CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[15895]

17 minutes ago, southslider said:

Focus connections away from Uptown but still connect to LYNX. Gateway would fail both.

Hopefully it will connect to the Gold line (and silver if it goes through). 

 

Lynx blue line connections can be made via cross town routes still if they restructure it. 

 

 

[DEnd]

8 hours ago, Spartan said:

Since CATS isn't technically a City agency, the question is really whether CATS can afford it on their own OR if the City will partner with CATS to fund some portion of the work (e.g.: CityLYNX Gold Line).

CATS is most definitely a city department.  It does however receive county wide funding Via the transit sales tax, to compensate for this the City, county, and other cities and towns in the county formed the MTC to provide the policies by which CATS operates by.  The MTC however does not have hiring and firing authority, that is still ultimately the city manager's job. The city also must ultimately approve CATS' budget.  

[southslider]

12 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Hopefully it will connect to the Gold line (and silver if it goes through). 

 

Gold Line is too slow.  Silver Line is non-existent. Blue Line is the key trunk line, off which to connect higher-frequency, crosstown bus routes.

[go_vertical]

Is the gold line ever going to receive signal prioritization or is that just wishful thinking on the part of this forum?

[tozmervo]

30 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

Is the gold line ever going to receive signal prioritization or is that just wishful thinking on the part of this forum?

Unfortunately I can't make any of these meetings, but hopefully someone can and can put them on the spot about it:

 

[Spartan]

On 4/23/2017 at 10:22 PM, DEnd said:

CATS is most definitely a city department.  It does however receive county wide funding Via the transit sales tax, to compensate for this the City, county, and other cities and towns in the county formed the MTC to provide the policies by which CATS operates by.  The MTC however does not have hiring and firing authority, that is still ultimately the city manager's job. The city also must ultimately approve CATS' budget.  

I'm not really interested in delving into the technicalities of the MTC or the structure of their inter-local agreement.

After the transit tax was approved in the 1990s, CATS was split off from CDOT primarily because of its funding source. It is a unique department in terms of how it is funded, and the City generally doesn't allocate any "extra" funds for general transit projects unless it provides allotment for a special project (ie: the Gold Line). My point is that CATS cannot assume the City would be willing to issue general obligation bonds for the purposes of a county-wide transit implementation plan when they already receive a substantial amount of money. 

 

[kermit]

Random transit thought of the day:

BLE Construction costs: approximately $100 million per mile

Spanish urban subway costs: $69 million per mile (figure was from central Barcelona, all was in new tunnel). While some inflation tweaks are needed for these figures (they are from 2011) keep in mind that Spain is currently building HSR tunnels for about $25 million per mile. A Silver Line tunnel beneath all of uptown would be about $150 million at Spanish rates. Eliminating buy American requirements could lower rail transit construction costs by as much as 33-50% (plus build new lines underground).

https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comparative-subway-construction-costs-revised/

I do understand that Charlotte is not Barcelona yada yada. However my main point here is that the barriers to lower cost transit are not technological -- they are regulatory.

(alternatively CATS could ask the UNCC Engineering department to build a tunnel boring machine from some old dozers, a couple of old baggage conveyors from CLT, and some PBR tallboy empties from the Common Market as part of an undergraduate capstone project)

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by kermit

[Matthew.Brendan]

Very impressive. It does amaze me what it costs to do equivalent work here. 

[elrodvt]

Elon Musk just gave a Ted talk that spent some time on his boring vision and how to reduce costs. Pretty interesting.

[orulz]

BLE included a lot of property acquisition to widen and rebuild North Tryon. I assume that was a pretty big chunk of overall costs. A tunnel avoids all that.

That said, tunneling itself is not generally the expensive part of building underground transit. Stations are.

[kermit]

First discussion of the 2070 plan and CATS RFP to consultants to engineer the next transit lines. Part of the discussion features a "billion dollar tunnel" to take the Sliver Line through uptown. The Observer mentions lines to Southpark and Ballantyne for clickbait.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article149325174.html

[Third Strike]

I would hope a 2070 plan included a SouthPark and Ballantyne lines. Should be the next logical step after the Silver/airport lines are completed. Same as a BLE to Concord Mills. 

[kermit]

^ Yea, you are right -- those lines belong there and we really need an updated transit plan. I was just frustrated by the lack of followup in the article on the lines mentioned in the headline. In the light of day I realize they don't know any more than we do.  A big flashy plan is certainly gonna be necessary to get more (perhaps all) money from the community for transit. Probably the only thing that has a chance of passing a vote is something that promises most voters access to transit -- even if its decades away.

 

[DMann]

This appears to be a good place to post this:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2017/05/05/car-ownership-projection-2030.html?ana=e_me_set1&s=newsletter&ed=2017-05-05&u=r1eEro%2FkJOaUhQIbGlvjNQyzTc&t=1494084235&j=78101611

 

[LKN704]

2070?!!!?!?

I'm sorry but that is over forty years away, besides the fact that the additional tax may not get passed and who knows if these projects will get past the drawing board. Personally, I would really like to see a ballot measure like Measure R (Los Angeles Metro) or FasTracks and T-REX (both RTD Denver) that would both fund and accelerate transportation costs throughout the county.

Ballantyne needs light rail now. Southpark likely does as well, as does the Silver Line corridor. A clear, concise transportation plan for the Northern suburbs is necessary in order to keep them willing to fork over an additional tax. I recognize that I may be the minority, but I think a fixed-guideway system to the airport should not be a priority for CATS. Unlike other airports, CLT is really close to our CBD and traffic is almost never an issue. I do think the River District should be built for a system in mind, but again I think Ballantyne/Silver Line/South Park/Northern suburbs should be prioritized for the time being.

Regarding the tunnel, I have personally believed that a tunnel would be the smartest and most efficient way for the Silver Line to cross Uptown. 1 billion seems to high, however for a tunnel just to cross Uptown. For example, the recently opened Seattle Central Link light rail extension to Seattle's University area cost $1.9 billion dollars for the 3.15 mile line. Central Link is building another 4.3 mile tunnel extension north of the University area, with a cost of only $2.1 billion dollars, a bargain compared to the proposed tunnel in Charlotte.

Really only two stations are necessary: An underground CTC station, along with perhaps a station on Church or Tryon St.

[Squid7085]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

2070?!!!?!?

I'm sorry but that is over forty years away, besides the fact that the additional tax may not get passed and who knows if these projects will get past the drawing board. Personally, I would really like to see a ballot measure like Measure R (Los Angeles Metro) or FasTracks and T-REX (both RTD Denver) that would both fund and accelerate transportation costs throughout the county.

Ballantyne needs light rail now. Southpark likely does as well, as does the Silver Line corridor. A clear, concise transportation plan for the Northern suburbs is necessary in order to keep them willing to fork over an additional tax. I recognize that I may be the minority, but I think a fixed-guideway system to the airport should not be a priority for CATS. Unlike other airports, CLT is really close to our CBD and traffic is almost never an issue. I do think the River District should be built for a system in mind, but again I think Ballantyne/Silver Line/South Park/Northern suburbs should be prioritized for the time being.

Regarding the tunnel, I have personally believed that a tunnel would be the smartest and most efficient way for the Silver Line to cross Uptown. 1 billion seems to high, however for a tunnel just to cross Uptown. For example, the recently opened Seattle Central Link light rail extension to Seattle's University area cost $1.9 billion dollars for the 3.15 mile line. Central Link is building another 4.3 mile tunnel extension north of the University area, with a cost of only $2.1 billion dollars, a bargain compared to the proposed tunnel in Charlotte.

Really only two stations are necessary: An underground CTC station, along with perhaps a station on Church or Tryon St.

I don't know how easy tunneling would be here. I know many have talked about how difficult it was for for the Duke Energy building to have the parking deck so far below ground.

If I were to come up with an idea, just do a cut and cover, similar to the Market Street subway in San Francisco, down 4th street. Go underground just east of 277 and then Create a station at the CTC area, which could go hand and hand with removing it as a "bus hub" and making it a transit hub where all lines intersect (Blue, Silver, Gold), Maybe one just west of Tryon. Then create underground shells around 4th & Davidson and another at 4th & Graham (For a future connection to the Gateway Station) Could save some money for now and be finished later when those areas grow. Then come back above ground just west of the tracks. It would be nice to design it in a way that a future North to SouthPark line (Green Line?) could also be routed through there. Maybe bring the Blue line underground at that point and have a nice + shaped subway in Uptown.

I'd say make it a double decker tunnel to route in Amtrak and future commuter lines in it, scrap the Gateway station and just make the CTC a real transit hub. However, baby steps.

Seems to me that it would not be that far fetched, if they did cut and cover, to bring the Silver line up to the CTC underground when they build that line, and then they can extend it when the time comes. Although I have to imagine crossing Tryon would be pretty tough. Gotta be a lot of stuff running under that street.

[Guest]

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article149587754.html
Just a nice little video of Raleigh getting ahead of us on something :-( 

[kermit]

Strestsblog picked up on the 2070 plan discussion. They mostly just quoted the Observer article and spoke with Shannon Binns at Sustain Charlotte. He was more than a little negative about 'consultant creep' (they made it sound like the RFP was limited to the Sliver, airport and red line design but Kimley Horne decided to add to that). Generally the attitude was, lets get the core system done first before we spend energy and design resources on stuff for 50 years from now. While I am certainly sympathetic to that perspective, I am also sure that selling substantial new local taxes is going to require some shiny things that appeal to a very large group.

It is nice to see Charlotte being discussed on Streetsblog.

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/05/10/charlotte-transit-has-problems-that-expensive-fantasy-maps-wont-fix/

Edited May 10, 2017 by kermit

[RiverwoodCLT]

4 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article149587754.html
Just a nice little video of Raleigh getting ahead of us on something :-( 

Thanks to the money they took from Charlotte to build this station.

[Popsickle]

A 52+ year plan is completely unacceptable to say the least, don't get me wrong, I love forward thinking. But thinking/planning/FUNDING this far in advance using currently available technology is just foolhardy. 

Nevertheless, I do believe and support a Charlotte plan to complete the initial 2030 plan should be approved and initiated ASAP!  They need to strike while the iron is hot and get a complete build out of the 2030 plan. Then and only then, work on new lines. 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Popsickle
don't get me worng

[archiham04]

Think about this: the original streetcar system in Charlotte didn't really get under way until the mid 20s.  Then it was gone in the late 50s.  It had about a 30 year lifespan.  I agree that forward thinking is important, but things change. A LOT in 30 years.... not to mention 50.

[UPNoDa]

Not comparing Charlotte to Dubai in any way shape or form, but Dubai Metro has completed both Red and Green lines totaling 43 miles of lines and 47 stations all in six short years.  Their 2030 masterplan includes 262 miles of metro lines to cater to the expected 4.1 million population of the city. There are plans for 167 miles of light rail tracks to act as a feeder system for the Metro, although the fate of this entire network is now dependent on an economic recovery and private investment (read: Royal Family contributions) The fare system is subsidized so it's not in the "for-profit" category to say the least, but I do recall reading somewhere they will have finally broke even by 2017-18.

I guess my point is, even without private funding, why do so many cities seem to be fast-tracking light rail and we are so far behind?

[Third Strike]

A lot of what is built in Dubai was basically done by slave labor. So yeah, Charlotte or any other American city for that matter can't compare to Dubai and their rapid urban growth.

And compared to other peer cities and metros, we are about average. Remember that bigger cities like Detroit and San Antonio barely even have mass transit, whereas at least Charlotte has a near 20 mile light rail line, a streetcar line, and three Amtrak lines. We could do better, but I think for a city as young and small as Charlotte, I think we're doing okay. What's going to halt our progress is funding at the state and federal level. The latter will have an impact on all American cities, so we won't be alone.

[cjd5050]

On 5/11/2017 at 2:30 PM, Third Strike said:

We could do better, but I think for a city as young and small as Charlotte, I think we're doing okay. What's going to halt our progress is funding at the state and federal level. The latter will have an impact on all American cities, so we won't be alone.

Very interested to see what happens with Federal Funding.  New York City MTA put out a $29 billion Capital Program from 2015-19 and of that $6.4 billion was Federal funds.  

Of course they put transportation under authorities that gives them a lot of power and flexibility.  

 

 

 

[KJHburg]

Here is a PBS show on light rail in the sunbelt and specifically Dallas and Houston. I have been on DART and their lines are extensive and there is a lot of transit oriented development now. Especially as you go north from downtown this is very true. Houston's system is just now rolling out and I have seen it but not been on it.