CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Third Strike]

2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

It's becoming increasingly clear that they need to figure out how they'd like to cross Uptown east-west because that really needs taken into account as the Stonewall end and 11th St ends of uptown begin developing rapidly. That's a sizable ROW required that isn't going to appear out of thin air

How about using the alignment that's closer to I-277? It could run southwest of the Stonewall development, and Hill street could be reconfigured more towards the south to make way for the Silver Line. Heck, there's even an abandoned railroad line near the Charlotte Observer site that can be utilized. It also opens up the possibility of extending the line westward along US 74 towards the airport.

Otherwise, the only other option I can think of is either burying the Silver Line under Stonewall, or an elevated line, both of which can be costly.

[southslider]

The east-west alignment through Uptown is already built with the Blue Line.  It just needs to branch west at Carson and southeast at 12th.

[Nick2]

I wish they'd tunnel underneath stonewall. I can dream can't I?

But realistically, that wouldn't even be on the table due to cost would it?

[tusculan]

5 hours ago, Third Strike said:

How about using the alignment that's closer to I-277? It could run southwest of the Stonewall development, and Hill street could be reconfigured more towards the south to make way for the Silver Line. Heck, there's even an abandoned railroad line near the Charlotte Observer site that can be utilized. It also opens up the possibility of extending the line westward along US 74 towards the airport.

Otherwise, the only other option I can think of is either burying the Silver Line under Stonewall, or an elevated line, both of which can be costly.

I think that the silver line should not try to parallel the Brookshire freeway either on 11th or 12th, as that would be a mess to redesign all of that. I think that there are only 2 proposals that really make sense - Option 1: go to the south side of uptown via Charlottetown, and then head west on Stonewall. Stonewall is a wide street that could handle a 32 ft right of way down the middle of it, it is not as busy (foot traffic wise) as other crosstown streets immediately north, and it already has an interchange with the Lynx Blue Line. I like the idea stated above that a possible option in this corridor is to move the line to the south toward the Belk freeway after Caldwell, push Hill St. further south and link up with the tracks by the Observer that ultimately run around the south stands of Bank of America Stadium. I like this idea mostly because it provides a way out of the west end of uptown, though the tracks would probably be diverted so that they don't head north along the NCRR up to Gateway, but rather south or west near Morehead. If that option isn't used, then getting the Silver Line out of uptown becomes a bit trickier....since you don't want to head north up Graham, you either need to cut south through a parking lot to turn onto Mint, cut south in a rather tight window around the west side of Bank of America Stadium, or head west through the old outlet for the P & N by the Panthers practice field. 

These alignments are all desirable in my estimate, especially as they provide an easy stop for Panther games, and an easy outlet out of uptown to head west to the airport. However, its a bit of an awkward alignment especially as regards transfers to the Gold Line - only happening outside of uptown in Elizabeth --and no connection to transit centers -either the CTC or the new Gateway station.

Option 2 that I suggest is for the use of the 7th street corridor from Charlottetown to the NCRR. In First ward, a sizable amount of this corridor is next to parking lots, so there is allowance for growth either of businesses or ROW additions. It would then cross the Blue Line and head toward Tryon St. after Tryon, however, 7th street becomes only 2 lanes of traffic, and eventually stops in 4th ward at the park. I would advocate closing 7th street in 4th ward to automobile traffic, and have solely the silver line along a pedestrian corridor. After reaching Smith St., the track could turn southward and run parallel the NCRR to Gateway, where it would also meet with the Gold Line.

The advantage of this corridor is better connecting service to the Gold line and Gateway, better service to more of uptown's museums,  it involves the construction of a pedestrian corridor, and it makes for a denser swath of uptown that is served by rail transit. The walk from Trade St. to 7th is only a couple of minutes, and by increasing the density of the transit in uptown, you provide a guide for development and for people to visit uptown.

[LKN704]

All this is theoretical, but I do wonder what the total cost analysis of building the line underground through Uptown would be. The tunnel wouldn't need to be too long, probably only a mile at most, containing two-three stations. While building lines underground is often seen as an antiquated, 20th century option, Seattle and Los Angeles both have large underground light rail projects involving TBMs. I could see the tracks descending below street level somewhere near Graham Street, before ascending somewhere near Siegle Ave. Stations could be at Government Center, Trade/Tryon (access to CTC), and at the Gateway Station.

I also wonder if TBM would be necessary-I am under the impression that tunnels from former mines are already situated below Uptown, and these could be possibly excavated for transit purposes.

Just a crazy thought.

Also, I do hope the CATS rebrands the Silver Line. It's too similar to the Gold Line in naming-let Gold/Silver be used for streetcar operations. They seem to like Purple on the line maps, rename it the Purple Line or the Green Line.

[southslider]

The cheaper the option through Uptown can be, then the more likely the next line won't just end Uptown, but actually continue through Uptown, connecting more of Charlotte.

In other words, leveraging the existing Blue Line may mean realizing an east-west line as part of the next LYNX project, rather than building an east line and west line separately.

[cjd5050]

Here is a really good study on the cost benefits of putting a tunnel rather than above ground light rail in a dense urban area, among other things:

http://ac.els-cdn.com/0886779889900291/1-s2.0-0886779889900291-main.pdf?_tid=fd34ae3a-8707-11e6-9e6f-00000aacb361&acdnat=1475238086_8b30cb7ebaa0b92c0852d35c94ae93cb

I think Charlotte most closely resembles Philadelphia in terms of potential for how you mixed above ground rail and tunnels.  Septa goes under in a similar cross pattern like Charlotte will eventually but of course as these line run through the Philly core they are underground.  

It's projected that by 2030 the metro population for Charlotte will be 2.74 million which might be enough to force the consideration of improving the volume and speed of mass transit beyond what light rail can provide.  Also by 2030 Spectrum Center/Time Warner Arena will be 27 years old, making it reasonable to consider a replacement arena for the region and opening up this large parcel for a central hub...regardless of what happens with the Gateway station.  

 

[kermit]

I do agree that while we are in the building stage cheaper is often better. However interlining the Silver and Blue lines through uptown would create a pretty huge mess at the grade crossings of MLK, 5th etc. If you plan on 5 minute peak frequency for both lines then the gates would come down for trains every 75 seconds and stay down for 30ish  (?) seconds each train. This seems pennywise but....

[tozmervo]

The other major issue with sharing lines is that it can (and will) cause times that both lines are disrupted. Problems on one line can cause delays on another line, etc. Keeping the tracks separate would help eliminate that issue and create much better schedule reliability. 

[orulz]

The Belk Freeway right-of-way is so wide, couldn't they just realign/remove some more of the ramps, and allocate some of the space currently used for collector/distributor lanes and/or grassy berms to the light rail? This would put the light rail about 500 feet south of Stonewall in a very fast, fully grade-separated corridor. Then, when it's time to cap the Belk Freeway, boom - instant subway.

[caterpillar2]

5 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

Here is a really good study on the cost benefits of putting a tunnel rather than above ground light rail in a dense urban area, among other things:

http://ac.els-cdn.com/0886779889900291/1-s2.0-0886779889900291-main.pdf?_tid=fd34ae3a-8707-11e6-9e6f-00000aacb361&acdnat=1475238086_8b30cb7ebaa0b92c0852d35c94ae93cb

I think Charlotte most closely resembles Philadelphia in terms of potential for how you mixed above ground rail and tunnels.  Septa goes under in a similar cross pattern like Charlotte will eventually but of course as these line run through the Philly core they are underground.  

It's projected that by 2030 the metro population for Charlotte will be 2.74 million which might be enough to force the consideration of improving the volume and speed of mass transit beyond what light rail can provide.  Also by 2030 Spectrum Center/Time Warner Arena will be 27 years old, making it reasonable to consider a replacement arena for the region and opening up this large parcel for a central hub...regardless of what happens with the Gateway station.  

 

Every time I drive from the lake into Charlotte via I-77 I see the construction area between north and southbound traffic and think of how wonderfully a subway (tube) wold work there. The land is open unobstructed only by overpasses for which the subway could go under.  Unfortunately, I would 90 before a Charlotte Metro would be in place probably. 

 

[LKN704]

The other issue I wonder about is raising the current half-cent sales tax. Most Charlotteans and politicians I have spoken to are in favor of extending light rail, yet I have never personally addressed the issue of the county raising taxes to fund rail expansion. I know Denver has had a lot of success with their FasTracks program- the light rail and commute rail system in Denver really exploded within the last few years. Likewise, Metro in Los Angeles has completed a lot of successful expansion under Measure R, which raised sales taxes in LA County by a half cent.

I truly believe that tunneling under Charlotte is something that at least ought to be considered as the Silver Line moves forward, which I don't think it can do unless the city raises taxes.

PS: The new CATS website on the City website is so 2002, and embarrassing for CATS. Compare this http://charlottenc.gov/cats/Pages/default.aspx with LA metro's  www.metro.net

Edited September 30, 2016 by LKN704

[tozmervo]

For whatever reason, the CATS website translated badly to the new format, which otherwise seems to work fairly well. 

As for the sales tax, the impediment now is a state restriction on raising sales taxes. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe CLT is at the maximum cap the state allows (as of a couple years ago)

[kermit]

^ yes, this is true. I think Mecklenburg may be 1/4 cent above the state maximum but we were grandfathered since our transit tax existed before the NCGA decided to micromanage municipalities.

Our current legislature certainly isn't going to decide to help us out with anything.

[ChessieCat]

Dallas has successfully built underground LRT stations without breaking the bank using cut-and-cover.  TOD has occured all along the corridor.  I honestly think the Silver Line has no choice but to go underground if they want to avoid grade crossing hell in uptown during rush hour.

[southslider]

^Grade-crossing trains cross congested streets easily with control gates that stop all traffic.

If worried about motorists stopping every 2.5 minutes (5 minute frequencies in each direction), that's still less frequent than how often traffic signals change for cross streets.  And fortunately, all the higher-volume streets are already grade-separated, like 3rd and 4th Streets.

Edited September 30, 2016 by southslider

[Nick2]

Just the part along stonewall would have to be underground for that plan. It could be above ground just outside of uptown or even just outside of the main CBD. It could come back above ground by the stadium.

I think I remember this being discussed before and don't remember specifics but could these tacks be utilized in any way?

Uptown Tunnel/Tracks Google maps

 

[cjd5050]

18 hours ago, LKN704 said:

The other issue I wonder about is raising the current half-cent sales tax. Most Charlotteans and politicians I have spoken to are in favor of extending light rail, yet I have never personally addressed the issue of the county raising taxes to fund rail expansion.

Not sure I would be expecting support from those who are going to be impacted on the 77 Toll Lanes.  Would not be surprised to see an outright opposition effort for a tax increase to run a line South honestly.  That said, I think once the blue line opens and a couple years of -gentrification- transit oriented development happens, the proof of returns will be there to help sell the idea.

[SgtCampsalot]

41 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

That said, I think once the blue line opens and a couple years of -gentrification- transit oriented development happens, the proof of returns will be there to help sell the idea.

Side note: I'm fascinated by what seems to be on the horizon for that middle BLE segment between University City and Old Concord Rd. UC is too built-out and not ready for infill, so that mid-way stretch is very promising.

[jednc]

4 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

Not sure I would be expecting support from those who are going to be impacted on the 77 Toll Lanes.  Would not be surprised to see an outright opposition effort for a tax increase to run a line South honestly.  That said, I think once the blue line opens and a couple years of -gentrification- transit oriented development happens, the proof of returns will be there to help sell the idea.

 

I am both a transit supported and also one of those LKN residents who will be impacted by the I-77 tolls. While I don't directly link the tolls and any plan to increase the tax to build more mass transit (trains/light rail), I will say I have less good will regarding paying more taxes but continuing to be "put on the back burner" as far as the Red Line goes. I understand all the issues that stand in the way of the Red Line, I just don't understand how CATS didn't fully understand all of that before they promised a timeline for the Red Line. It feels a lot like bait and switch. Since it was promised (and by my reckoning it was), CATS needs to suck it up and make it happen. As far as I'm concerned, all options are on the table, including buying ROW and installing dedicated track if that's what it takes to make it happen. The toll lanes simply make it more mandatory that CATS follow through on their original promise. After all. the Red Line was supposed to be prioritized before the BLE. Now. it seems to be falling down the list below the Silver Line. It's time for CATS to step up and keep their word. Build the Red Line and then I fully support an increase in the transit tax so we can get more projects moving. Otherwise, what am I paying the transit tax for?

[Third Strike]

4 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Side note: I'm fascinated by what seems to be on the horizon for that middle BLE segment between University City and Old Concord Rd. UC is too built-out and not ready for infill, so that mid-way stretch is very promising.

I like how the properties along US 29 is now closer to the road. It feels more inviting to pedestrians now. There's also several empty lots along this stretch, so infill could happen at a rapid pace, especially since there could be a demand from students that want to live half way between the university and Uptown.

[LKN704]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 1:39 PM, jednc said:

I am both a transit supported and also one of those LKN residents who will be impacted by the I-77 tolls. While I don't directly link the tolls and any plan to increase the tax to build more mass transit (trains/light rail), I will say I have less good will regarding paying more taxes but continuing to be "put on the back burner" as far as the Red Line goes. I understand all the issues that stand in the way of the Red Line, I just don't understand how CATS didn't fully understand all of that before they promised a timeline for the Red Line. It feels a lot like bait and switch. Since it was promised (and by my reckoning it was), CATS needs to suck it up and make it happen. As far as I'm concerned, all options are on the table, including buying ROW and installing dedicated track if that's what it takes to make it happen. The toll lanes simply make it more mandatory that CATS follow through on their original promise. After all. the Red Line was supposed to be prioritized before the BLE. Now. it seems to be falling down the list below the Silver Line. It's time for CATS to step up and keep their word. Build the Red Line and then I fully support an increase in the transit tax so we can get more projects moving. Otherwise, what am I paying the transit tax for?

Very well said, and I 100% agree with you. I'm sure you're not the only one who feels this way. Have you ever addressed this concern to CATS?

[southslider]

Tell it to Norfolk Southern. Red Line was a priority until the railroad became unreasonable.

[LKN704]

I was also under the impression that the Red Line was unfeasible in its current (or former) proposed form because of the lack of federal funding. I think I remember reading that the Red Line wouldn't qualify for funding because of low projected ridership.

[southslider]

Red Line (fka Purple) remained a local priority, despite lacking a high rating for New Starts. But that always assumed shared, albeit upgraded, freight/commuter tracks. Once Norfolk Southern demanded entirely separate tracks completely off their right-of-way, the project became way too costly.

Edited October 3, 2016 by southslider