CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[jednc]

18 hours ago, southslider said:

Tell it to Norfolk Southern. Red Line was a priority until the railroad became unreasonable.

 

18 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I was also under the impression that the Red Line was unfeasible in its current (or former) proposed form because of the lack of federal funding. I think I remember reading that the Red Line wouldn't qualify for funding because of low projected ridership.

 

11 hours ago, southslider said:

Red Line (fka Purple) remained a local priority, despite lacking a high rating for New Starts. But that always assumed shared, albeit upgraded, freight/commuter tracks. Once Norfolk Southern demanded entirely separate tracks completely off their right-of-way, the project became way too costly.

The biggest point I was trying to make is that CATS should have had some of this lined up before making promises they couldn't keep. They knew they would need to use Norfolk Southern Rail lines so why in the world wouldn't they have that negotiated before they started having demonstration rides and touting this line as a reason for North Mecklenburg residents to vote for the transit tax. It just feels like complete incompetence or absolutly bait and switch. At this point I want them to fulfill their promise regardless of what issues have come up since they made it. Without the Red Line it just makes me wonder what I'm getting out of the transit tax that I pay every time I spend money in Mecklenburg County.

21 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Very well said, and I 100% agree with you. I'm sure you're not the only one who feels this way. Have you ever addressed this concern to CATS?

No I have not and you make an excellent point! I should do that since I seem to be more than willing to complain here.

[elrodvt]

I assume there are a lot of other communities paying into this and not getting a rail line? 

Anyway, I watched it play out the same in Denver for the Boulder line (too expensive for the ridership not the rail per se). Now it's going to be nice new express buses on HOA but many still feel like "they didn't get what they paid for" and they didn't step even up and do rapid bus platforms as far as I know.

Maybe your best bet now is to advocate for the best rapid bus service (with raised platforms) you can get? As I understand it the 77 HOA/Toll is being build without rapid bus platforms and fly overs for pedestrians which seems like a missed opportunity. Is it too late to fix that? Does the contract prohibit construction to add some rapid bus platforms? 

I've read several times about city/transit officials going on trips to study other cities hits and misses. Does anything at all ever come of that? Doesn't seem like it.

Edited October 3, 2016 by elrodvt

[southslider]

The promise was to upgrade the shared tracks in a little used corridor, mostly to the benefit of freight traffic. It's a very common model nationally. Just in this case, a very stubborn owner isn't cooperating.

And sadly, it is too late for in-line BRT stations along I-77. Any such project will now need to build supplemental ramps (like Stumptown Rd) and off-line stations (like Park-and-Rides). At this point, even regular express bus service risks being stuck in congestion, both during construction when the HOV lane closes, and post-construction, when the new "express lanes" help buses reach the Huntersville clog all that much faster.

[ChessieCat]

 

12 hours ago, southslider said:

The promise was to upgrade the shared tracks in a little used corridor, mostly to the benefit of freight traffic. It's a very common model nationally. Just in this case, a very stubborn owner isn't cooperating.

^NS already doesn't like the passenger traffic along the NCRR.  I've always seen their freight trains including intermodals parked on the sidings when traveling on the Piedmont to and from Raleigh.  The double-tracking will ease congestion but it's easy to see why NS wants NCDOT to pay for the CSX grade separation and for CATS to pay for double-tracking the Red Line in case they lose the NCRR contract.

[UPNoDa]

OK, so after digging around for transit on other State's forums (primarily Florida) I find that there has to be valid reason that we do not have our Red Line up and running. We have discussed the RedLine hurdles many times in the past, (NIMBY's, I-77 toll priority, e.t.c.) but it seems that we are still in a fog on this one and I wanted to point out some things for comparison's sake. 

Orlando's SunRail opened in 2014 with an expansion already underway for an additional 13 miles bringing that total to 74 miles of commuter rail in Central Florida. Here in the Piedmont, Google shows we are only 27.9 miles to downtown Mooresville from Center City Charlotte,  so adding a mile or so for the existing CSX tracks would put us at 30 miles or so. I cannot verify if SunRail has secured the remaining $35m in federal funding needed to start the expansion, but if the total cost for their project is around $93m, I see no reason why we could not secure funding for what appears to be only half of the needed infrastructure to get commuter rail to Lake Norman.  Obviously, CSX in Florida agreed to something from a ROW perspective but what could that be exactly? I am aware that in Florida, tourism and tourism dollars was a factor taken into consideration, however, they advertise SunRail as "Commuter Rail" for locals and not so much for getting tourist to theme parks so I don't believe that any tourism dollars were utilized. From a population perspective, the 2015 US Census has Orlando at 2.3m and Charlotte Metro at almost 2.5m so doesn't having a larger metro base account for something? According to the wiki statement below, that project was funded by federal, state and local monies. (see underlined)  so I'm still baffled by why our RedLine has not been a priority.

 SunRail is a commuter rail system in the Greater Orlando, Florida area. Service began on May 1, 2014 Phase 1 comprises 31 miles (50 km) with 12 stations along the former CSX Transportation "A" Line connecting Volusia County and Orange County through Downtown Orlando. The extensions proposed for Phase 2 would add a new northern termius at DeLand and four more stations southward, terminating at Poinciana in Osceola County. It is expected to be fully completed sometime in 2017 Formerly known as "Central Florida Commuter Rail", the SunRail system is financed by the state and Federal governments and the counties it serves

 

So, my thinking was that if we have all of these items in place and CSX doesn't want to play, maybe we could take some notes from Orlando and see exactly what contract stipulations they negotiated with to secure that project on the existing ROW /tracks. Surely we are missing something.

[tozmervo]

The wikipedia page has a decent summary of the Red Line history and issues (unfortunately many of the references are dead links now). To your point, one would think there would be more to N-S just flat out saying "no," but that appears to be the case. With that declaration, the cost of the line jumped from $416 to $616 million and it died on the vine. 

[UPNoDa]

Thanks toz, but that begs another question. Why such a large variance in cost? Not trying to beat a dead horse, but with the math indicated above, seems theres no way a 30 mile line in NC should cost more than a 60+ mile line in Central Florida especially if using the same contractor.  By those numbers, we could have built and completed the RedLine for under $100m. How in the world did the cost for such a short line exceed almost half a billion?  Insane to say the least. Guess I'm just jealous of Orlando!

[tozmervo]

Without researching, I'm not sure how much of SunRail was on preexisting line or got to use preexisting parking.

There has been criticism on UP of the cost with seemingly overly elaborate station/platform designs, etc. I'm not sure to what extent there was additional ROW acquisition or road crossing improvements. Loosing access to the N-S line certainly meant far more ROW needed for brand new rail line, not to mention having to rebuild every grade crossing on the route. You could look at the Music City Star in Nashville as a line that was built for a paltry amount of money, but it also has pretty sad ridership for the mileage. 

[ChessieCat]

^Let's not forget that NCDOT declined to spend budgeted $$ on the NS/CSX grade separation at Graham Interlocking (ADM), which for all intensive purposes spelled doom for the Red Line.  Plus Gateway Station still needs to be built which NS won't allow without triple or quadruple trackage at the proposed location.

Edited October 5, 2016 by ChessieCat

[cjd5050]

So someone from Atlanta posted on Reddit a study on High Speed Rail between Atlanta and Charlotte.  Here is the study.  

This line got me thinking from the perspective of NS as it relates to 'working with' passenger rail.  If NS was to make concessions for just light rail I think it's safe to assume the budget to purchase those concessions would be considerably less than the payoff from a federal high speed rail project.  No?   Also, I assume that once these concessions are made for light rail it would be difficult or not possible for NS to go back to the well and get paid for High Speed rail.

I could be wrong but it feels like NS is simply holding out for a larger payday on an eventual federal high speed rail project.  If you were the CEO of NS...wouldn't you look at it the same way?  They don't have any concern for passenger travel and as a company they think in the long term....so just wait it out and maximize the payoff.  Even if HS rail is killed...simply by waiting the price to make concessions for light rail also improves.  No matter how you look at it they make money by stalling.

[ChessieCat]

On 10/5/2016 at 9:16 AM, cjd5050 said:

So someone from Atlanta posted on Reddit a study on High Speed Rail between Atlanta and Charlotte.  Here is the study.  

This line got me thinking from the perspective of NS as it relates to 'working with' passenger rail.  If NS was to make concessions for just light rail I think it's safe to assume the budget to purchase those concessions would be considerably less than the payoff from a federal high speed rail project.  No?   Also, I assume that once these concessions are made for light rail it would be difficult or not possible for NS to go back to the well and get paid for High Speed rail.

I could be wrong but it feels like NS is simply holding out for a larger payday on an eventual federal high speed rail project.  If you were the CEO of NS...wouldn't you look at it the same way?  They don't have any concern for passenger travel and as a company they think in the long term....so just wait it out and maximize the payoff.  Even if HS rail is killed...simply by waiting the price to make concessions for light rail also improves.  No matter how you look at it they make money by stalling.

The fact is NS likes in when the taxpayer pays for upgrades to its system.  About 50% of the new intermodal terminal at Charlotte airport was paid for by taxpayers at all levels.  The current Blue Line corridor was abandoned by NS and purchased by CATS.  NCRR double-tracking from Harrisburg to Charlotte is paid for by NCDOT and NCRR.  The CSX grade separation was supposed to by paid for by NCDOT.  Who can blame NS for holding out for more when it comes to the Red Line?

[southslider]

^Except Red Line would have upgraded their tracks at taxpayer expense.  Their demands for entirely parallel tracks means virtually no upgrades to their existing tracks, which are in rather poor condition.

Edited October 6, 2016 by southslider

[Brother Otto]

On 10/6/2016 at 11:20 AM, ChessieCat said:

The fact is NS likes in when the taxpayer pays for upgrades to its system.  About 50% of the new intermodal terminal at Charlotte airport was paid for by taxpayers at all levels.  The current Blue Line corridor was abandoned by NS and purchased by CATS.  NCRR double-tracking from Harrisburg to Charlotte is paid for by NCDOT and NCRR.  The CSX grade separation was supposed to by paid for by NCDOT.  Who can blame NS for holding out for more when it comes to the Red Line?

The double tracking from Harrisburg to Charlotte was paid for with USDOT American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) funds----the $520M that the state received in 2009.    The mainline grade separation project was to be paid with ARRA grants as well.  NCDOT, USDOT, and NCRR paid for the Sugar Creek Road grade separation. 

NS is very strategic and is often skeptical about taking government money because it comes with strings attached.  It just so happened that the  three double tracking projects between Greensboro and Charlotte (CP Bowers to CP Lake, CP Reid to CP N. Kannapolis, and CP Haydock to CP Juncker) which are being paid for by the ARRA funds lined up with NS' vision for the Crescent Corridor.  RTC modeling identified the improvements needed to add two Piedmont round trips and NS got a completely double-tracked corridor with more crossing closures, grade separations, and curve improvements from east of Gastonia to north of Greensboro.

In regards to the O-Line---that is NS' only connection between Charlotte and Greensboro, that they actually own.  Thus, they are extremely protective over it---as they lease the NCRR. Their request for a separate parallel route for the Red Line allows them to control their line.  Accepting money to upgrade the line would require a service agreement that means they would have to prioritize commuter trains during peak workday hours, limiting their operations to primarily evening, night, and early morning use along the O-Line.  This impacts scheduling of trains across their network.

 

[Brother Otto]

On 10/5/2016 at 8:40 AM, ChessieCat said:

^Let's not forget that NCDOT declined to spend budgeted $$ on the NS/CSX grade separation at Graham Interlocking (ADM), which for all intensive purposes spelled doom for the Red Line.  Plus Gateway Station still needs to be built which NS won't allow without triple or quadruple trackage at the proposed location.

$120M was budgeted in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) grant for the Mainline Grade Separation Project.  That $120M needed to pay for the following:

• a 3,400' long trench w/ a single CSXT track, but wide enough to accommodate a second mainline track---trench needed to be deep enough to accommodate double stack containers
• temporary realignment of the CSXT SF-Line to maintain CSXT traffic during construction
• temporary realignment of the NS Mainline ( which would have had to be two tracks) and a new temporary interlocking with the SF-Line
• new connections from NS and CSXT to the ADM flour mill
• O-Line bridge over the trench and two additional roadway bridges over the trench.......
• a new flour load out facility for ADM----which requires extensive modifications to the existing ADM flour mill

 All of this for $120M!!! 

The biggest challenge was that you had a project that impacted three Fortune 500 companies, ADM, CSXT, and NS-----but none of them wanted it.  The project would have required agreements with all three corporations.  ADM wanted a brand new flour mill.....NS didn't need the project b/c the controlled the interlocking.....CSXT wanted a double track trench---but really didn't need the project.  Even with the expected growth of freight traffic, additional passenger trains through Graham due to relocating the passenger station to the Gateway Station site, and future commuter trains, there are still at-grade rail crossings in Chicago, Fort Worth, and Colton, CA (now grade separated) that see waaaay more trains.  The Mainline Grade Separation was a great project, but the finances, corporate challenges, and ARRA grant timeline requirements made it a difficult project to carry through design, right of way acquisition and construction.

[ChessieCat]

18 hours ago, Brother Otto said:

$120M was budgeted in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) grant for the Mainline Grade Separation Project.  That $120M needed to pay for the following:

• a 3,400' long trench w/ a single CSXT track, but wide enough to accommodate a second mainline track---trench needed to be deep enough to accommodate double stack containers
• temporary realignment of the CSXT SF-Line to maintain CSXT traffic during construction
• temporary realignment of the NS Mainline ( which would have had to be two tracks) and a new temporary interlocking with the SF-Line
• new connections from NS and CSXT to the ADM flour mill
• O-Line bridge over the trench and two additional roadway bridges over the trench.......
• a new flour load out facility for ADM----which requires extensive modifications to the existing ADM flour mill

 All of this for $120M!!! 

The biggest challenge was that you had a project that impacted three Fortune 500 companies, ADM, CSXT, and NS-----but none of them wanted it.  The project would have required agreements with all three corporations.  ADM wanted a brand new flour mill.....NS didn't need the project b/c the controlled the interlocking.....CSXT wanted a double track trench---but really didn't need the project.  Even with the expected growth of freight traffic, additional passenger trains through Graham due to relocating the passenger station to the Gateway Station site, and future commuter trains, there are still at-grade rail crossings in Chicago, Fort Worth, and Colton, CA (now grade separated) that see waaaay more trains.  The Mainline Grade Separation was a great project, but the finances, corporate challenges, and ARRA grant timeline requirements made it a difficult project to carry through design, right of way acquisition and construction.

Damm your 3 posts on UP have been insightful beyond belief.  You need to post more brah!!!

[Spartan]

 

On 10/4/2016 at 4:42 PM, tozmervo said:

Without researching, I'm not sure how much of SunRail was on preexisting line or got to use preexisting parking.

There has been criticism on UP of the cost with seemingly overly elaborate station/platform designs, etc. I'm not sure to what extent there was additional ROW acquisition or road crossing improvements. Loosing access to the N-S line certainly meant far more ROW needed for brand new rail line, not to mention having to rebuild every grade crossing on the route. You could look at the Music City Star in Nashville as a line that was built for a paltry amount of money, but it also has pretty sad ridership for the mileage. 

Exactly. In order to double track the O-line you'd have to buy ROW along the entire length of the line, relocate a significant portion of Graham St to the east (potentially including an interstate interchange), reconfigure quite a few intersections, there would likely be some grade separations or bridges needed, and you'd have to add safety features (crossing guards) at  $1m per crossing. That alone would likely be half of the cost increase. Then there's paying for the construction of the new track itself...

[kermit]

Autry is right, WTF is taking so long? And why aren't protected bike lanes part of our long-term transportation plans?

Edited November 14, 2016 by kermit

[kermit]

It was really just a formality but the MTC has officially approved a routing and the use of LRT for the Silver Line.

http://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/Pages/silver-line.aspx?platform=hootsuite

Even they agree the Red Line is dead.

[kermit]

The latest FTA quarterly report from CATS should be out by now. Unfortunately Charmeck.org has dramatically restructured their web site and I am no longer able to find any past or present quarterly reports. I also had no response to several emails requesting  a link to the latest report. 

I am like a junkie who needs a fix, does anyone know anyone at CATS who might provide a link?

[kermit]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:44 AM, kermit said:

The latest FTA quarterly report from CATS should be out by now. Unfortunately Charmeck.org has dramatically restructured their web site and I am no longer able to find any past or present quarterly reports. I also had no response to several emails requesting  a link to the latest report. 

I am like a junkie who needs a fix, does anyone know anyone at CATS who might provide a link?

A junkie always gets his fix. I found the December report here: http://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/Documents/FTA/FTA-Quarterly-Agenda-161208.pdf#search=FTA quarterly agenda

A few quick notes:

• Gold Line ridership is down 16% from last October. Reliability issues appear to be taking a toll.
• BLE remains well underbudget
• Last BLE vehicle will be delivered in January. Three of the new vehicle sets have completed their 1000 mile 'burn' in testing
• BLE projected revenue service date is listed as August 1
• Stations are scheduled to be complete in March 2017
• The TIGER III Blue Line Capacity Enhancement project was completed on December 1
• Phase 1 of the Gold line appears to have been $4 million _under_ budget (pdf p 101) -- IIRC some of that will be used for art on Phase 2
• Phase 2 of the GL has a currently estimated revenue service date of December 31 2019 (pdf 110)
• Delivery of first Phase 2 vehicle is March 2019 (although the contract has not yet been signed)
• Duke appears to be paying for 40% of utility relocation costs (pdf 146)
• Blue Line Core Capacity Enhancement (finishing the 3 car platforms) will be a design-build contract. Preliminary engineering should be complete in January (150)
• Gateway Station: The track and signals project should receive $27 million (of the $45 million needed) from the STI program from the State this summer (the station ranked well in the new STI criteria) (154). It will also receive $15 million from "STP Direct Allocation funds" (I don't know what that is). This leaves $3million of money that needs to be found. No schedule information was offered on the Gateway project
• Silver Line: Nice sat image of the 6 uptown alignment options that will be investigated (pdf 158). Uptown alignments decision will need to wait on a "system integration / West Corridor Study"  "CATS was directed by the MTC to begin a System Integration/West Corridor alternative analysis study by Spring 2017."
• North Corridor Mobility Study (e.g. BRT for the Lake Area): 10 additional express bus runs will be made for construction mitigation purposes
• North Corridor Mobility Study: project will be announced to public in the next month with a recommendation for enhanced bus service made in June
• $1.5 million was budgeted for a refresh of the 2030 plan (part of the West corridor study mentioned above) (pdf 161)
• Red Line: part of the 2030 refresh discussion (pdf 161) included this sentence: "Ongoing discussions with USDOT and the railroads to determine how to implement the long-term solution of commuter rail (LYNX Red Line) in the North Corridor."
• Regional transit discussions are ramping up again (162)

Notable omissions:

• No discussion of replica streetcar reliability issues on Gold Line phase 1
• No discussion of bike integration with new service

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by kermit

[Guest]

Man, if the line took the Matthews through Metropolitan, down Stonewall, and then out to the airport route. I think it would be wildly successful.

[atlrvr]

I'd rather see that route be done as Streetcar, using the Kenilworth/Scott pairing, then turning from Stonewall onto Graham, then Statesville Ave up to the Double Oaks redevelopment.

For LRT, using the Brookshire alignment (burying both the highway) and running LRT above at grade with surface streets, then I-77 (or the future red line) alignment, then Wilkinson....that would really change the north side of uptown......secondly, I'd the blue line and this silver line routing togetther, via a Carson St alignment.....think "Green Line" that goes from (I-485/South Blvd) up to Bland, then cutting west to serve the West Side of uptown, parallel to the existing blue line, then cutting East and crossing the Blue Line where Brookshire is today, before going out Independence.

You get basically a whole extra routing (the new Green line i menion) and spur the transit-accessible portions of Uptown (plus serve music factory if that's important), and ink Uptown to North End, for not a ton of extra capital cost.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Man, if the line took the Matthews through Metropolitan, down Stonewall, and then out to the airport route. I think it would be wildly successful.

yea, I completely agree. Other than the Blue Line sharing route, the Stonewall option provides the most one-seat ride opportunities to uptown (plus it offers a nice Gold Line interchange station). The routing also offers big benefits for 2nd Ward transformation. Making Midtown / CPCC an interchange would be more interesting if CPCC didn't already swallow up all of the neighborhood.

I seem some merit to the 12th street route because it opens up a portion of uptown that could really benefit from better connectivity, but the barrier of the Brookshire feels like it would severely limit development opportunities. In addition we all know that Levine Land will still be vacant by the time the Silver Line opens. Gateway station connectivity is a bonus to this route.

The Blue Line sharing route would have the best connections to the most jobs but it would do nothing to improve access to other portions of uptown (where growth is certainly headed). Its biggest issue is that it creates significant capacity issues on shared tracks that have 5 (?) grade crossings.

The Belk / Carson options all feel silly to me. Very poor access to uptown and the creation of the node / transfer station at Carson funnels accessibility to a place that doesn't really need it. If any more transit dollars go to Southend I think they would be better spent on a streetcar loop connecting Midtown, Kenilworth / CMC and East / West (and possibly up Mint to Gateway).

Edited December 6, 2016 by kermit

[tusculan]

12 hours ago, kermit said:

yea, I completely agree. Other than the Blue Line sharing route, the Stonewall option provides the most one-seat ride opportunities to uptown (plus it offers a nice Gold Line interchange station). The routing also offers big benefits for 2nd Ward transformation. Making Midtown / CPCC an interchange would be more interesting if CPCC didn't already swallow up all of the neighborhood.

I seem some merit to the 12th street route because it opens up a portion of uptown that could really benefit from better connectivity, but the barrier of the Brookshire feels like it would severely limit development opportunities. In addition we all know that Levine Land will still be vacant by the time the Silver Line opens. Gateway station connectivity is a bonus to this route.

The Blue Line sharing route would have the best connections to the most jobs but it would do nothing to improve access to other portions of uptown (where growth is certainly headed). Its biggest issue is that it creates significant capacity issues on shared tracks that have 5 (?) grade crossings.

The Belk / Carson options all feel silly to me. Very poor access to uptown and the creation of the node / transfer station at Carson funnels accessibility to a place that doesn't really need it. If any more transit dollars go to Southend I think they would be better spent on a streetcar loop connecting Midtown, Kenilworth / CMC and East / West (and possibly up Mint to Gateway).

I am completely in agreement with this. Any junction of the two major axes of transit that doesn't take place a) actually in uptown and b) with a line that only skirts uptown is pointless. Who is going to ride from Matthews, ride along the belk freeway, switch to the blue line after circling to SouthEnd to finally go into uptown, but only ride 2-3 stops? IF the route is along Stonewall- people can easily walk anywhere along the south side of uptown - from Trade down to the Belk Freeway.

The blue line sharing route is a solution in the same way that two car trains was a solution. Its short sighted. Sure maybe capacity works now - but no vision for future use. What if there is a spur to Mint Hill - will that also be using this alignment?

Moreover, with the possible exception of the 12th St. alignment, the Stonewall alignment is the easiest to get out to the airport. You can either head out west on Morehead or along the NCRR corridor. Frankly, I fail to see how this is not far and away the best option.

[southslider]

Sharing Blue Line works as long as each line is 10 minutes, even with three-car trains, allowing for a train every 5 minutes in Uptown. Conversely, you would need to wait up to 10 minutes to transfer between the lines, if not overlapping at Uptown stations .