CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Desert Power]

On 5/27/2020 at 10:33 AM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Thanks for the info!  One issue that was mentioned in the DOLRT thread (Triangle UP) was the lack of/poor opportunity for TOD along the alignment.  Do you think with the SilverLine Alignment that was published a year or more ago, there’s sufficient opportunity for TOD along the East-West Route?  Looks like will be hemmed in pretty tightly between Independence Blvd & Plaza-Midwood so not much redevelopment opportunity in that space.

I think the Airport is really a substantial opportunity and I have a lot of hope for the Wilkenson corridor overall. I would hope Belmont and Mathews can both have some infill too, but not vere familiar with their cores.

[Hushpuppy321]

18 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

I think the Airport is really a substantial opportunity and I have a lot of hope for the Wilkenson corridor overall. I would hope Belmont and Mathews can both have some infill too, but not vere familiar with their cores.

I think the Belmont portion (Major Bridge crossing the Catawba) May be cut once we see the hefty price tag.

[kermit]

28 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I think the Belmont portion (Major Bridge crossing the Catawba) May be cut once we see the hefty price tag.

The bridge won’t be the problem, the state is rebuilding the Wilkinson bridge soon regardless of LRT and they have offered to build it to accommodate LRT. 

I am concerned about who will pay for the rail west of the airport. It about 5 miles from the airport stop to Belmont and very little of that track will be useful to Mecklenburg residents or developers,  so I doubt the MTC has much interest in paying for that track. I doubt Gaston wants to pay for all of those five miles either (that track (without the bridge) will cost hundreds of millions, basically for one useful stop).

Edited May 29, 2020 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

The bridge won’t be the problem, the state is rebuilding the Wilkinson bridge soon regardless of LRT and they have offered to build it to accommodate LRT. 

I am concerned about who will pay for the rail west of the airport. It about 5 miles from the airport stop to Belmont and very little of that track will be useful to Mecklenburg residents or developers,  so I doubt the MTC has much interest in paying for that track. I doubt Gaston wants to pay for all of those five miles either (that track (without the bridge) will cost hundreds of millions, basically for one useful stop).

Definitely A lot of developable land in that area West of the Airport though.  It’d be nice if the City/CATS proposes that Value Capture Tax thing they’ve been floating for all properties adjacent to the Corridor.  I think they will have 2 Stops planned though Prior to Belmont.   One at 485 and another prior to crossing the Catawba.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[JRNYP2C]

21 hours ago, kermit said:

The bridge won’t be the problem, the state is rebuilding the Wilkinson bridge soon regardless of LRT and they have offered to build it to accommodate LRT. 

I am concerned about who will pay for the rail west of the airport. It about 5 miles from the airport stop to Belmont and very little of that track will be useful to Mecklenburg residents or developers,  so I doubt the MTC has much interest in paying for that track. I doubt Gaston wants to pay for all of those five miles either (that track (without the bridge) will cost hundreds of millions, basically for one useful stop).

Wouldn't there be some interest or need when Riverbend is built out?  One stop on the Meck side of the Catawba and 485 possibly?

[DH17]

I'd almost prefer commuter rail from Gastonia to the Airport, and then a transfer to light rail from the Airport to Uptown.  Keeps us from having to run short headway trains all the way out to Gastonia while still having the rail connection. Transfers aren't uncommon in other metros.

Edited May 30, 2020 by DH17

[kermit]

Yea, west of the airport is tricky from a Mecklenburg County perspective.

• There will certainly be a 485 stop which will be a park and ride, which will probably be  mostly used by Gaston residents. Since it would funnel more workers into uptown without their cars I see the rationale for Mecklenburg residents paying for this stop. IMO the Silver Line should end here if Gaston is not contributing to construction and operations.
• A stop near the river would certainly help to support new development out that way (fingers crossed that CATS decides to name the stop "Catawba Beach"), but this stop would be very hard to justify as the end of the line. It would be two additional miles of track on a completely speculative stop, this stop should be paid for by developers. Taxpayer money would be much better spent on intown improvements like Gold Line expansion, Seviersville streetcar, etc.
• The currently planned Belmont stop is on 74 (not really walking distance to downtown Belmont) and it would likely function as a park and ride as well. Its about 3 additional miles of track just to duplicate the function of the 485 stop. That is a lot of money for track that doesn't provide any real mobility benefit for CATS and only benefits the handful of Gaston residents who don't feel like driving to 485 while they are already in their cars.  

Don't get me wrong, I would really like to see the Silver Line go to Belmont.  Running into a neighboring county is a very big deal for the future of the region and 85 will be a disaster zone by the time the Silver is built. However, I think the line would be much better served by a downtown Belmont terminus (with no park and ride), The town has better bones for walkable TOD than just about anywhere else in the region, it would quickly become a showpiece to the region and stimulate way more transit investment. (same could be said for a Cramerton or McAdenville LRT stop)

As for running the Silver Line to Gastonia -- that is the stupidest idea I ever heard. The trip to Uptown would be much longer than driving and it would be 12 miles of track (from 485) -- that is longer than the BLE which cost $1 billion. I'll eat my empty beer can if Gaston county wants to pay that much money for rail designed to take people to Charlotte. High frequency commuter rail could be built for half of that and it would have a much greater long-term benefit to regional mobility (Gaston trains could be easily through-run out to Cabarrus). 

Edited May 30, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

Austin city council has approved a $10 billion transit plan, paid via property taxes, that will be voted on in November. It sounds like the plan is for three LRT lines and a commuter line (not sure if the commuter line is in addition to the currently operating one). The $10 billion is said to be an extra $360 per year in property tax on the median house.

http://texasrailadvocates.org/2020/06/11/austin-city-capmetro-ok-10-billion-project-connect-three-light-rail-lines/

Edit: 3 LRT lines, one new commuter line (in addition to existing which will get expanded), and a downtown tunnel are included in the plan.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/management/press-release/21141825/capital-metro-austins-project-connect-given-green-light

Edited June 12, 2020 by kermit

[Matthew.Brendan]

I'll be rooting for Austin on that one.

[B Randy]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

Austin city council has approved a $10 billion transit plan, paid via property taxes, that will be voted on in November. It sounds like the plan is for three LRT lines and a commuter line (not sure if the commuter line is in addition to the currently operating one). The $10 billion is said to be an extra $360 per year In tax on the median house.

http://texasrailadvocates.org/2020/06/11/austin-city-capmetro-ok-10-billion-project-connect-three-light-rail-lines/

Good move to  guide the next 20+ years of their growth.   Not sure I like the $2.5B underground connector.  Great for connectivity (people w/ bags), but a risk re: retail, placemaking, activity of the streets above - and at a significant cost to tax payers.

Definitely solidifies the need to make Silver happen here.  

 

[dubone]

Property taxes, especially in the form of Tax Increment Funding are potentially the better approach to infrastructure.    I believe it ought to be more comprehensive, such as adding X-amount of property tax for all infrastructure that feeds to that area.   People are uptight about property taxes, but infrastructure directly benefits property values.  

[Hushpuppy321]

Anyone think that Austin’s Referendum will go down in flames like Nashville?

[KJHburg]

17 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Anyone think that Austin’s Referendum will go down in flames like Nashville?

quite possibly as Austin's property taxes are among the highest in Texas and TX property taxes are overall much higher than NC's.  Of course they have no state income tax.

[kermit]

On 6/14/2020 at 12:30 AM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Anyone think that Austin’s Referendum will go down in flames like Nashville?

The Corona crises makes the vote really difficult to predict.

Nashville's stumbles were: 1) a plan that did not reach the bulk of voters in Davidson county (the LRT lines were mostly just in town); 2) it was an out of cycle election (in May) which had less than 30% turnout; 3)  the face of the referendum was involved in a sex scandal just before the vote; and 4) the koch brothers spent a ton of cash to encourage defeat. 

The Austin vote differs substantially from Nashville, assuming no sex scandal... I have not seen the specifics of the Austin plan, but hopefully they had enough sense to create a plan which touches most of the voters in Travis county.  The other big plus for the vote is it will be held in November, so the election will have a huge turnout (perhaps north of 60%). Turnout has always been a positive for transit referenda and will help to blunt the effects of any propaganda.

The Corona wildcard is a tough one to predict at the moment. Anti-urbanists really jumped on the virus as an opportunity to use the virus to say 'I told you cities were bad.' Fortunately we are now seeing evidence that transit is not an environment where much virus is spread https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/fear-transit-bad-cities/612979/   (also see infection rates in Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore).  And unfortunately, we are starting to see that the virus becoming more of a rural and small town problem as an urban one. Hopefully people will become more rational in their analysis of evidence before November and they will see that cities and transit are still things worth paying for in the (post) Corona age

Ultimately I think the Austin vote will be about growth. If Austin residents believe their city will continue to grow post-virus, then they know that they have no choice other than paying for transit. Most homeowners want to see continued growth (and a way around traffic), and will be reluctant to assume growth has come to an end,  so I'll bet the tax will pass.

 

edit: I have seen my first map of the proposed system. At a glance the rail seems strangely parallel and does not appear to reach much of the county (but I do not know Austin at all)

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

The Corona crises makes the vote really difficult to predict.

Nashville's stumbles were: 1) a plan that did not reach the bulk of voters in Davidson county (the LRT lines were mostly just in town); 2) it was an out of cycle election (in May) which had less than 30% turnout; 3)  the face of the referendum was involved in a sex scandal just before the vote; and 4) the koch brothers spent a ton of cash to encourage defeat. 

The Austin vote differs substantially from Nashville, assuming no sex scandal... I have not seen the specifics of the Austin plan, but hopefully they had enough sense to create a plan which touches most of the voters in Travis county.  The other big plus for the vote is it will be held in November, so the election will have a huge turnout (perhaps north of 60%). Turnout has always been a positive for transit referenda and will help to blunt the effects of any propaganda.

The Corona wildcard is a tough one to predict at the moment. Anti-urbanists really jumped on the virus as an opportunity to use the virus to say 'I told you cities were bad.' Fortunately we are now seeing evidence that transit is not an environment where much virus is spread https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/fear-transit-bad-cities/612979/   (also see infection rates in Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore).  And unfortunately, we are starting to see that the virus becoming more of a rural and small town problem as an urban one. Hopefully people will become more rational in their analysis of evidence before November and they will see that cities and transit are still things worth paying for in the (post) Corona age

Ultimately I think the Austin vote will be about growth. If Austin residents believe their city will continue to grow post-virus, then they know that they have no choice other than paying for transit. Most homeowners want to see continued growth (and a way around traffic), and will be reluctant to assume growth has come to an end,  so I'll bet the tax will pass.

 

edit: I have seen my first map of the proposed system. At a glance the rail seems strangely parallel and does not appear to reach much of the county (but I do not know Austin at all)

 

 

I think I see what you’re saying about the Proposed Lightrail Lines (Orange, Blue, Gold) in Austin.  They seem Planned to run largely parallel through Center City (North/South) then Branch off.  I guess that’ll keep costs down where they’re able to share Tracks.  Here’s a link to the proposed route map I found: https://capmetro.org/uploadedFiles/New2016/ProjectConnect/Maps/03_PCON_ServiceLevelMap_JUN2020_02.pdf

I believe that CATS Proposed Silverline here in Charlotte would be a very good way to cover Mecklenburg County from East to West.  Future Spurs coming off the Silver and Blue Lines would be cool too in the distant (2040+) future.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[KJHburg]

Interesting report from JLL about post pandemic commuting and 34% polled who used transit in the past said they would seek other alternatives.  Obviously this has lots of implications and it will remained to be seen if it holds up. 

https://www.us.jll.com/content/dam/jll-com/documents/pdf/research/Post-Pandemic-Transit-and-Commuting-JLL.pdf

[B Randy]

On 6/16/2020 at 3:12 PM, KJHburg said:

Interesting report from JLL about post pandemic commuting and 34% polled who used transit in the past said they would seek other alternatives.  Obviously this has lots of implications and it will remained to be seen if it holds up. 

https://www.us.jll.com/content/dam/jll-com/documents/pdf/research/Post-Pandemic-Transit-and-Commuting-JLL.pdf

Not unexpected.  I'd be curious to know where the majority of their survey was taken, i.e. what was the mix of respondents living in cities with traditional subways (underground) vs. those traveling on lightrail and streetcar (above). 

My sense is that the underground systems will have to fight hard to overcome the negative connotation that they are "dirty" places - with limited air circulation, scant opportunities to social distance, no virus killing natural light, etc.   

Whereas cities that depend on above ground rail (Charlotte) have the opportunity to highlight clean, new transit cars, the ability to wait in your own space, and plenty of open air throughout the journey.  

Side note:  this is why I'm not a huge fan of the $2.5B Austin below ground connector.  Would rather that money be spent on improving above ground public realm or to extend the lines.  

[LKN704]

I too would be interested to see where the survey was taken.

I don't have a car, so here in DC pre-COVID you would find me on the subway here at least 5-6 times a day, and the bus roughly 3-5 times a week. I am fairly certain it was on the Metro where I contracted COVID19. 

Here is the thing: while everyone else is sticking to Ubers and embracing rideshare services during this time, I actually view them as more of a liability than your traditional subway system. Most transit authorities have ramped up their cleaning to daily, and our employing electrostatic sprayers to disinfect each rail car. No Uber driver is going to be doing that, or disinfecting the vehicle after each ride. MTA has closed the subway between 1a-5a to clean the system, and most agencies have been fairly good at posting their internal COVID-19 cases (and the location of said cases) publicly. 

From what I could tell, MTA, WMATA(DC), MBTA(Boston),  LA Metro, BART (SF) now require the use of face coverings on their buses and trains. I couldn't find data on their respective websites if CATS, Marta, or CTA in Chicago require the use of them. 

I have noticed that in DC, ridership has been slowly trickling back up. It's not even close to what it used to be, but it is getting busier. 

Quite frankly I find all of the claims that "COVID is going to make people leave cities en masse" and that "millennials are now going to stay off transit" to be quite unfounded. Are millennials going to leave cities? Maybe, but I am willing to bet that those who electively leave cities because of COVID were either 1) inherently unhappy living in an urban environment or 2) already planning to leave the urban setting, and COVID just sped up the process of doing so. Those who truly love living in an urban environment and everything that is associated with it (carless living, etc) will likely stay.

[Mgelbach]

I can absolutely say, as a millennial, I don't want to leave city living. Pre or post Covid, I live in southend right behind Flowerchild and just being able to walk everywhere to get a haircut, groceries, dinner is so convenient that I really don't think I could give it up.

 

If i ever do move it would be a block down to the pink building for a larger unit and those views.

[15895]

6 minutes ago, Mgelbach said:

I can absolutely say, as a millennial, I don't want to leave city living. Pre or post Covid, I live in southend right behind Flowerchild and just being able to walk everywhere to get a haircut, groceries, dinner is so convenient that I really don't think I could give it up.

 

If i ever do move it would be a block down to the pink building for a larger unit and those views.

Without my car, covid in DC is annoying. Though as things reopen, it’s getting better. I’m ready to see the normal crowds come back. 
 

During the pandemic and the. Riots, I did want to just move to Dulles or Reston or to South Charlotte/Ballantyne.

ill never move to rural areas, but wealthy suburbs with mixed use town-center developments (like Lake Norman; Birkdale and the various town centers) are starting to become more appealing and just drive into the city. 

[Temeteron]

2 hours ago, Mgelbach said:

I can absolutely say, as a millennial, I don't want to leave city living. Pre or post Covid, I live in southend right behind Flowerchild and just being able to walk everywhere to get a haircut, groceries, dinner is so convenient that I really don't think I could give it up.

 

If i ever do move it would be a block down to the pink building for a larger unit and those views.

Have they renovated the Arlington (pink building) ?  That buildings seems to be a dinosaur compared to the rest of the buildings.  It’s interesting what perspective northeasterners have as they are used to old buildings so they don’t care.  But us southerners are snooty.  Anything more than 5 years old is too old lol

[LKN704]

I am actually on the Metro right now as I write this. This train is relatively packed. It’s kinda awkward because the seats on the DC metro aren’t horizontal like on other subway systems, but rather like the Lynx where they are two by two. People don’t want to sit next to one another but there is only so much standing room. 
 

Anyways, one thing COVID has made me discover is the beauty of bicycling for short trips. This isn’t unique to any one city and probably others are “discovering” this as well. From my house near the NoMa station in DC I would frequently take the train to Dupont Circle station  (5 stops, 14 min ride). Once you add in the 5 minute walk time to the station and add maybe 3 minutes waiting for train, that’s a 23 minute trip. I can bike from by house to the Dupont Circle neighborhood in about 12 minutes. It’s all flat in bike lanes, and it’s a really pretty ride. 
 

I don’t know the bike lane infrastructure in Charlotte, but I could see a similar thing occurring from say trips from South Blvd to Uptown, maybe Uptown to NoDa, and Uptown to Central. I don’t know if the B-cycle sharing system has expanded in the past couple of years. 
 

I would argue that biking is now a much bigger competitor to transit than ride share services, at least for me. I’m sure I’m not the only one making that conclusion. 

[15895]

15 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I am actually on the Metro right now as I write this. This train is relatively packed. It’s kinda awkward because the seats on the DC metro aren’t horizontal like on other subway systems, but rather like the Lynx where they are two by two. People don’t want to sit next to one another but there is only so much standing room. 
 

Anyways, one thing COVID has made me discover is the beauty of bicycling for short trips. This isn’t unique to any one city and probably others are “discovering” this as well. From my house near the NoMa station in DC I would frequently take the train to Dupont Circle station  (5 stops, 14 min ride). Once you add in the 5 minute walk time to the station and add maybe 3 minutes waiting for train, that’s a 23 minute trip. I can bike from by house to the Dupont Circle neighborhood in about 12 minutes. It’s all flat in bike lanes, and it’s a really pretty ride. 
 

I don’t know the bike lane infrastructure in Charlotte, but I could see a similar thing occurring from say trips from South Blvd to Uptown, maybe Uptown to NoDa, and Uptown to Central. I don’t know if the B-cycle sharing system has expanded in the past couple of years. 
 

I would argue that biking is now a much bigger competitor to transit than ride share services, at least for me. I’m sure I’m not the only one making that conclusion. 

CLT is busier by far than ever today, Friday 4pm. They opened the concourse B security checkpoint again and the terminals are bustling. 
 

flight to DCA is oversold and They’re looking for volunteers. 
 

Birkdale Village last night was packed. Things in Charlotte seem normal. DC is getting there too. 

[CLTranspo]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:47 AM, AirNostrumMAD said:

and the. Riots,

Just say you’re white and keep it moving 

[15895]

1 hour ago, CLTranspo said:

Just say you’re white and keep it moving 

I am a gay Latino that came from a poor background that dates a mixed guy... why do I have to state my demographics? 

wtf would being white have to do with feeling anxiety over 7pm curfews 2-days in a row on business days after having been under lockdown for months? 9pm curfews I could’ve dealt with, 7pm? Mental torture. 

I know you’re trying to make me out to be a racist a-hole, but I’ve personally have had mental health problems being under quarantine. I don’t think my mental health problems make me a racist because 7pm curfews make me feel like quarantine will never end.

I usually don’t get riled up or even comment if I don’t like a post because I like to stay on topic, but I don’t like being called a racist and especially because of my mental health. 

The point of my post was, as a millennial who preferred dense urban areas, after months of covid and the riots (that led to curfews as soon as restrictions were being lifted), all of my suburban friends even during the pandemic seemed to have much more freedom and mobility and a greater quality than myself and friends in DC who rely on closed metro stations, got rid of our cars and in general were more cooped up. Its not fun seeing people go out to breweries in Charlotte while being cooped up. And That does not diminish BLM, the movement or cause nor does it make me a racist. 
 

even now, my closest metro station is closed, trains are every 30 minutes on weekends, 20 minutes on weekdays and it ENDS at 9pm and so many closed stations and segments and lines. This from a system on the parts I used had 3 lines share a track and there were trains like once every 2 minutes.... When I go down to Charlotte, those kids are in their cars, driving around. Life back to normal. Same as NoVa. 
 

and feel free to dismiss those, particularly in the larger urban cities in the US who are already probably more sociable than others, who have had a difficult time the last few months and have had more strict lockdowns. Diminish mental health in the name of BLM since apparently multiple issues in the world can’t both be important. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by AirNostrumMAD