded weave of the 12th/Davidson/Caldwell needs redone anyhow. And no one would miss the Levine Deckapolis. The XCLT may be tight, but it should really go McDowell/7th instead of Central anyhow.

*Funny how CATS will blame Express Lanes when they are literally rebuilding the bridge as we speak. Maybe the endless construction will be a faint memory by the time this design exercise wraps up.

*Best hurry up for that joint development proposal. And check the fine print.

*That same NSRR will give a definitive answer in 3rd Ward but somehow not Lake Norman. Well, maybe sinking big money into a new football stadium helps.

*Oh right, that prior study was serious about skirting the hospital to be closer to walk-friendly downtown Matthews.  Sure you can't just follow ugly Independence the entire way?  Or rebuild even more of Monroe Road ala North Tryon?  Besides, Durham learned hospitals can be great partners.

*East Charlotte could surely sacrifice some older apartments. However, using Federal dollars makes targeting disproportionate pockets of minority households a bit tricky.

 

 

[XRZ.ME]

9 hours ago, southslider said:

The City will pay $50M to answer these questions, but here are my early answers (much /s):

*The dreaded weave of the 12th/Davidson/Caldwell needs redone anyhow. And no one would miss the Levine Deckapolis. The XCLT may be tight, but it should really go McDowell/7th instead of Central anyhow.

*Funny how CATS will blame Express Lanes when they are literally rebuilding the bridge as we speak. Maybe the endless construction will be a faint memory by the time this design exercise wraps up.

*Best hurry up for that joint development proposal. And check the fine print.

*That same NSRR will give a definitive answer in 3rd Ward but somehow not Lake Norman. Well, maybe sinking big money into a new football stadium helps.

*Oh right, that prior study was serious about skirting the hospital to be closer to walk-friendly downtown Matthews.  Sure you can't just follow ugly Independence the entire way?  Or rebuild even more of Monroe Road ala North Tryon?  Besides, Durham learned hospitals can be great partners.

*East Charlotte could surely sacrifice some older apartments. However, using Federal dollars makes targeting disproportionate pockets of minority households a bit tricky.

 

 

For Hawthorne Bridge, my understanding from the slide is CATS want to use express lane space for Silver line. So it actually runs below Hawthorne Bridge. No modification needed at all. 

[southslider]

8 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

For Hawthorne Bridge, my understanding from the slide is CATS want to use express lane space for Silver line. So it actually runs below Hawthorne Bridge. No modification needed at all. 

Hard to believe highway capacity will be sacrificed. And in the longested section without exits. Where paralleling congested Central and 7th.  A pinch point in multiple ways. 

If you believe converting motorist lanes for tracks will be easy, then I have a railyard north of Uptown ready for park conversion. 

 

[JacksonH]

On 12/1/2019 at 11:39 AM, DCMetroRaleigh said:

The Washington Post’s big city treatment of Charlotte is largely a factor of it being a nearby regional neighbor.  It seems every other person in the DMV has North Carolina connections. Geography matters. The Boston Globe, LA Times, and Miami Herald Dont treat Charlotte with the same type of familiarity as WaPo. 

Comment about how here in the Mid-Atlantic, people know Charlotte And Raleigh as a regional neighbor.  But the concern is based on the fact the WaPo is an international paper with readers far beyond the MidAtlantic. 
 

1 day ago

 

AP used to have a rule about when you mentioned the state... Here in the mid-Atlantic, you might think everyone knows it's Charlotte North Carolina but someone in Oklahoma or Washington State may not make that assumption. 

I'm sorry, but the person who posted that comment in the WaPo scolding them for not spelling out the state where Charlotte is located should be ashamed of his or herself for being so ignorant.  That is absurd.  Who here does not know the states where these cities are located:  Indianapolis, El Paso, Nashville, Memphis, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Albuquerque, Tucson, Fresno, Sacramento, Raleigh, Omaha, Tulsa, New Orleans, Cleveland, Bakersfield, Honolulu, Corpus Christi, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh?  Guess what these cities have in common?  All of them have populations smaller than Charlotte AND are in metro areas that are smaller than the Charlotte metro area. 

There are nearly 3 million people in the Charlotte area.  There are two major league sports teams in Charlotte.  Major national banks are headquartered in Charlotte.  A political convention has been held in Charlotte.  It's frequently cited for its rapid growth.  It's on national weather maps on TV and in newspapers.  During elections, North Carolina is frequently covered in the news because of its swing state status, and they always drill down on what's going on in Charlotte and Raleigh.  Bottom line: Charlotte is frequently in the news for various reasons pertaining to wide-ranging topics.  It's not a secret city! And it's stunning to me that someone who reads the Washington Post hasn't run across any of the numerous news items about the city to know what friggin' state it is in.

Edited December 4, 2019 by JacksonH