CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

11 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Thanks for the heads up.  Any reason why they took this position?  Is it a safety thing or emissions or both?

I didn't look at the text of the bill (I suspect it was safety based). But the rumors around here were that it was entirely an effort to be obstructionist to CATS' BRT plans.

[southslider]

It was entirely tactical to stop BRT on Independence. Chapel Hill even ignored the law, knowing full well it was really just intended for Charlotte. And it wasn't Bishop, but Clodfelter, a Democrat, albeit a Blue Dog Dem.

[CLT>]

On 4/23/2020 at 3:19 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Articulated Buses - Why don’t we (NC) have any?  Was there a law passed...?

We used to have some, that were abandoned by MARTA and rehabbed by CT back in the 90s, and painted blue (compared to the white which all the buses were at that time).

[LKN704]

Whatever happened to the roll out of smart cards for payment? 

I know UNCC students are still using yet their IDs for proof-of-payment on LRT, but IIRC buses have been equipped with readers on the fare boxes and they can tap to ride when boarding a bus, 

[KJHburg]

this is from Raleigh and can be implemented much cheaper than our rail system.  Bus Rapid Transit.   Check it out.

 

[LKN704]

Looks great, but I remain wary of the possibility of success of any BRT system here in the States.

Those bus-only lanes are great in theory until general motorists start using them to cut in and out of traffic, as they are often difficult to enforce. Here in DC we have red "bus only" lanes but I still see folks driving in them. I've also seen numerous motorists drive in the "bus only" SBS lanes in NYC. 

Signal priority is also great until other motorists start complaining and begin to lobby to have the system turned off, as had happened in Cleveland with their BRT system. IIRC, the Boulder/Denver BRT project also had signal priority but was eventually canceled or turned off.

Those enhanced stations that offer features akin to a LRT station provide an easy outlet for cutbacks (removal of TVM and canopies, pay prior to boarding feature, etc) should the project go over budget.

I'm not against BRT per se, but I think if you are going to commit to such a project you need to design it right, with a dedicated ROW the entire length of the route with level crossings, otherwise you are simply looking at an enhanced bus service. I think LA Metro did a fabulous job with their Orange Line system. They are even adding crossing gates and grade separations to improve capacity and speed. It legitimately feels like a rail service. 

[kermit]

6 hours ago, KJHburg said:

this is from Raleigh and can be implemented much cheaper than our rail system.  Bus Rapid Transit.   Check it out

Thanks for the video, I have been looking for news from Wake county.

Yea, it is usually cheaper than LRT but its capacity at peak is very limited due to vehicle size restrictions in comparison to rail. Also, depending on how they build it, it either takes an existing lane away from cars or it is always slower than driving.  The Raleigh New Bern corridor appears to be about 1/3 in mixed traffic, 1/3 dedicated ROW (but on the expressway portion of New Bern so the speed benefit is low) and dedicated bus lanes (except at intersections) for the intown portion. The corridor is shockingly low density other than the Wake Med area.  It also appears to have stations in the median in the outer portions of the route -- this is problematic since they attract less ridership than other stations (they are less walkable and more difficult to transfer to.

The other big issue with BRT is it lacks the permanence of LRT so developers are much less likely to build along BRT routes. Development and increased density is really the mechanism which pays for LRT. Since BRT lacks that return potential it ends up costing cities more in the long run.

BRT is another 'you get what you pay for' transit innovation. But I suspect we will end up with BRT on Freedom drive and possibly Graham.

EDIT: The Los Angeles Orange line is BRT which was built on an old inter-urban rail ROW. It was embraced by riders so it is running at max capacity. The crossing gates and grade separations are part of the route's conversion to LRT to resolve these capacity issues. It would have been much cheaper to build it as LRT right off the bat.  https://www.metro.net/news/simple_pr/l-metro-breaks-ground-orange-line-improvemen/

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by kermit

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

It would have been much cheaper to build it as LRT right off the bat.

I'm not that too familiar with LA Transit policy, but didn't they have some bizarre anti-light rail law passed (similar to the articulated bus law here) that prohibited any rail expansion into the San Fernando Valley areas of the city unless it was a tunneled subway?

[kermit]

13 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I'm not that too familiar with LA Transit policy, but didn't they have some bizarre anti-light rail law passed (similar to the articulated bus law here) that prohibited any rail expansion into the San Fernando Valley areas of the city unless it was a tunneled subway?

Yea, there was an anti-LRT law that applied to the Orange line route. I don’t recall the details of the law, but  they had to get it repealed to do the BRT to LRT switch. So you are correct that it could not have been initially built as LRT.

[Seaboard Fellow]

The BRT line in Richmond has been very successful. Both Charlotte and Richmond are more similar than most probably know once you get beyond the whole independent city/county dynamic.   If BRT is implemented in Charlotte on  the right route, I have no doubt BRT will be successful. 

[kermit]

This is very good news, I hope Harvey can make it work

 

 

[CLT>]

On 4/26/2020 at 6:28 PM, CLT> said:

We used to have some, that were abandoned by MARTA and rehabbed by CT back in the 90s, and painted blue (compared to the white which all the buses were at that time).

 Here is the article on Charlotte Transit buying used articulated buses from MARTA in 1989. Sorry for the crap screen grab, but at least shows you what they looked like, kind of.

CT painted them dark blue with their light blue and green signature stripe.

CHARLOTTE COULD REBUILD USED BUSES

August 31, 1988 | Charlotte Observer, The (NC)

FOON RHEE, Staff Writer | Page: 1E | Section: METRO

 

Charlotte Transit officials will recommend next month that the city buy 10

extra-long buses from Atlanta - a move that could result in a half-price

purchase for Charlotte.

``We're not getting new buses, but we think we can get 10 good years out of these buses,`` the city's assistant transportation director, Terry Lathrop,

said Tuesday. ``That's a real bargain for the city.``

After refurbishing, the nine-year-old buses would cost the city about

$9,000 apiece, compared with $19,000 apiece set aside for new buses.

For new buses, the city pays 10 percent of the total cost, the federal

government 80 percent and the state 10 percent. Each used bus, after

refurbishing, will cost a total of $90,000, compared with a $190,000 total

cost of a new bus.

The 60-foot articulated buses, with flexible joints in the middle to make

turns easier, seat 75 - 30 more than 40-foot regular-size buses. They would be the first of their kind in the 155-bus city fleet.

During six months of refurbishing expected to cost $80,000 per bus, the

buses will get rebuilt engines and new seats, windows and paint jobs. ``I

think the bus will look practically brand new when it goes on the street,``

Charlotte Transit System Manager David Hines said.

The sale needs the approval of the city council and the board of the

Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority (MARTA), which is scheduled to

consider it next month. The federal Urban Mass Transit Administration must

transfer ownership of the buses and allow Charlotte to use a new bus grant to buy used buses.

If things go as planned, Hines said, the buses will hit busy commuter

routes, such as the Albemarle Road express, late next summer.

During a monthlong test of one Atlanta bus in July, Charlotte Transit

drivers reported no problems and said they turned corners more easily than

regular buses.

Under the agreement, MARTA will sell the buses at their book value, now

about $10,000 a bus.

MARTA will also sell its full stock of spare parts and specialized tools

for the buses for $150,000, about half its value, Atlanta and Charlotte

officials said.

 

 

 

As a completely random bonus, here's  the 90's Charlotte Transit Bus Paint Scheme when they were C Transit and just before becoming CATS.

Gotta love the best use of Mistral typeface ever.....

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by CLT>

[ertley]

13 hours ago, Seaboard Fellow said:

The BRT line in Richmond has been very successful. Both Charlotte and Richmond are more similar than most probably know once you get beyond the whole independent city/county dynamic.   If BRT is implemented in Charlotte on  the right route, I have no doubt BRT will be successful. 

Not being an expert in transit issues, I'm just making a layman's argument here, but it seems to me, with all of the caveats offered in earlier posts, that the rubric for determining BRT routes should be less where planners would *want* them to go and where they *can* successfully go--if in fact in other cities they devolve due to issues with signaling, lane infringement, etc.

One of the sacred cows I think cities like Charlotte needs to sacrifice for the greater *environmental* good are medians (with or without trees, although realizing iconic streets like Queens Road and The Plaza will keep theirs). But if the city strategically eliminates medians on much of its city streets--good, big trees planted on either side, shading the sidewalks will still offer beauty as well as their environmental benefits--you can almost "magically" provide lateral space for bike lanes in both directions on smaller neighborhood streets and width for at least one BRT lane on boulevards.  The loss of the city's median trees will be far outweighed by the increased use of bikes and BRT routes and their reductions in carbon emissions.  

In terms of BRT routes, it looks to me like an obvious place to start is on the city's expressways with the fewest or no stop lights--Independence, Billy Graham, and the Beltway--because these can all have dedicated lanes added and/or use existing or planned Express lanes. 485 BRT routes can get suburbanites from lots along the Beltway lots to transfer stations, either Lynx, other BRT or conventional bus routes; Billy Graham can serve the airport but also start from the West Tuckaseegee area, transfer from the Silver Line, and terminate at the Blue Line on South; and Independence would still be important because the Silver Line leaves Independence at Village Lake and then follows Monroe farther south, so an Independence BRT route can service folks who live north of Independence.

For boulevards with stop lights, ideally you would retrofit them with bi-directional BRT lanes, but realistically eliminating their medians will only provide enough width for one BRT lane--but I think a single central lane can be made to work, at least in a first generation. New flat, paved medians would be marked as BRT only, like central turning lanes on some streets are, with cameras installed to automatically ticket any cars using them to pass or travel. It would be fairly easy to determine what directions have greater rider volume during rush hours, and those get the BRT lane rights of way during those hours of traffic, and other buses would have to share standard traffic lanes. 

W.T. Harris, as an example, especially on its northern portions, has medians that could be transformed into BRT lane(s). Harris can link Northlake all the way down to Independence, and allow transfers from the Blue Line at McCullough/Clay to the Silver Line Village Lake Dr. station. 51 through southern Charlotte has a similar median that could be eliminated. This same model could allow a BRT spur from Billy Graham down Tyvola and all the way to South Park (I think the city would just have to buy the several blocks of houses on the south side of Tyvola between the old school and the wastewater treatment land to allow a central lane through that portion).  

But just realizing that central medians, although they may be attractive, are massively wasted and can be transformed into utilitarian spaces (either BRT lanes or bike lanes) that can do far greater environmental good, to me, is pragmatic and relatively simple solution hiding in plain sight.   

Just a layman's conception of how a BRT system could be implemented without sacrificing existing car travel lanes, and utilizing space within DoT rights of way.

[kermit]

^ Great post! You are completely right about medians and an underutilzed mobility resource.

I totally agree there are places where BRT can work well. The clearest example is from North Meck where buses can get access to the express lanes into uptown. Pairing express lane access with dedicated bus lanes (w signal priority) within uptown will create a BRT route that is both faster than driving and relatively inexpensive (unfortunately folks in N Meck are not thrilled with the lack of rail). This was also the original plan for Independence out to Matthews. Depending on design specifics on 77 South widening BRT might also work well for Rock Hill transit.

Using BRT for intown transit (like Raleigh plans to do) requires very high frequency for it to change people's travel behavior, without 10 minute (preferably less) frequency, routes generally see poor ridership (not much better than the normal bus route it replaced). When BRT ridership is disappointing transit agencies often respond with reduced frequencies, basically making BRT an expensive 'normal' bus route -- this chases choice riders away and results in developers being completely uninterested in the BRT route for investments. This happened in Cleveland and I fear this frequency cut is about to happen in Richmond.

[kermit]

The Observer has a (short) story on the Ballantyne Blue Line extension

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242672116.html

It mentions the three stations and preserving a right of way for the BLE-E but timelines are not discussed and no funding has been identified. Reading between the lines it does seem clear that Northwood recognizes that it will be impossible to add 7,000 jobs to the area without transit but....

[TheMightyBK]

7 hours ago, kermit said:

^ Great post! You are completely right about medians and an underutilzed mobility resource.

I totally agree there are places where BRT can work well. The clearest example is from North Meck where buses can get access to the express lanes into uptown. Pairing express lane access with dedicated bus lanes (w signal priority) within uptown will create a BRT route that is both faster than driving and relatively inexpensive (unfortunately folks in N Meck are not thrilled with the lack of rail). This was also the original plan for Independence out to Matthews. Depending on design specifics on 77 South widening BRT might also work well for Rock Hill transit.

Using BRT for intown transit (like Raleigh plans to do) requires very high frequency for it to change people's travel behavior, without 10 minute (preferably less) frequency, routes generally see poor ridership (not much better than the normal bus route it replaced). When BRT ridership is disappointing transit agencies often respond with reduced frequencies, basically making BRT an expensive 'normal' bus route -- this chases choice riders away and results in developers being completely uninterested in the BRT route for investments. This happened in Cleveland and I fear this frequency cut is about to happen in Richmond.

The bolded part above...didn't they actually build BRT lanes on Independence back in the 90s??  I lived there then, and remember thinking nobody would use it...and I think it was scrapped after just a couple years.  Or am I misremembering that??  

[southslider]

On 5/12/2020 at 8:17 PM, TheMightyBK said:

The bolded part above...didn't they actually build BRT lanes on Independence back in the 90s??  I lived there then, and remember thinking nobody would use it...and I think it was scrapped after just a couple years.  Or am I misremembering that??  

They built a reversible peak-direction lane that ended up being used as a demonstration busway.

[TheMightyBK]

4 hours ago, southslider said:

They built a reversible peak-direction lane that ended up being used as a demonstration busway.

Wait...all that construction disruption and expense was just a demonstration?!? Why did the city bail on it?

[southslider]

21 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

Wait...all that construction disruption and expense was just a demonstration?!? Why did the city bail on it?

The construction was ultimately for a hybrid arterial-expressway. The reversible lane just never went into operation, due to initially being too short on the oldest section by the Coliseum. By the time a similar project went all the way to 277, it was designed as a busway. But then, the City did bail on an exclusive busway, per their managed lanes study.  And as a result, the newest section from Sharon Amity Rd to almost WT Harris Blvd was designed as shared express lanes.

[Hushpuppy321]

Hard Question for Here for you Transit knowledgeable folks; The proposed SilverLine (26 mile) vs the proposed DOLRT (17 mile) - what’s the difference in both proposals?  Strengths & Weaknesses of both.  I’m not that familiar with what challenges/opportunities are along the proposed SilverLine Corridor but am curious that if the DOLRT could be sidelined / critiqued (Re-read 2014 comments about terrible alignment & too many proposed Structures) Is SilverLine equally at risk.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Hard Question for Here for you Transit knowledgeable folks; The proposed SilverLine (26 mile) vs the proposed DOLRT (17 mile) - what’s the difference in both proposals?  Strengths & Weaknesses of both.  I’m not that familiar with what challenges/opportunities are along the proposed SilverLine Corridor but am curious that if the DOLRT could be sidelined / critiqued (Re-read 2014 comments about terrible alignment & too many proposed Structures) Is SilverLine equally at risk.

While the DOLRT was a weak design (particularly at the Chapel Hill end IMO) and was expensive on a per rider basis, the thing that killed it was duke university. Duke said that they weren't sufficiently involved in design and they were concerned about emf and vibration interference with hospital and research equipment. Since duke was in the middle of the route and was a big ridership generator they were unable to change the route when duke decided to say ‘no thanks.’ 

Duke’s decision was hinky for lots of reasons. Design and routing issues had been known for more than a decade but duke acted like they were surprised by the issues just before the FFGA was signed. DUMC's feigned surprise was attributed to a new hospital director who was hostile to transit and a donation to the hospital  from the koch foundation which was rumored to come with anti-transit strings attached (koch founds lots of anti-transit activities). Finally, the angst about the adjacent transit line interfering with equipment was BS, there are many research hospitals with closer transit than DOLRT and duke.

In the case of the Silver Line we do not have any single land owner who could pull the plug on the project. Towns at both ends of the line are enthusiastic (and if they change their minds they can be excised), as is the airport, we have a demonstrated strong ridership engine in uptown and the koch organization would get little traction here since we already have successful rail transit. I would bet on the silver line happening, our risk level is relatively low.

Edited May 27, 2020 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

10 minutes ago, kermit said:

While the DOLRT was a weak design (particularly at the Chapel Hill end IMO) and was expensive on a per rider basis, the thing that killed it was duke university. Duke said that they weren't sufficiently involved in design and they were concerned about emf and vibration interference with hospital and research equipment. Since duke was in the middle of the route and was a big ridership generator they were unable to change the route when duke decided to say ‘no thanks.’ 

Duke’s decision was hinky for lots of reasons. Design and routing issues had been known for more than a decade but duke acted like they were surprised by the issues. Duke’s change in attitude was attributed to a new anti-transit hospital director and (it was rumored) a recent donation from the koch foundation (who regularly spends its money on anti transit activism). Not to mention there are many research hospitals with closer transit than DOLRT and duke.

In the case of the Silver Line we do not have any single entity who could pull the plug on the project. Towns at both ends of the line are enthusiastic (and if they change their minds they can be excised), we have a demonstrated strong ridership engine in uptown and the koch organization would get little traction here since we already have successful rail transit. I would bet on the silver line happening, our risk level is relatively low.

Thanks for the info!  One issue that was mentioned in the DOLRT thread (Triangle UP) was the lack of/poor opportunity for TOD along the alignment.  Do you think with the SilverLine Alignment that was published a year or more ago, there’s sufficient opportunity for TOD along the East-West Route?  Looks like will be hemmed in pretty tightly between Independence Blvd & Plaza-Midwood so not much redevelopment opportunity in that space.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[kermit]

^ I haven’t looked closely at the route but I was under the impression there was plenty of room for redevelopment on most of the line (with the west section and the north end of uptown being the clearest opportunities). East of town will see a crapton of declining strip centers rebuilt into TOD and some considerable densification, there are tons of opportunities, but they are not as concentrated as Southend.

Edited May 27, 2020 by kermit

[southslider]

Wesley Heights and Midwood already have a lot of decent TOD.

Edited May 28, 2020 by southslider

[tozmervo]

I believe the new light rail station at Atherton was to be discussed at this evening's MTC meeting, but I wasn't able to watch. Be on the lookout for news on it.

Edit: it was Wednesday, and the presentation is here: https://bit.ly/3cUZcH9. They vote to move forward in June, but require private funding commitments in addition to the MTC's budgeted commitment.

Edited May 29, 2020 by tozmervo