CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[dubone]

It does seem that the new democratic administration is willing and wanting to reinvest in infrastructure, especially rail and transit. Even consider the FTA in the Bush administration is apparently being very receptive to CATS's desire to seek 80% federal share of the NE extension and the capacity enhancements to the current Lynx line. Obama knows well that we need to make serious societal changes in order to slow greenhouse gas emissions, and that we need to take advantage of the economic slump to rebuild our infrastructure in a less expensive way.

I'm not sure anyone knows how to avoid a depression if that is where the global economy is heading, but it seems in part it won't be equivalent to the great depression because we have a much more sound safety net thanks to FDR compared to what was in place before him. However, I agree that a public works initiative put in place earlier in the downturn would help avert some of the problems that Hoover compounded (don't forget FDR wasn't elected until three years after the market crash, where as Obama is now elected only a month or two after the crash this year).

[tozmervo]

* Programming Alert *

Today on Charlotte Talks they will be talking about the future of CATS and the CATS Budget with Keith Parker and Dee Pereira, the CEO and CFO of CATS, respectively. That's 9:00am on 90.7

[Andyc545]

It does seem that the new democratic administration is willing and wanting to reinvest in infrastructure, especially rail and transit. Even consider the FTA in the Bush administration is apparently being very receptive to CATS's desire to seek 80% federal share of the NE extension and the capacity enhancements to the current Lynx line. Obama knows well that we need to make serious societal changes in order to slow greenhouse gas emissions, and that we need to take advantage of the economic slump to rebuild our infrastructure in a less expensive way.

I know I've mentioned it before regarding the Obama admin interested in mass transit as part of its public works overhall to invest into jobs, a good infrastructure, and ultimately helping the economy again, but it was just yesterday that a senior adviser again commented on this commitment and specifically said MASS TRANSIT investments for jobs, redeveloping in an infrastructure that is crumbling, economic regrowth, homeland security, and American energy alternatives. If all goes well with this vast interest in all of America's infrastructure, then it would appear that over the next few years that we here on UP will have a lot to be excited about and look forward to. This has the potential to be the largest transit revolution since the early 20th century when streetcars were invested into cities but later many removed due to the rise of the automobile. If its focus retains to the urban environments, one would wonder if maybe our 2030 plan is diluted and we could expect to see much more to it and/or faster timelines due to a greater number of workers, funding methods, and the generality that the federal government (that has high ambitions) is willing to work directly with it more than the previous administration. Seeing an overhaul of Charlotte's system that has only taken one baby step with the addition of the South Line so far, this could have tremendous impacts on the urban way of life on a much more quicker timeline. Maybe I'm overoptimistic, but one would wonder what it would be like to see a completed 2030 transit plan completed in just 5 years say. Since funding is the main deterrent from the system really moving, the largest problem to the system could be solved come January 20, 2009.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Andyc545

[orulz]

Thought I might add, if ever there was a time when it wouldn't be political suicide to raise the gas tax, this is it. Most who study our infrastructure problems recognize that this is necessary, regardless of political leanings. However, nobody wanted to touch the third rail of higher gas taxes, particularly when gas was $4.00 and more a gallon. But now, with gas dipping back below $2.00, and people still somewhat used to paying more for gas, is the time. This is sorely needed for rebuilding crumbling roads and bridges (not so much for new ones, really) and even if that was all we got out of higher gas taxes it would be a good thing, but in reality higher gas taxes have other (more progressive) impacts: less driving, and more money for transit.

[dubone]

Do trade rules allow for a tax or duty on imported oil? That would probably be the better method, as it would not be put up on a sticker at each gas pump making everyone mad. Plus, it would target imported oil, with is maybe 70% of our oil anyway.

I do agree that to do the infrastructure reinvestment, they are either going to have to make cuts in the discretionary federal budget (hard to do), or else raise taxes.

More than any recent presidential campaign, the Obama campaign made transit, infrastructure, energy independence, and global warming central themes. It is hard to know what he'd do at this point with the economy tanking, but I suspect he'd consider a positive for the economy. Also, this would be government investment rather than government consumption, which has a much more significant multiplier on the economy.

[tiblerbrit]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1227063199...wsj_gadgv1&

Rahm Emanuel is saying that there will be big stimulus spending after Jan 20th on "Green Infrastructure". This will include mass transit among other things. We already knew it would be likely that this campaign would spend heavily on transit, but here is further evidence.

[southslider]

Maybe CATS will finally have enough vehicles to run two-car trains all day long, but I don't see how a stimulus could expedite system expansion without temporarily suspending NEPA. Granted, Minneapolis was allowed an expedited process, but that was to replace infrastructure (the infamous I-35W bridge), not add new (like Minny's Central Corridor LRT line to St. Paul).

[monsoon]

Maybe CATS will finally have enough vehicles to run two-car trains all day long, ...

I am not sure why CATS would need to do this.

[Mobuchu]

^At least 2 car trains through the entire morning and evening rush. Maybe not all day, but even the lunch time rush gets filled up, as well as weekend afternoons.

[Andyc545]

Maybe CATS will finally have enough vehicles to run two-car trains all day long, but I don't see how a stimulus could expedite system expansion without temporarily suspending NEPA. Granted, Minneapolis was allowed an expedited process, but that was to replace infrastructure (the infamous I-35W bridge), not add new (like Minny's Central Corridor LRT line to St. Paul).

I forget where I heard this, but recently I heard that as part of the immediate stimulus, that is whether a stimulus package takes place before Bush leaves or shortly after, that CAT's would take the money to invest the stimulus funds into 3 car stations. This would also be something that would take place soon and not be a delayed thing like the designing for the future rails have seem to have taken moving at a turtles pace.

[New Name]

^ I read that too. The angle was that the impending stimulus money would need to be used for projects that are "ready to go/on the table already." Since build-out of new lines is still in the preliminary engineering phase, they do not qualify. But since expanding the existing Lynx platforms is already floating out there waiting for funding, the project qualifies.

[tozmervo]

So New York's MTA is in deep financial trouble, to the tune of $1.2 billion. Of all the transit systems in the country, the MTA seems like it would be the one that is capable of running in the black, given its gazillion or so riders a day on bus and subway lines. And they still haven't figured out how to fund their own capital projects, including the Second Avenue subway.

Then we come to CATS. Its frequently mentioned that poor management decisions and some poor bus routes are draining tax payers. What can CATS learn by looking at the MTA? As CATS moves forward with 2030, how can they avoid some of the same issues?

One issue that comes to mind is maintenance costs. The NYC subway system has horrendous maintenance needs. Their budget just to keep water from flooding the system must be astronomical. And when its not underground in Manhattan, its overstreet in the other boroughs, subjecting miles and miles of structure to sea air and harsh winters. By comparison, the tracks and stations for the LYNX must be a dream.

[southslider]

I am not sure why CATS would need to do this (run two-car trains all day long).

Because variable headways are a more efficient way to respond to demand than variable vehicle sets. For one, think of the labor it takes to couple and decouple train sets. And it obviously doesn't take added labor to actually drive a two-car verses one-car train.

For comparison, a route like 9-Central already has enough demand to use an articulated bus (though prohibited in NC short-sightedly by a local senator seeking to prevent BRT on Independence). You could run articulated buses all-day long on the existing schedule, because the schedule itself already responds (albeit poorly due to fleet limitations) to patron demand. Obviously, it would be more efficient to run articulated buses on the same schedule than try to even further reduce headways on a route already running comparable to LYNX headways. Similarly, it is more efficient to have enough vehicles to run two-car sets all day long.

Granted, as a transit user, I can tell you I would generally like to see more frequency than bigger vehicles, since I'd personally prefer a shorter wait at the stop/station than being guaranteed a seat (or even space to stand) for the ride. But when it gets so bad you can't increase frequency any more within your operational constraints or even get on a packed vehicle (at least LYNX allows you the choice to pack on, when full buses bypass patrons), then it's time to go to bigger vehicles. This is especially true when the added vehicle capacity (as evident in the crush loads) won't translate into reduced frequency.

[atlrvr]

The antiquadated infrastructure is certainly a burden on the MTA, though I believe like Boston, a lot of their expenses come from empoyee (see union worker) benefits. Their pension pays 50% of salary after 25 years service, with payments beginning at age 55. In Boston it's even worse....pension gets paid after 23 years of service (regardless of age) and pays over 55% of salary plus full medical benefits for life.

Besides restruting benefits (which has been hotly contested for years), what MTA needs is one time debt relief from the state. They keep restructuring and deferring debt to the point that it is overwhelming. They need to cut the "in booth" station attendants (you know, the ones on the otherside of the turnstiles that serve no function) and redirect that money into updating signal systems. The fact that the arson at the one signal station could shut down the A, C lines (I think those were the ones) for months is indicative of how outdated they are.

CATS is ahead of the game in this respect, with flexible employees and modern computer aided monitoring/operational systems.

[tozmervo]

^ Heh, you could have said the same thing and substituted "GM" for "MTA"

A friend of mine in Brooklyn was describing a morning when a vagrant pulled the emergency brake on a train at Washington Square station, a station through which seven lines run. So the train was stuck and backed up all the lines that share the same track, effectively crippling a huge chunk of the system and stranding thousands of passengers.

It's a miracle the system works at all.

[New Name]

If you think MTA is bad, take a look at how the Chicago El operates - it's not uncommon to get "stuck" in a traffic jam while on the combined tracks in the Loop.

[monsoon]

What I don't understand is the mentality that we fix transit problems by cutting wages and benefits of transit workers to that which Walmart pays. That hasn't exactly been working out so well in the USA, has it?

[atlrvr]

And I don't understand the mentality of paying people who are so protected by a union that they aren't held accountable for anything, make as much as MBA's (with far better benefits), and refuse to allow their job description to be adopted to allow for them to patrol (walk) as opposed to sit all day in a booth. It wouldn't be such a sham if these people put in half the energy of the typical Wal-Mart employee, but Wal-Mart employees work under the pressure of knowing they will be fired if they don't perform. A recent subway accident in Boston that resulted in a train operator ramming another vehicle in a station resulting in over a dozen serious injuries gets to be "retrained" collecting full salary. Most white collar workers showing similar workplace negligence would be fired before opening their mouths and soon be declaring bancrupcy from the litigation directed at them. This isn't against unions per se, its against unions protecting and enriching the unappreciative and undeserving.

[Spartan]

^At least 2 car trains through the entire morning and evening rush. Maybe not all day, but even the lunch time rush gets filled up, as well as weekend afternoons.

They don't need two car trainsets during the day. I occasionally ride down to SouthEnd for lunch, and there is never a problem with overcrowding like there can be during rush hour. I think the schedule we have works just fine. We do need two-car trainsets during rush hour though.

^ I read that too. The angle was that the impending stimulus money would need to be used for projects that are "ready to go/on the table already." Since build-out of new lines is still in the preliminary engineering phase, they do not qualify. But since expanding the existing Lynx platforms is already floating out there waiting for funding, the project qualifies.

The projects that could receive funding have to be ready to go by February 2009. If they are funded through the stimulus package and are not started within a few months the money would be rescinded. CATS may have something ready to go, but I doubt it. The BLE is still in planning (not design/engineering) as are the street car and the North Line. Maybe they have some things ready to go. It would be interesting to see if they submitted anything.

[Andyc545]

The projects that could receive funding have to be ready to go by February 2009. If they are funded through the stimulus package and are not started within a few months the money would be rescinded. CATS may have something ready to go, but I doubt it. The BLE is still in planning (not design/engineering) as are the street car and the North Line. Maybe they have some things ready to go. It would be interesting to see if they submitted anything.

From what I understand, CATs has no intentions of qualifying any of the future lines that are in the current designing, engineering, or planning stages as they know that it won't qualify for the IMMEDIATE stimulus, of course assuming that it will happen. Any funding for those projects are separate. From my understanding, what CATs does want to get out of the stimulus is funding for the stations going from 2 car to 3 car, upgrades in the current line (this was very loose, I'm assuming it's some technological upgrades, probally more video cameras along the line and who knows what else), and I can't remember but I want to say additional parking at the P&R's.

[monsoon]

And I don't understand the mentality of paying people who are so protected by a union that they aren't held accountable for anything, make as much as MBA's (with far better benefits), and refuse to allow their job description to be adopted to allow for them to patrol (walk) as opposed to sit all day in a booth. ..

Holding people accountable for their work is a different issue than cutting retirement payments that have already been earned by an individual, or the amount of money and benefits they get for said job. I don't have an issue with that. What I do have an issue with is the concept we would be better by just eliminating all these benefits for everyone, of which, there are plenty that do work hard for their jobs.

[atlrvr]

Can't some of the planning and engineering work for the street car, N and NE lines qualify under the stimulous plan? Maybe all of that is fully funded already?

[Andyc545]

Can't some of the planning and engineering work for the street car, N and NE lines qualify under the stimulous plan? Maybe all of that is fully funded already?

I thought the engineering work was already funded. Wasn't the NE line in the value of something in the $1 to $2 million dollar range? Maybe the streetcar line, I don't think they are as far along with that?

[monsoon]

^The estimated cost of the engineering work on the NE line is somewhere around $35M. The FTA has given CATS a few million dollars towards this amount with no commitments to fund the rest of it. I seem to remember the Charlotte city council voting to do something about the potential shortfall, but I don't remember what. I do think the funding has been secured for the N. Line, but I am not quite sure. The North line plans seem to be a constantly moving target where the details keep changing.

[Andyc545]

^The estimated cost of the engineering work on the NE line is somewhere around $35M. The FTA has given CATS a few million dollars towards this amount with no commitments to fund the rest of it. I seem to remember the Charlotte city council voting to do something about the potential shortfall, but I don't remember what. I do think the funding has been secured for the N. Line, but I am not quite sure. The North line plans seem to be a constantly moving target where the details keep changing.

That's right. I think I was thinking of the money from the FTA to the cause. Aside, if there is this separate stimulus, I'd like to see it go to the station platform extensions; I feel we won't be deprived of our projects based on this stimulus and that the funding will take place separately for these mass transit extensions.