CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

I was looking at that in last month's MTC meeting minutes and became weary thinking about the politicking that must go on behind transit line colors. It looked like they deferred a decision on a potential blue-to-green-line conversion until funding is in place.

On another note, I sincerely hope that CATS can wrangle a more appealing engine paint job than the Northstar. I can't begin to count the number of basic graphic design rules that violates. All of which is a polite way of saying my god that's ugly.

[monsoon]

Thanks for the answers!

In my curiosity, I noticed pictures of commuter rail (diesel engines) operating on the same tracks as the Acela. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's because some of the Bos-NYC trains have switched from diesel to electric power but they still run on the same tracks. So it's not out of the questions for a set of rails to work for both electric and diesel trains (the diesel trains just don't tie into to overhead source). .....

So co-incidentally I was catching up on one of the most fascinating train adventures of the 21st century and I noticed exactly what you just asked. i.e. A diesel train using electrified tracks. This blog of a trip from Viena to Pyongyang is being updated periodically by the author and I was catching up last night. If you are not familiar with it, it is a photo journey of a trip that two guys took from Europe through Russia last fall where they crossed the border into North Korea on train and then on to the DPRK capital. It's amazing because this twice month train is not supposed to be available to tourists and because they got hundreds if not 1000s of photos of video from parts of N. Korea that have never been taken before. Because of the anomaly that let them in, they were basically without "guides" until they got to Pyongyang. It was a 13,000 km train trip.

He has it set up so you can follow the trip on google earth and youtube, which is why it is taking him a long time to get it all on-line. If you are not interested in the trip, where there also show both trams and metros, towards the end there is the part where he covers the return trip. (not finished) Apparently they had to take the traditional tourist train that goes back through Beijing instead of Russia. On that part, the N. Korean trains are attached to a Chinese train which is powered by a diesel-electric. Apparently the Chinese want to be punctual and because of that don't trust the N. Korean electrical system to be reliable enough to make this happen.

The author is transit enthusiast and has focused on all the different types of trains on the journey and especially in the Pyongyang transit system. They have a mysterious metro where most tourists have only seen 2 stations. It's a two line system, but the N. Koreans won't let outsiders use most of it and it is also believed that it is actually 2x to 3x larger than even the station maps show. More relevant to Charlotte however is in the tram system and especially in the areas where they are rebuilding it. It's worth a view if you have any interest in passenger trains for this reason.

[southslider]

On another note, I sincerely hope that CATS can wrangle a more appealing engine paint job than the Northstar.

Hmm, maybe that's the cost-saving idea. Think about it. "Northstar" for North Line, and purple paint scheme for the Purple Line.

[monsoon]

Hmmm.. that name reminds me of the older "RailStar" trains in Japan. An example. (english at 1:40)

[ChiefJoJo]

So the FTA will not allow light rail to operate on freight lines except in very rare cases. The NJ transit Riverview line (I think that is the name of it) is a fairly innovative diesel powered LRT type train that shares tracks with a freight line. They did this by getting an agreement that freight would only run at night when the passenger train wasn't running.

It's technically the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) that almost always makes the rules in a freight railroad environment such as the North Corridor, with rare exceptions, but you are correct on the reasoning that they do not want heavy and light vehicles operating in the same environment (tracks), unless there are very extensive safety measures taken.

Also regarding DMU's running on Freight tracks...Austin,TX is going to open their DMU service pretty soon. It will be the first system in the USA to run DMU on existing (and active) freight tracks.

The NJ River Line and the Austin Capital Metrorail both use essentially the same vehicle, a light DMU (GTW), built by Stadler and in both cases, they are designed to run on freight tracks with temporal (time) separation from heavy freight equipment.

http://www.riverline.com/images/gallery/trains/photo_19.jpg

http://allsystemsgo.capmetro.org/images/rail_photo1.jpg

Unless a time sharing arrangement were made (like NJ & Austin), it's very unlikely that CATS would be allowed to operate a non-FRA compliant vehicle on the Norfolk Southern tracks.

Edited June 11, 2009 by monsoon
Change images to links due to their size.

[New Name]

This may not be the place to ask, but...

If you are on 6th St. heading toward Gateway Village from Graham - and you pass under the freight tracks - there are two levels of bridges - I assume the upper level is the active tracks, and the lower level appears to be overgrown and unused... what is that lower level, where does it go? Here's the street view:

[monsoon]

It might not be new news, not sure, but Purdue announced yesterday that ~$20M in transit money is going to be given to Charlotte for the purpose of doing work on the city bus facility on North Davidson St. This is some of the money coming from the Obama stimulus plan.

[InitialD]

It might not be new news, not sure, but Purdue announced yesterday that ~$20M in transit money is going to be given to Charlotte for the purpose of doing work on the city bus facility on North Davidson St. This is some of the money coming from the Obama stimulus plan.

I really hope this includes a new paint job on the buildings. It has faded pretty bad.

[Comfort Food]

Lots of interesting information on this thread.

Is anyone aware if CATS plans to improve bus service to and in North Mecklenburg? I'm moving to Huntersville this summer, and while we would love to see the commuter rail go in, I've been disappointed that (apparently) the only bus service from H'ville to uptown is express bus during commuting hours only.

I do like the Village Rider concept, and wish they would expand it more or somehow combine the 3 routes into one. From where I'll be living, I'll be able to use the Rider to go to the CPCC North Campus, Northlake Mall, and the county library, but it sure would be nice to have the route include Birkdale Village, for example.

[New Name]

I really hope this includes a new paint job on the buildings. It has faded pretty bad.

Yep. Totally re-cladding the whole complex - brick facade I think if I remember. Very happy about this.

[uptownliving]

Lots of interesting information on this thread.

I do like the Village Rider concept, and wish they would expand it more or somehow combine the 3 routes into one. From where I'll be living, I'll be able to use the Rider to go to the CPCC North Campus, Northlake Mall, and the county library, but it sure would be nice to have the route include Birkdale Village, for example.

There are free transfers between the Village Riders...so you can get to Birkdale Village but you would have to make a transfer at the North County Library.

[Comfort Food]

There are free transfers between the Village Riders...so you can get to Birkdale Village but you would have to make a transfer at the North County Library.

Thanks

I figured there were free transfers. I would hope that they "stagger" the arrival schedules of the Riders so that you don't have to wait for a long time at the library for the next bus. I will be able to drive to BV in less than 10 minutes, but I'd be happy to take the bus if the trip could be done in less than, say, 30 minutes. Anything over that, not worth the bus.

[tozmervo]

^ Try putting your route into Google maps, which has CATS transit info now. It'll figure out the transfers for you.

[Comfort Food]

^ Try putting your route into Google maps, which has CATS transit info now. It'll figure out the transfers for you.

\

Very cool application, thanks for pointing that out. Looks like the entire trip is about 30 minutes, so it's a go!

[orulz]

This may not be the place to ask, but...

If you are on 6th St. heading toward Gateway Village from Graham - and you pass under the freight tracks - there are two levels of bridges - I assume the upper level is the active tracks, and the lower level appears to be overgrown and unused... what is that lower level, where does it go? Here's the street view:

That's an interesting question and I'm pretty sure this is the story...

The lower bridge was built in 1952 when Sixth Street was lowered beneath the tracks. Only Sixth St was grade separated at that time; the other crossings remained (Trade, 4th, and 5th, plus likely 2nd and 3rd as well.) About a decade later, as a part of a larger project, the entire Southern RR through Charlotte was raised. This was the same project that demolished the old station on W Trade and built the current station on N Tryon. For some reason unclear to me, rather than completely remove the 1952 bridge, the RR elected to leave it there. Maybe it was left to act as access to an industry or an old freight depot or something.

[New Name]

Yes. A freight locomotive which (and similiar CR locomotive) are built to much much heavier standards and nothing survives a collision with them except for maybe another locomotive. Freight and CR lines also operate at higher speeds and take longer distances to stop. A crash with a light weight EMU would look like a Honda civic hitting a semi truck. A single GE diesel-electric locomotive can easily weigh a 500,000 lbs when fueled and you might see several of these in tandem on a freight line. Compare that to the Lynx Siemens S70 which weighs 97,000 lbs.

So the FTA will not allow light rail to operate on freight lines except in very rare cases. The NJ transit Riverview line (I think that is the name of it) is a fairly innovative diesel powered LRT type train that shares tracks with a freight line. They did this by getting an agreement that freight would only run at night when the passenger train wasn't running.

A collision between a CR train and freight train would not be good either, but remember a CR train is essentially an Amtrak style train configured for short distance travel, and freight and passenger trains of this type have used the same tracks for the entire history train travel in the USA. Personally I think the FTA is overly conservative on this matter, but then again they have the difficult job in what they are being asked to do. At one time there used to be routine horrific accidents on US train lines. Yearly passenger death counts were running as high as 10,000-15,000, maybe even higher.

CATS has never said what kind of train they will use for the North CR line, but on one brochure I saw a few years ago, appeared to show a standard diesel electric locomotive, maybe a GE Genesis, pulling carriages. I heard David Carroll remark once about using a DMU but he was non-committal about it. I don't know if the FTA has finally qualified DMUs to run on freight so this might not be a possibility anyway.

Apparently, the San Diego Blue Line operates LTR on an active freight line at the southern portion of the line. Or so says wikipedia

[monsoon]

Apparently, the San Diego Blue Line operates LTR on an active freight line at the southern portion of the line. Or so says wikipedia

Can't say I am familiar with it except to note this line was the first LRT built in the USA and maybe there were no rules at the time to restrict it. I does seem that the city actually purchased the freight tracks so maybe they can control timing.

[tozmervo]

Today's Park Rd wreck elegantly demonstrates why, in 'Car v Bus,' Bus will always win.

[uptownliving]

The FTA is forcing CATS to sell some of its buses because they are not being used. This is all a result of the schedule reductions they have made this year.

[Bikeguy]

Today's Park Rd wreck elegantly demonstrates why, in 'Car v Bus,' Bus will always win.

According to the CMPD report, the estimated original driving speed of the car was 76 MPH, the estimated speed at impact was also 76 MPG. The bus was at a stop. The impact pushed it forward 6 ft...

[Spartan]

The FTA is forcing CATS to sell some of its buses because they are not being used. This is all a result of the schedule reductions they have made this year.

Hopefully they are some of the crappy old ones that were clearly part of the old CTA system. I didn't realize the FTA could do that though.

[InitialD]

Hopefully they are some of the crappy old ones that were clearly part of the old CTA system. I didn't realize the FTA could do that though.

In related news, I finally saw one of the hybrid buses. I am still confused; where these supposed to be doing the airport sprinter service? Have they canned that and put them into regular routes (this one was on a Freedom Dr. route) or are they in the process of upgrading buses on local routes as well?

Edited June 29, 2009 by InitialD

[monsoon]

^No, CATs has had these hybrids for a while. Tober authorized the purchase of two hybrid buses 2-3 years ago. I believe they might be doing runs into the East Charlotte area as part of the regular bus service. They decided not to purchase more of them due to the cost.

.....I didn't realize the FTA could do that though.

I've stated here many times the FTA will not look kindly on CATS when it asks for capital funding for transit while at the same time reducing service. While most here didn't believe me when I said that, and tossed out a bunch of irrelevant arguments as to why I was wrong, here is the proof, if it is true, that indeed they don't like it and will go back and look at how their money has been spent. CATS has gotten a lot of federal money for capital purchases of buses.

It will be especially problematic for CATS when they try to get the Feds to pony up at least $1/2 Billion for the next rail project all while they are cutting back. At least this forces them back into the real world.

[southslider]

I've stated here many times the FTA will not look kindly on CATS when it asks for capital funding for transit while at the same time reducing service.

Yet misery loves company, and virtually all transit agencies are currently in the same boat. Fortunately for CATS, there is change happening in Washington that will lead to many more New Starts projects, not fewer, as in years past.

[monsoon]

.....Fortunately for CATS, there is change happening in Washington that will lead to many more New Starts projects, not fewer, as in years past.

CATS misfortunes are of its own making. However I don't see any increase in funding headed in the direction of New Starts. Transit agencies still have to prove they are worthy of receiving federal money and a transit agency that is cutting service, because it doesn't know how to run a transit program, does not seem worthy at this time. To be fair, I place the blame squarely on the heads of the city council, the county council and the MTC for not sticking to any plans it makes in regards to TOD.