Jump to content

CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines


monsoon

Recommended Posts

I like that they show 2nd St. extended under the tacks and connecting to Cedar....that should help connectivity in that area a good bit.

Now, if J&W would put a little neighborhood retail in their future parking deck, then that could really turn a dead part of town into something much more connected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


More interesting for 3rd Ward is the location and siting of the Vehicle Maintenance Facility next to the current tracks. Included in the presentation is a rendering of what that building could look like.

Does anyone know if this has anything to do with the vacant/overgrown lot that was recently cleared next to the JWU dorms?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

very interesting article in tomorrow's (Aug 8) Wall Street Journal on Dubai selling corporate naming rights to stations and lines on its new rail transit system. The article suggests this is a first of its kind strategy and it may raise $200 million usd per year for the new system

http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB1218...2246222217.html (may be subscription limited -- sorry)

While I realize that this is an apples to oranges kind of comparison, Charlotte does have a similar corporate / political environment to Dubai. While I would be reluctant to do away with geographically sensible station or line names, it _might_ be an acceptable tradeoff for an immediate cash infusion to transit development.

Some excerpts (keeping in mind fair use doctrine):Deleted. UrbanPlanet Rules take precedence. Please read them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ I actually tried to do that (read the rules), but the link to them at the top of the page is not working.

"The error returned was:

Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken."

Edited by kermit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I personally don't agree with selling out like that. Also, I'm surprised that Dubai is having to finance it using that strategy. They have more money than God over there (or Allah... whatever).

Does anyone know if this has anything to do with the vacant/overgrown lot that was recently cleared next to the JWU dorms?

Nevermind. I found out that this is media parking for NFL events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guess what happens when you're laid up by allergies on a beautiful Saturday?

Maps happen. Charlotte 2030 in Google Maps.

Comments welcome. I've also permitted public collaboration (for the non-initiated, that means anyone can edit the map). What you see here is pulled right from the alignment maps/station lists available @ the 2030 website

edit: I originally set this up in Google Earth, and the translation into Google Maps was not a good one for the West Corridor, which has two overlapping routes (LRT & BRT). Unless someone else cleans that up, I'll try to get to it later.

Edited by tozmervo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ I actually tried to do that (read the rules), but the link to them at the top of the page is not working.

"The error returned was:

Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken."

This issue has been resolved, you should now be able to review our rules. To be fair though, the rules are posted when you sign up for an account with us so you should already be aware of what we do and do not allow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(this is from the LYNX thread. my response seemed more prudent over here given the 2030 applicability)

Obviously they drive out the way because it's their best means of getting into the city, cheaply, and without the congestion. Once the whole 2030 system is built out, it will serve all general areas of the metro and not force people to drive to the south, but instead just commute to their nearest line. What I was thinking is since the rail has not been completed on the remaining corridors, during large events such as Panthers games run buses that stage (similarly to the LYNX) to accommodate Panthers fans (or whatever the event is) to park-and-ride lots that are currently in place for express buses or possibly newly designated areas (depending on demand) to accommodate riders while not having to waste gas, money, and air quality to get to a South line station (which begins to defeat the features of having light rail all together). They could advertise with LYNX as a special service to attendees, and ultimately gain bus patrons that may be skeptical to utilize the system right now. I'm guilty of utilizing the south line when living in the North to get to various locations in S. End and uptown, but I guess I was just thinking more for the large events that only occur every so often (Speed Street, Panthers games, March Madness).

This kind of service is certainly not without precedent. In Knoxville, for football game days, KAT runs 5 special bus routes. They have special ticket pricing (ie, higher than regular bus fare), but compared to game day parking anywhere within one and a half miles, the buses are a steal, and they drop you off about a block from the stadium. The interesting question here is whether or not any of those patrons are more likely to use regular KAT service. My gut reaction is that they wouldn't be, but that's because KAT has atrocious bus service, whereas CATS actually has pretty good service (imo).

In the end, the availability of parking in uptown may be the downfall of special event busing there, but god knows I would use it to get to Verizon in a heartbeat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

After reading this article, I wonder if Charlotte may be better suited for something like the "Eco Ride" that is currently testing in Japan. $22 million per kilometer for Eco Ride is a lot, but compare that to roughly $54 million a mile for Lynx. Some may think this looks like a cheap amusement ride, but I think would look kinda cool, and definitely a first in the US.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for posting that. I always like seeing new transit technology. Chiba (the city) is a very densely packed place so this looks to be mostly designed for that kind of area.

There is a company that was working a similar type project closer here to Charlotte. They were claiming about $10 million/mile to build a system but that was in 1999 prices. The company is Futrix Inc. located in Charleston, SC that was working with the Clinton administration to build a monobeam system. They had built a scale system and were planning to build a full sized demonstration system in Charleston in the early 2000s, but the Bush administration cut off funding for this kind of transit.

It would solve a number of issues with ROW and costs if the technology had been developed, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont know what to make of that Senyo Kogyo test train in Japan. Will be interesting to see how their test train turns out.

But their initial numbers dont sound too good. $22M per km is the same as $36M per mile...or about $10M per mile less than Lynx cost. Then it says it will top out at 30 km/H....That is 19 mph... That thing is going to be slow. I'm not sure CATS should invest in something that is going to cost that much and be that slow.

Perhaps the Charlotte Airport could look at it for their People Mover project between the Parking Decks and Terminal.

Edited by uptownliving
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal today about how Congress is considering increases in transit funding in light of high gas prices, etc. It included some detail on some of the proposals currently being considered by the House and the Senate in connection with energy legislation that could be voted on as early as next week, including up to $2 billion in grants for transit agencies. Two billion doesn't sound like a whole lot to me (considering construction costs), but it's a start.

The article also contained a graph (statistics gathered by the American Public Transportaion Association) showing increases in transit usage over the last year broken down by mode (subway, commuter train, streetcar, bus, other) and the interesting thing is that all modes reflected roughly a 5% increase - EXCEPT STREETCARS, which saw an increase in useage of 12.3%!

I hope the prospect of additional federal funding combined with the statistics showing an increased demand for streetcar service will spur some reconsideration by CATS and the MTA of the priorities under the 2030 Plan and to put the Central Ave streetcar back on the front burner (ahead of the North line). I also hope this will alter the fed's perception of streetcars and that the federal government will be more willing to help finance streetcar projects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm personally starting to come to a point where I now agree with atlrvr's point 9 months ago about increasing the tax for transit. I guess we'll see what the study finds about funding the streetcar by the Charlotte. If they find a reasonable strategy for TIF or other financing, perhaps they can take that model to the extreme and figure out a way to add many more lines.

The bottom line is that I want the 2035 Plan to be much more agressive than the 2030 Plan, which was just a revision of the 2025 Plan. We need to add lines to SouthPark and Ballantyne, both significant employment zones that are excluded from the mass transit plans now. We also need to start looking at increasing streetcar transit (which have supposedly seen dramatic growth nationally with the gas prices, compared to other lines) to many of the denser neighborhoods in city.

Of course, in order to start dreaming about what a real transit system would look like, beyond just the skeletal spokes originally planned, we'll need to really hammer out how we'll add funding.

The bottom line is that we have hit a seismic shift in energy prices, and we need to start planning very well for energy scarcity, or risk being a city that becomes obsolete in a few decades. We have all had it proven to us that Charlotte CAN be a city that rides transit, and sustain that ridership. My feeling is that we should start the ball rolling soon, and once the NE line is under construction (hopefully) or nearing completion, we should have everything aligned for a speeding up the building of the spoke lines, and creating the budget for the new unplanned lines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Absolutely agree. With more gas problems from the hurricane, and energy being a HUGE talk this election on federal and state levels, it's a no brainer to keep dreaming, dream bigger, but most importantly follow through. I'll add that it could really be beneficial to expand the commuter lines (South extension to Rock Hill, for example) to include alternative state funding's (possibly SC adding into the funds) and alternative city, counties, and towns. A lot of these dreams will be pended upon what the turn out is with the presidential elections in November and the priority when granting federal funding and research. November is not far away... Hopefully we will see a lot more money coming our way for transit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll add that it could really be beneficial to expand the commuter lines (South extension to Rock Hill, for example) to include alternative state funding's (possibly SC adding into the funds) and alternative city, counties, and towns.

Thats an interesting idea that I had not thought of. If South Carolina were to contribute funds towards metro Charlotte transit, how would that happen? I very seriously doubt any taxpayers in SC are going to want to send money to an NC organization, even if its for transit. Seems to me that the MTC will need to become an entirely separate entity that is independent from the City and County in order for that to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats an interesting idea that I had not thought of. If South Carolina were to contribute funds towards metro Charlotte transit, how would that happen? I very seriously doubt any taxpayers in SC are going to want to send money to an NC organization, even if its for transit. Seems to me that the MTC will need to become an entirely separate entity that is independent from the City and County in order for that to happen.

Yeah I have no clue on the politics of these organizations. Just my general though process, which could be completely misleading, is by including more towns/cities/states, it provides add'l veins of funding and income that can be used towards transit funding. Even if SC provided funding from Rock Hill to the border and the funding for the few stations in SC in addition to Rock Hill, NC could pick up the remainder of the line. Sales from tickets would go to CATs still. Of course there are a lot of politics that's being missed but I think the concept could have some sort of merit, but again- I'm just expanding my vision beyond the current horizon, which I think is something that should be done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Recent times have really highlighted the risk of transit using undiversified fossil fuel sources. Our policy makers are now pushing for growth in off shore oil sources, at the same time as hurricanes have made those sources prone to outages. Obviously we've long known of the political instability of oil exporting countries. Last, there is growing consensus that we have reached peak oil, which means supplies are beginning a slow decline in contrast with the continued growth in demand.

Meanwhile, our electrical system is more diversified, with natural gas, nuclear and coal (all domestic sources, even though none are renewable). Then, consider that NC has added a standard to make a percentage of the electrical supply to be based on renewable resources.

I've always been of the opinion that the Southeast line should definitely be built as planned, as a bus rapid transit line. However, it appears that between now and when the Southeast line will begin engineering, it is likely that policy will shift in support of greater funds for transit. As a result of the convergence of those trends, I am now starting to shift my thinking to think that it may be worth pursuing a more agressive plan and building that line as light rail. I still wish it would be built on a different corridor, such as the Seaboard rail line, which could allow it to connect to the Blue Line behind the Alpha Mill, but I think a corridor shift would be politically impossible at this point.

I am really hoping for a decade of dramatic investment in transit in the group of cities to young to have benefited from massive transit investments in previous generations, but have grown large enough that they need transit to survive the era of energy scarcity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is interesting too that there are lots of consituents in SE Charlotte that believe LRT is the magic bullet for reviving Independence, whereas that is not the case at all from a land use perspective. I can definitely see the long-term energy benefits of LRT, but I think the details of making that happen leave it very much in doubt. To me, it does not make much sense to spend $200M+ extra (for LRT over BRT) taxpayer dollars for LRT in/next to what is essentially a freeway, where land use is not likely to be influenced to a significant degree to justify the cost, and especially when it's all contigent on 74 being improved past Albemarle Rd to I-485, which will take decades and probably $600M more.

W/R/T to the CSX line, I think I heard Keith Parker say in an interview that they had initially looked at that line, but there was a lot of resistance in the SF neighborhoods adjacent to the line. Plus, there isn't a whole lot of vacant or underused land for redevelopment (until you get to Matthews) like there is on Independence (dead stripmalls). I am guessing those were two of the factors that led to 74 & BRT being the LPA alignment & technology choice. Unless the whole corridor is completely rethought or the federal rules change (perhaps looking more at long term operating costs or how diesel buses might fit into a carbon cap system), I think it BRT is going to be the de facto choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Independence is stuck in a nebulous zone between "We need it to move cars more efficiently. Convert it to limited access freeway" and "Revitalize it and the adjoining neighborhoods." I think that there has got to be some political will to go all one way or all the other before anything fruitful can happen, as those two ideas really can't coexist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the use of the CSX corridor in the SE, it is admittedly a losing argument, because that decision won't be revisited at this point. But here are the positives in my view:

- A very easy connection with the Blue Line with an intersection behind Alpha Mill

- Further support for revitalization in the heart of Belmont (the city yards along Otts street is a significant opportunity for redevelopment)

- Allows for a transit connection and possibly revitalization in troubled Grier Heights

I will agree, though, that perhaps there is no competition for the fact that there is an immense amount of underutilized land along Independence. I just have had a hard time imagining the type of density we want being built along Independence, but I guess it is plausible with the right impetus for private investment.

It is actually fairly shocking to me that Independence wasn't bought up immediately (even by me) for speeding up when the road money freed up further down 74. They could have even just extended the scope of the project and kept that money in the pool for 74 from Idlewilde Rd to the town of Marshville. Speeding that up would lower the total cost, and would allow for the SE corridor to be built right up front rather than having to piece meal it to wait for the road money.

I still hold that this corridor should be electrified.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While we're at it, can we get someone with power to suggest the SEHSR be electrified as well?
I am sure they would love to. However when all of the Federal HSR project money was cut off in 2001, this project has limped along now for almost a decade on handouts from the NCDOT and to some extent the VADOT. I suspect we won't see any action on anytime soon except for maybe some kind of ROW acquisition. BTW, the design point, is only for 110 mph trains. About the speed of the trains in the USA 80 years ago.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anybody familiar with weridethebus.com? It seems to be run by <someone> for the purposes of collecting/encouraging public comment on CATS. While there isn't a whole lot of content, it does seem to be up to date. It also says that the new enhanced airport bus service will be called Sprinter

The O backs up the Sprinter name. Posted to the UP topic: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/Branding....html&st=20

Edited by tozmervo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   1 member

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.