CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Seaboard Fellow]

On 2/12/2020 at 11:27 PM, elrodvt said:

I like it but traffic enforcement, in my experience, is virtually non existent. Obviously a lower priority than criminal law but I don't think I've ever lived in a place with so little traffic police. Funding? Least desirable job? Not sure.

I could see these lanes working if transit signals were employed that gave the bus a head start.  

[southslider]

7 hours ago, Seaboard Fellow said:

I could see these lanes working if transit signals were employed that gave the bus a head start.  

That's exactly how they work. And much cheaper than widening up and down a thoroughfare for bus lanes the entire way.

[CLT2014]

35 minutes ago, southslider said:

That's exactly how they work. And much cheaper than widening up and down a thoroughfare for bus lanes the entire way.

How do right turns for cars work with these bus lanes?

[tozmervo]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

How do right turns for cars work with these bus lanes?

When I have seen it done, there's a special signal that allows the bus to proceed before cars have a green light. So the bus would be clear of the intersection then traffic would proceed like normal. 

[Desert Power]

Seems like I see a car in the bus lane every time I'm on 4th.

[michaelef]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

When I have seen it done, there's a special signal that allows the bus to proceed before cars have a green light. So the bus would be clear of the intersection then traffic would proceed like normal. 

Here is a video of a bus que jump in Seattle

 

[davidclt]

1 hour ago, michaelef said:

Here is a video of a bus que jump in Seattle

I wish we could have articulated buses here in Charlotte. Wasn't it Jim Black that proposed and passed a bill to make them effectively illegal in North Carolina or at least Charlotte and Matthews.

[kermit]

4 hours ago, davidclt said:

I wish we could have articulated buses here in Charlotte. Wasn't it Jim Black that proposed and passed a bill to make them effectively illegal in North Carolina or at least Charlotte and Matthews.

Yup, he pushed that through after CATS said they wanted to run BRT on Independence instead of LRT.

EDIT: It might have been Clodfelter, I never could remember names.

Edited February 15, 2020 by kermit

[southslider]

^I always heard it was Dan Clodfelter.

[Jenna chavez]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:53 AM, Madison Parkitect said:

Such a smart move to put a new station there, it'll help Atherton too. The other night I was there and parking was a madhouse even on a Wednesday night.

I thought it was just a crossing at Publix, not an actual stop. 

[Hushpuppy321]

2 hours ago, Jenna chavez said:

I thought it was just a crossing at Publix, not an actual stop. 

Once completely funded it’ll be an actual full service Lightrail stop.

[southslider]

The crossing is a City project. A station isn't funded.

[kermit]

The city of Gastonia has budgeted "$70,000" (about 2/3rds in employee time) towards CATS' federally funded TOD study. The Federal grant was for $200,000 to study TOD along the Silver Line route and it required a local match. Charlotte is putting in $50,000 so the Gastonia contribution appears to be significant.  While it is just a tiny chunk of money, I believe this is the first time a Gaston entity has spent actual cash on Silver Line preparation.

https://www.gastongazette.com/news/20200220/gastonia-funding-study-to-prepare-for-light-rail-expansion

[kermit]

The COG / CATS regional transit study should be released... today

I suspect it will come with a useful Gateway station update.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

On 2/23/2020 at 9:14 PM, kermit said:

The COG / CATS regional transit study should be released... today

I suspect it will come with a useful Gateway station update.

 

 

Thanks for the heads up on the coming Report.  I’ve recently  been reading / studying plans for Commuter Rail in the Triangle (Wake/Durham) and am jealous for the Charlotte Region because Lightrail is good (For local Transit & Development) but largely a Mecklenburg County only Line.  Commuter Rail is good for the growing suburbs and outer rim communities to get into City Center helping to strengthen the Region.

The Planned Silver Line is a very good and needed Transit Project and seems like it’s in good hands (CATS = ) supported vociferously by City Council and now under substantial Engineering Design.  The only question regarding Future Lightrail is Funding (Voter & Government Support).

What my concern is about Regional Commuter Rail for the Charlotte Region, it seems like Wake/Durham is a lot further along in the process.  It seems like it’ll only get done if we have support from Legislators in NC/SC in order to form an Interstate Compact - An agency that can build across State Lines and levy taxes & fees to build this type of infrastructure all at once.  That’s the only way I see it getting done.  Raleigh/Durham regionally has the benefit of being wholly in one state where Charlotte regionally straddles the line - sort of like KC.  (RideKC is an Interstate Compact serving their Metro, MO & KC).  I know there was angst about the death of DOLR but the Triangle development patterns seem more suited to BRT & Commuter Rail.  I just don’t want Greater CLT to be left behind in that regard.

Does anyone else have other ideas for robust Commuter Rail for York, Lancaster, Gaston, Iredell, Cabarrus, Union & Rowan?  Could forming an Interstate Compact help?

Edited February 25, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[kermit]

^ I dunno, I think phase 1 of regional transit is more straightforward than it initially appears (once one big issue gets worked out, see below). The current project (Connect Beyond)  will toss out one or two feasible (ish) transit proposals for each county in the region. If the counties are interested they will vote on allocating funds for it. Any places that vote to be left-behind will be removed from the conversation.

There are really only 1.5 SC counties that might benefit from transit to Charlotte. York (where commuter rail is a possibility) has already demonstrated their interest and currently has an express bus. Lancaster is a place where an express bus from Indian Land will probably do the trick. Given the historic light hand of state govt in SC , the ‘small’ nature of both these projects and the existing bus service I don't think any big interstate bureaucracy is critical to getting either project done.

The big nut to crack in this process is figuring out how to pay for the portion of each of these projects that are in Mecklenburg.  While Meck will certainly gain a bunch from better transit to surrounding towns, I doubt residents will vote to pay for much of that (particularly since much of the commuter rail will be redundant with existing transit).

Edited February 25, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

Love this thread

 

[southslider]

^If you add up all the new STIP projects in Mecklenburg (77 South being the most expensive), just adding a park-and-ride at Hambright doesn't add up to much transit spending for Charlotte to brag about, in comparison. 

[DCMetroRaleigh]

DC about to join free transit trend?

 

NEW: #DC could be the next #US city offering its residents free public transit under ⁦@charlesallen⁩ plan with strong support from key city council members that would provide $100-a-month in #Metro #Smartrip public transportation credits. #wmata https://t.co/BJfBrw4hRI

[RANYC]

What about a dedicated autonomous vehicle  shuttle as an alternative to the Silver Line and other light rail lines.  Read that Downtown Jacksonville has just designated such a thoroughfare, albeit along a relatively small stretch of an inner city avenue.  Would roadways/pathways exclusively dedicated to autonomous mass transit, aligned with appropriate, dense TOD zoning, not achieve much of the objective for light rail but at a fraction of the cost? 

[kermit]

3 hours ago, RANYC said:

What about a dedicated autonomous vehicle  shuttle as an alternative to the Silver Line and other light rail lines.  Read that Downtown Jacksonville has just designated such a thoroughfare, albeit along a relatively small stretch of an inner city avenue.  Would roadways/pathways exclusively dedicated to autonomous mass transit, aligned with appropriate, dense TOD zoning, not achieve much of the objective for light rail but at a fraction of the cost? 

1) If we are willing to give up car lanes now then BRT would do the job even more cheaply. 

2) At grade travel will never be as fast as dedicated ROW LRT (mostly due to traffic conflicts that will exist at crossing points)

3) It could work if we knew when autonomous vehicle technology was ready for prime time -- otherwise we just accumulate more sprawl barnacles while we wait....  I just got back from a road trip where I attempted to wash my hands using a wide variety of touchless faucets. None of them worked well enough for me to be willing to trust my life to that tech.  Autonomous train tech is available now.

4) Its not clear that rubber tire vehicles of any kind offer enough route-permanence to encourage high-density development and land use change (rezoning alone is not enough to increase densities)

Edited March 6, 2020 by kermit

[RANYC]

12 hours ago, kermit said:

1) If we are willing to give up car lanes now then BRT would do the job even more cheaply. 

2) At grade travel will never be as fast as dedicated ROW LRT (mostly due to traffic conflicts that will exist at crossing points)

3) It could work if we knew when autonomous vehicle technology was ready for prime time -- otherwise we just accumulate more sprawl barnacles while we wait....  I just got back from a road trip where I attempted to wash my hands using a wide variety of touchless faucets. None of them worked well enough for me to be willing to trust my life to that tech.  Autonomous train tech is available now.

4) Its not clear that rubber tire vehicles of any kind offer enough route-permanence to encourage high-density development and land use change (rezoning alone is not enough to increase densities)

I don’t mean just lanes set aside, I mean entirely dedicated streets to shared autonomous vehicle shuttles.  In the same way that track lines are dedicated to light rail, this would dedicate and convert an entire roadway to autonomous vehicles with tech components lining the street to guide and interact with the vehicle.  Align adjacent land uses to mass transit, use crossing gates for intersections similar to what’s done for light rail, and don’t you end up with a somewhat cheaper option for reliable mass transit corridors versus going out and buying land to lay track lines from scratch?  The technology is being tested and there’s growing consensus around its feasibility.  Our silver line isn’t going to be ready until 2030 and potentially at great expense, can’t we consider alternatives that may get us to the same mobility goal at potentially less cost?

Edited March 6, 2020 by RANYC

[Nathan2]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

  Our silver line isn’t going to be ready until 2030 and potentially at great expense, can’t we consider alternatives that may get us to the same mobility goal at potentially less cost?

I never understand this thinking. Why does it need to be cheaper or viewed as too expensive. No one is batting an eye at how expensive the inefficient Toll lane projects in the area are costing, and they are adding up to around 4 billion  dollars when it is all said and done which is around the same cost as the silver lane. The silver line will get people out of cars, reducing traffic on the highways, and spur billions of dollars in development. 

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

No one is batting an eye at ... Toll lane projects

You must have missed a few years here? Arguably,  we even lost a governor to the toll lanes ...

[RANYC]

42 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

I never understand this thinking. Why does it need to be cheaper or viewed as too expensive. No one is batting an eye at how expensive the inefficient Toll lane projects in the area are costing, and they are adding up to around 4 billion  dollars when it is all said and done which is around the same cost as the silver lane. The silver line will get people out of cars, reducing traffic on the highways, and spur billions of dollars in development. 

"Dedicated mass transit corridors with adjacent, aligned land uses" will get people out of cars reducing traffic on highways and spurring development.   Whether it's light rail on tracks or other forms of transit on dedicated roadways with no competition with or interference from automobiles is the point I'm asking for others to consider.   As for cheap or expensive, well ROI should always matter when acting as a steward of other people's resources...why not explore all solutions to achieve maximum ROI.