CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[SgtCampsalot]

I said one argument. I didn't say it was a good one.

[cjd5050]

17 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Ridiculous.  Metro areas like the Triangle provide the majority of state taxdollars but the bumpkins ruling the state will never admit that... 

I don't know very much about the budget as I am somewhat new to the state but this was an interesting proposition so I did a little digging.  

Just looking at the most recent Monthly Sales and Use Tax Statistics from the NC Department of Revenue , which is April of this year, it shows that the 7 counties that make up the two main metro regions ( Wake, Durham, Orange, Mecklenburg, Union, Gaston, and Cabarrus) account for 32% of the NC gross collections for sales and use taxes.   32% is close to 29%, which is the % of  NC's total population that live in the above counties compared to the rest of the state.  

Now sales and use tax is only a % of the total revenues.  This most recent report from 2015 suggests sales and use taxes account for 27.4% of revenue.  Individual tax revenue is the largest with 44.7%.  Corporate Income is just 5.3%.  

So for your assertion to be true, if I am looking at the numbers correctly, the individual income tax revenue for the two metro areas would need to be close 3X to what is collected for the rest of the state.  On the lower side to account for corporate taxes.  Not sure I see that.  

FWIW, I only used the two metros as they are the only two looking for light rail funding.  I see other metros in NC that are not home to 'bumpkins' as you put it but I could see the leadership on the coast being in favor of ways to bring tourism dollars to their region than mass transit projects in others.  But that's just an opinion.  

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by cjd5050

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

I don't know very much about the budget as I am somewhat new to the state but this was an interesting proposition so I did a little digging.  

Just looking at the most recent Monthly Sales and Use Tax Statistics from the NC Department of Revenue , which is April of this year, it shows that the 7 counties that make up the two main metro regions ( Wake, Durham, Orange, Mecklenburg, Union, Gaston, and Cabarrus) account for 32% of the NC gross collections for sales and use taxes.   32% is close to 29%, which is the % of  NC's total population that live in the above counties compared to the rest of the state.  

Now sales and use tax is only a % of the total revenues.  This most recent report from 2015 suggests sales and use taxes account for 27.4% of revenue.  Individual tax revenue is the largest with 44.7%.  Corporate Income is just 5.3%.  

So for your assertion to be true, if I am looking at the numbers correctly, the individual income tax revenue for the two metro areas would need to be close 3X to what is collected for the rest of the state.  On the lower side to account for corporate taxes.  Not sure I see that.  

FWIW, I only used the two metros as they are the only two looking for light rail funding.  I see other metros in NC that are not home to 'bumpkins' as you put it but I could see the leadership on the coast being in favor of ways to bring tourism dollars to their region than mass transit projects in others.  But that's just an opinion.  

 

 

 

For the month of April, the three triangle counties (Orange, Durham, Wake) sent $104 Million in gross sales and use taxes to the state treasury.  If we assume that makes up 27.4% of all tax dollars, then the three counties produced $381 million in total state tax dollars for the month of April alone.  Multiply by 12 and you get $4.5 Billion per year.

The Triangle wants $138 Million for light rail which is only 3% of the tax dollars they send to the treasury in ONE YEAR.  I have no idea what they receive for every dollar sent to Raleigh but I assume they're a net contributor like most metro areas.  

I'm going to double down on my argument: why should the Triangle be subjected to a $500,000 fiscal straighjacket for light rail by the rest of the state when it produces $4.5 Billion in annual state tax revenue?

Even the most conservative of Tea Partiers can see that something is wrong.

Edited June 28, 2017 by ChessieCat

[cjd5050]

7 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

For the month of April, the three triangle counties (Orange, Durham, Wake) sent $104 Million in gross sales and use taxes to the state treasury.  If we assume that makes up 27.4% of all tax dollars, then the three counties produced $381 million in total state tax dollars for the month of April alone.  Multiply by 12 and you get $4.5 Billion per year.

I'm going to double down on my argument: why should the Triangle be subjected to a $500,000 fiscal straighjacket for light rail by the rest of the state when it produces $4.5 Billion in annual state tax revenue?  

The Triangle wants $138 Million for light rail which is only 3% of the tax dollars they send to the treasury in ONE YEAR.  I have no idea what they recieve for every dollar sent to the teasury but I assume they're a net contributor like most metro areas.  If so, even the most conservative of Tea Partiers can see that something is wrong.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing the other side.  I was simply countering the statement that areas like the like the Triangle provide the majority of state tax dollars.  

If you're saying that an area like the Triangle sends in enough money to justify a spend on light rail, that's a different argument.  One that I agree with by the way.  But using this same set of rules, the 70% that comes from outside the metro areas justifies the "spending virtually infinite amounts on new bypasses" as Kermit put it.

At the end of the day, IMHO, this is about power.  Not the politics of 'bumpkins' or 'Tea Partiers' but power.  I personally think what's happening is the power outside of the metro regions is trying to avoid becoming another New York State.  

In New York, you have Red/Blue, just like you do everywhere.  But somewhat unique to New York State is the Upstate/Downstate divide.  This divide is a Metro region that will work together across party lines even if it's to the detriment of a party member upstate.  For example, a Democrat from the Buffalo region does not always have the same power as a Republican from Long Island when speaking to Assembly leadership, which is always Democrat.  In NY that have something called '3 men in a room' which is the Gov, Assembly Leader (Downstate Democrat) and Senate Leader (Downstate Republican) and these 3 will put politics aside at times to keep downstate happy.  

I personally think this is all about power and not today but really 20 years from now.  

[SgtCampsalot]

43 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

I personally think this is all about power and not today but really 20 years from now.  

That's putting it lightly. The current NCGA is sloppily trying to keep the metros from running the state.

I do think this terrible individual policy decision potentially broaches an interesting topic about how our "free market" system works in regards to WHERE the economic activity occurrs. Yes, these metros have a great deal of economic opportunity that makes people want to live there, which necessitates infrastructure investment in kind. But what are the factors keeping much of this economic opportunity from happening in other smaller metros (Greensboro, High Point, Winston-Salem, Wilmington, etc)?

This Strong Towns podcast, which talks about housing, about halfway in goes into what I just described, using NY, San Francisco, and smaller/cheaper cities  as examples. 

The larger point is: even though the post-war development pattern spread people/resources around too much, shouldn't we be able to have many smaller municipalities have their own functional economies as well? This hooey with the NCGA is them sloppily and dumbly trying to cater to their base (but they're just shooting everyone in the foot), but it's really a response to something deeper, wanting more equitable economic opportunity for the whole state.

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, SgtCampsalot said:

The larger point is: even though the post-war development pattern spread people/resources around too much, shouldn't we be able to have many smaller municipalities have their own functional economies as well?

but it's really a response to something deeper, wanting more equitable economic opportunity for the whole state.

 

I think this is crucial.  I know politics are involved but I really hope North Carolina can evolve to a mixture of regions.   I want to see Charlotte <> Raleigh become one region in my lifetime but I also hope the rest of the state grows.   

[Neo]

Let's stop with the insults, regardless of how light hearted they may be. This is a downward spiral that does not promote a positive environment for anyone.

[atlrvr]

Given there is a contract out to look at the long-range (2050?) transit plans...I thought I'd put the figurative pen to paper of what I'd love to see  (these plans don't include commuter rail sketched out).

This first regional map is all Light Rail lines to be built.  The idea was to provide multiple lines sharing tracks, with some marginal extensions to really increase access in the region.  Changes from the established plans. 

Blue Line (southern end extended to Ballantyne)

Silver Line (basically developed as currently envisioned)

Green Line (River District access via the Airport/Silver Line then connecting with Blue Line north extension via Gateway Extension alignment and Brookshire rebuilt, and finally servicing Univ Rearch Park)

Orange Line (Albemarle Rd corridor accessing Eastland Mall site, then downtown access via Silver Line, connecting to Blue line via a Carson Ave tunnel, then serving South Park via Tyvola Rd spur)

This second downtown map shows how the lines would interact in the Center City, with dashes representing tunneled sections.  I am proposing Brookshire to be rebuilt completely below grade with LRT included in that below-grade ROW, and a the street-grid re-established through there at grade level....given the consultant already acknowledge the need for a tunnel, this would accomplish multiple goals, and allow a lot of different line connectivity.  The other tunnel is a spur off of the Blue Line under Carson emerging along the existing rail ROW to allow a secondary entrance into Uptown.....BTW, I didn't draw the lines at the bottom of the map to the edges correctly, but you get the idea.

This map also has 4 streetcar lines.  The goal of the street cars are the "support" the planned LRT corridors by using parallel thoroughfares that already have density.  The order listed below would be priority.

Gold Line - (As designed though not extending to Eastland)

Purple Line - (Camp North End project to Kenilworth/Scott/Park Rd intersection via Graham and Stonewall...each terminus is a "one-way" loop)

Brown Line - (Monroe/7th St alignment from Sharon Amity then traversing downtown via McDowell and Stonwal, then existing downtown via Mint St, and then heading along West Blvd, possibly using W Tyvola/Tyvola until reaching the Old Coliseum/City Park project)

Pink Line - (Parkwood Ave to Seigle Ave, traversing Uptown via McDowell, Trade St, Graham, exiting Uptown along the planned Stewart Creek trolley line and then using Tuckaseegee to reach Freedom terminating near I-85 at the Meck County services center).

 

I don't know if this could all be achieved in the $7B price-tag, but the important thing to note is that there is actually pretty marginal new LRT track planned relative to the current 2030 plans (less than 25% additional to what is already planned)

The streetcar obviously is a bunch of new lines, but there aren't many challenges and some places using abandoned rail ROW (like at Camp North End)...I believe the only real challenge on the streetcars is the rail bridge over 7th St at Lupies, and MLK under the rail lines adjacent to Panther stadium which would require a new tunnel probably all the way under Cedar.

[southslider]

^To address the streetcar challenges, just branch Pink off Gold at Wesley Heights Way, plus end Brown before the CSX bridge by Lupie's or turn into Grier Heights.

Edited July 13, 2017 by southslider

[ajfunder]

^The purple streetcar line should terminate at Park Road IMO.

Otherwise I love this idea.

[atlrvr]

^ Agreed...I had an editing issue, but yes, would run purple line down to where the 1-way pairing of Scott/Kenilworth hit  Park Rd...or are you suggesting all the way to Park Rd Shopping Center/Montford....which I would be fine with.

[ajfunder]

I guess shopping center since it's only a little further. I have always thought that the Scott/Kenilworth one-way set up would be perfect for a streetcar alignment.

That line would serve Stonewall, Midtown, CMC, East Blvd., and Park Road/Montfort. Pretty solid anchors.

Edited July 14, 2017 by ajfunder

[archiham04]

2 hours ago, ajfunder said:

^The purple streetcar line should terminate at Park Road IMO.

Otherwise I love this idea.

Im kind of torn on any mass transit to south Charlotte...  It'll never improve without it, but its so built out and well heeled that I don't see any redevelopment or increased density opportunities happening due to fierce NIMBY opposition.  SouthPark is building out, but I don't see any viable redevelopment corridor to it to justify a line.

Edited July 14, 2017 by archiham04

[ajfunder]

19 minutes ago, archiham04 said:

Im kind of torn on any mass transit to south Charlotte...  It'll never improve without it, but its so built out and well heeled that I don't see any redevelopment or increased density opportunities happening due to fierce NIMBY opposition.  SouthPark is building out, but I don't see any viable redevelopment corridor to it to justify a line.

I would argue that Park Road is undergoing massive change and that the Park Road line would do fairly well because there are already destinations as well as the developing bar district on Montford. The hospital is also a massive employer. Not all transportation must correlate to redevelopment, although it is certainlet a nice bonus.

Edited July 14, 2017 by ajfunder

[archiham04]

 For Charlotte, redevelopment around mass transit (rail at least) it is not a bonus, it is an absolute correlation, and in fact, the primary goal. It is what differentiates Charlotte's LYNX success, from Atlanta's MARTA.  I think we should continue our strategy and not fall into the trap of assuming the suburbs will somehow transform if we build transit to them... or that suburbanites will somehow change their habits and forsake their automobiles.

[ah59396]

5 minutes ago, archiham04 said:

 For Charlotte, redevelopment around mass transit (rail at least) it is not a bonus, it is an absolute correlation, and in fact, the primary goal. It is what differentiates Charlotte's LYNX success, from Atlanta's MARTA.  I think we should continue our strategy and not fall into the trap of assuming the suburbs will somehow transform if we build transit to them... or that suburbanites will somehow change their habits and forsake their automobiles.

^^This x1000000

The people that live in Myers Park & South Park are always going to drive to work, as the costs of parking, etc. do not impact them.  You can make an argument for a spur off the Blue Line to the mall that also stops near the Park Road Shopping center, but honestly that's it IMO.  

 

Rich banker guy, with his Porche and $1m+ home a'int hopping on the streetcar.  I don't care how convenient it is.

[DEnd]

6 hours ago, ah59396 said:

^^This x1000000

The people that live in Myers Park & South Park are always going to drive to work, as the costs of parking, etc. do not impact them.  You can make an argument for a spur off the Blue Line to the mall that also stops near the Park Road Shopping center, but honestly that's it IMO.  

 

Rich banker guy, with his Porche and $1m+ home a'int hopping on the streetcar.  I don't care how convenient it is.

I don't know about that, time to work does impact them.  I want to move back to Charlotte, and be on the light rail specifically for that reason.  Granted I'm not rich or I'd consider myers park.  But for the rich, like me it would all be about convenience, not cost. Of course that's also why there are million dollar plus condos uptown too...

[Third Strike]

22 hours ago, ah59396 said:

^^This x1000000

The people that live in Myers Park & South Park are always going to drive to work, as the costs of parking, etc. do not impact them.  You can make an argument for a spur off the Blue Line to the mall that also stops near the Park Road Shopping center, but honestly that's it IMO.  

 

Rich banker guy, with his Porche and $1m+ home a'int hopping on the streetcar.  I don't care how convenient it is.

Streetcar wouldn't be a good fit for that area, for the reasons you listed. But if there was a rail line of any sort that didn't have to share the road with automobiles, than I guarantee you would see decent to high ridership. Even many of the affluent people that work in Lower Manhattan use the subway, and even commute out to the 'burbs in New Jersey and Connecticut via train. The biggest issue I see with a rail line to South Charlotte isn't the ridership numbers, but where the ROW would come from.

[kermit]

"A wealthy city is not one where everyone drives. It's where everyone takes transit"

See New York, Zurich, London, Paris.....

[Nick2]

The Charlotte regional transportation planning organization has started a public comment period on its 2045 Metropolitan Transportation Plan’s fiscally-constrained project list. It will last until August 3rd.

Tons of good information on this website.

And a really awesome interactive map that you can vote on your favorite projects.

edit: oops I didn't see that this was posted in another topic

Edited July 23, 2017 by Nick2

[tozmervo]

Iredell county taking a stab at their own express bus service, launched this month. It doesn't come all the way uptown, but instead offers riders a coordinated transfer to a CATS express bus at exit 25. 

https://www.co.iredell.nc.us/1122/ICATS-Express

[archiham04]

On 7/14/2017 at 10:39 PM, DEnd said:

I don't know about that, time to work does impact them.  I want to move back to Charlotte, and be on the light rail specifically for that reason.  Granted I'm not rich or I'd consider myers park.  But for the rich, like me it would all be about convenience, not cost. Of course that's also why there are million dollar plus condos uptown too...

my original point is less about whether the rich will change their habits and start taking mass transit, and more about the ultimate goal of mass transit investment in Charlotte.  Our ultimate goal is not to change the habits of the rich, or even the habits of the middle class.  Atlanta tried this.  Suburbs do not have the density to support the convenience of walking so Atlanta built park and rides to entice the suburbanites to stop driving all the way and Park.  It failed.  Parking and Riding rarely adds convenience, and it resulted in a negligible impact on overall congestion.

Charlotte's strategy is to put transit into corridors that have a high potential for redevelopment, and ideally transit oriented high density development.  Suburbs and in particular south Charlotte suburbs have very little potential for high density redevelopment.  Look no further than the failed rezoning at Providence and Sharon Amity.  That development faced Sharon Amity, had no vehicular connection to the surrounding neighborhoods, had relatively low density, and a healthy buffer.... yet met feroucious opposition. 

So if you run mass transit to South Charlotte the only assumption is that people will either bike 2 miles to the transit stop, or park and ride.  Unless there is a radical technology change in the next 20 years the inconvenience of a park and ride facility will likely be on par with the inconvenience of the commute.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Having ridden Marta in Atlanta I'd say the failure is in long lead times (think we waited 20-30 minutes for our train) and never expanding much beyond the initial buildout. You can't have crappy wait times and no active development of the system and wonder why people don't ride it. 

[elrodvt]

Also, there is a really simple way to entice people to take mass transit AND make money from it to build better service. See London, Singapore.... With the added benefit of getting rid of all the prime space wasted on parking and greatly reducing pollution. We on the other hand cannot even consider closing a single street to make a pedestrian centric area. 

[Nick2]

Cities like Charlotte are far to car centric to sacrifice car convenience in any way for the sake of mass transit. That's the quickest way to lose public support.

Has Charlotte ever considered monorail? It would be able to access high density areas without as much road interaction.