CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Cadi40]

In my opinion commuter lines are outdated and have no place in today’s society where people want freedom. Having a Light rail line gives people freedom to ride trains at set intervals going in two opposite directions.

[Matthew.Brendan]

11 hours ago, Cadi40 said:

In my opinion commuter lines are outdated and have no place in today’s society where people want freedom.

I think maybe you do not grasp how successful commuter lines are. 

[Cadi40]

In the cities I've lived in they aren't, Just my observation.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Cadi40

[Dale]

At the risk of sounding troll-ish, I don’t get the impression that any kind of rail is effective ... in all but a handful of older, larger cities that grew up around rail.

[cltbwimob]

40 minutes ago, Dale said:

At the risk of sounding troll-ish, I don’t get the impression that any kind of rail is effective ... in all but a handful of older, larger cities that grew up around rail.

Define what you mean by effective...Effective at moving people, effective at spurring development, cost effective, effective at alleviating traffic...

Edited August 1, 2018 by cltbwimob

[orulz]

With transit, the service is the product, not the technology. And the difference between Light Rail and Commuter Rail is mostly academic, at least from a service perspective.

IMO the choice should mostly be driven by the routes (Norfolk Southern vs. US 21) and their characteristics, rather than a discussion of the technology. Which route does the best job serving destinations along the corridor? Which one gives the best trip times? Which one has the highest predicted ridership? Which one costs less?

It is perfectly possible to build a "commuter rail" line with the service characteristics identical to light rail. You could add *two* new tracks to the Norfolk Southern corridor so freight and passenger trains never have to cross paths, then hang electric wires, build stations close together, buy EMU trains, and on that physical plant you could certainly run trains every 10 minutes, or less. Recently, Denver did something like this.

With commuter rail, you're mostly (though not *entirely*) stuck to existing railroad rights-of-way, but if those rights-of-way are already in the right place, then that isn't a bad thing at all.

[elrodvt]

^Agreed but I have often heard a rule of thumb that a distance over X miles was not suitable to LRT. Speed? Durability? Not sure why.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

^Agreed but I have often heard a rule of thumb that a distance over X miles was not suitable to LRT. Speed? Durability? Not sure why.

Once you start to move beyond 30 minute trip times you really need to consider things like passenger comfort, so things like comfy seats and access to bathrooms becomes important. You could, in theory, make LRTs with these things but they generally reduce the capacity and efficiency you need for frequent service.

[Scribe]

This is why I am so grateful for Mayor Lyles - no one wants Trump in town, but she is playing a much bigger game, and if we get funding for "big bang" by some miracle out of this, then I would be up for another RNC/DNC round in Charlotte:

Quote

“I’ve been working on those relationships from the day I’d been sworn in,” she said.

But the convention appears to have deepened the relationship. Tillis praised Lyles and called the convention a “great opportunity for us to work across the aisles.”

..

So what will the city get besides an open door?

Charlotte transit officials recently outlined a $7 billion plan that would extend light rail throughout the county, a plan that would need federal and state funding. The city also faces a severe shortage of affordable housing. Jobs, along with the financial incentives it often takes to get them, are always a priority.

“I would hope we would see the ability to move forward on those areas of focus,” Lyles said. “When you’re in that spotlight, you get to talk about both the things you do well as well as the challenges you’re encountering.”

From the Observer https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/rnc-2020/article215898820.html

Edited August 2, 2018 by Scribe

[kermit]

Gaston County really wants LRT to Charlotte. The headline is:

Quote

Plead your case for light rail to Charlotte during this local meeting

It appears the Belmont city manager twisted CATS' arm to have a West Corridor public meeting in Gaston

http://www.gastongazette.com/news/20180802/plead-your-case-for-light-rail-to-charlotte-during-this-local-meeting

[15895]

 

in DC and the burbs it seems like bus routes on all the bus systems are almost all ending or starting at metro stops. And it seems like only a couple “circulator” buses go to Union Station (the Amtrak/bus (IE greyhound, mega bus, other longer distance bus routes). 

 

Pretty much exactly how Charlotte is transitioning to. I think even a lot more routes can be transitioned to the blue line exclusively and the gold like in the near future. And further draw down the transit hub.

mines not based on the riff raff argument. As someone who used mass transit in CLT exclusively the last 2 years.... I rather have my bus route go to a blue line station than go all the way uptown. Transfer, etc. nothing glorious or anything about the transit center uptown nor is it even convenient nor more efficient. 

[kermit]

^ the strategy makes sense, but in order to work well. You gotta have high frequency rail. When you go beyond 6 trains per hour (per direction) the “rail artery” strategy starts to fall apart.

I *really* think the blue line should never be worse than 10 minute headway’s....

[15895]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

^ the strategy makes sense, but in order to work well. You gotta have high frequency rail. When you go beyond 6 trains per hour (per direction) the “rail artery” strategy starts to fall apart.

I *really* think the blue line should never be worse than 10 minute headway’s....

 

Metro on Sunday is every 15 minutes and every 12 minutes on Saturday. 20 minutes after 9:30.

And yes, Blue/Silver/Orange share tracks in DC, but they’ve been running the silver line only from Ballston to Whiele and the Orange and Blue line are usually a within 2 minutes of eachother so it’s a solid wait on weekends. But The weekends on metro are just as annoyingly long of a wait as Lynx - if not seemingly longer. 

Lynx is really a great system. It’s hours are quite longer than metro. It has a good frequency. Operationally it’s way better (metro is basically going to be completely shut down for 2 weeks starting Aug. 11th with most 80% service reduction and extreme delays, single tracking, etc. nothing new, unfortunately) 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[dubone]

It certainly is important for our city leaders to be proper politicians and forge relationships with those in power, especially those that represent our city, regardless of their party affiliation.  

 

Transportation is important for all of us, and we are a growing city that needs to plan as well as possible to be a city of 2-5 million people in the next 2-3 decades.   The world didn't end in the 1940s, so we too can be a city that grows up around rail, just in the 21st century.     If we double our population again, as cities like Charlotte have done, we will need those corridors bought, built, and maintained in addition to core widening of our expressway arteries, growth of our airport, growth of our freight corridors, etc.    It is all part of planning so that when we do double in size, that everyone and everything is not locked in terminal gridlock.     

In 1980, Atlanta metro was the population that Charlotte is today.  By 2000 they were double that and now are triple that.      Who knows if Charlotte has the ability to attract and grow population like that, only time will tell.  But it is not that much to invest in a corridor now, even if it would have been preferable to have reserved those corridors 100 years ago.  But we have money now, so let's invest it now.      It will still be better to invest to plan for that growth.  

 

I loved the meeting last week, and all the options look really interesting.     I have my personal favorites, but most of those plans seem like they have a lot of merit.   I was reminded of just how far LKN is that CATS is showing an hour of travel time, though.    It really feels like it may be far reasonable as BRT Express Bus with stations, which they showed as a 40 minute travel time.  That said, in the long run, it is probably better to build and protect a corridor to mitigate growth risk in the long run.  

[deleted]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/31/opinions/barreling-toward-trillion-dollar-deficits-macguineas/index.html

This is truly not a political post (so let's not turn it into one) but I do sincerely wonder how the deficit and debt levels in coming years will impact Federal contributions to our transit projects?  I'm guessing we will need to raise a lot more than 50% of the cost.  As a Union County resident, I'd gladly pay for the system with higher taxes.  I wonder if others in Union, Gaston, York, Cabarrus, etc., feel the same?  I don't think this thing gets built if they rely only on Mecklenburg taxpayers.

[nmundo]

I wonder why they don’t just single track or do this work over night. It’s also during the first weekend after UNCC starts classes...


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[kermit]

^ yea, it was a huge mistake to pick that weekend because of the start of UNCC — you only get one chance to make a first impression on students who have not ridden before.

[orulz]

Maybe it's intentional, to avoid raucous student crowds?

[tozmervo]

3 hours ago, nmundo said:

 

 

I wonder why they don’t just single track or do this work over night. It’s also during the first weekend after UNCC starts classes...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This is like the fourth year in a row they've closed the line for a weekend in August. One year it was Pride weekend, that was fun. I don't know what they so that entails shutting down for that long, but I hope it at least staves of the maintenance problems other, older systems experience

[kermit]

Some good news for Charlotte’s big bang plans, aparently the last transportation authorization bill required the FTA to:

Quote

• Establish a program that allows transit agencies to develop multiple projects at once using the FTA’s capital investment grants, in order to encourage regional planning. (Think of how Los Angeles and Seattle are building multiple new rail lines as part of decades-long, system-wide plans.)

So its nice to know that their might be a fed program that is intended to support projects like the big bang. However, this program is one of the many things that the FTA has purposely not been doing (including dispersing allocated funds) despite being directed to by Congress.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/08/what-an-anti-transit-federal-transit-administration-looks-like/568261/

Edited August 26, 2018 by kermit

[kermit]

Some news from the Durham-Orange LRT project that might suggest a model for our big bang. Since the state has flaked multiple times on committing to fund its portion of the project it now looks like they will use the following funding breakdown for their FFGA:

Total Project Cost: $2.5 billion (a bit more than 1/3 the big bang?)

• 50% from the Federal Government (crossing fingers on election....)
• 42% from local sales tax (1/2 cent -- about $30 million per year), auto registration / rental car surcharge (about $20 million per year) -- $1.05 billion total  
• 7% from NCDOT STI program (I believe the state revised its previous  promise of 10% of total project cost policy down to this $190 million figure. The state paid 25% of the Blue Line and BLE but did not contribute to the GoldLine)

The reduction is contribution from the state forced Durham county to find an extra $57 million in their couch cushions (they jiggered their transit tax revenue future estimates -- this will bite them when the next recession arrives)

The NCGA have really behaved like clowns on this. The original plan was to put transit projects into the same ranking system they use to select road projects. It turned out that transit projects score very well in their ranking system so they decided to move the goalposts. While some might say the state shouldn't be funding local transit projects, this is BS since the state will receive some significant corporate tax revenue boosts if the line is able to stimulate denser development in the Western Triangle.

While I think the system will create significant benefits for Durham and CH I gotta say I continue to be appalled by the route. While it does connect two huge hospitals to a rapidly redeveloping downtown Durham (but there is not a ton of employment there), it appears that 90% of the route is either through strip-center parking lots or woods. AFAIK there is no plan to encourage TOD at those strip centers. Better connections to UNC campus and downtown Chapel Hill plus MASSIVE redevelopment along 15-501 have got to happen for this project to have a shot at success. Even then I fear travel times between Durham and CH are just too long to attract many choice riders.

TLDR: Charlotte has a much better plan for transit expansion thanks to our monocentric urban form

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/durham-county/article217397240.html

Edited August 28, 2018 by kermit

[tozmervo]

Norfolk Southern really putting the O-line to work. (It's been like this for three weeks.)

[Hushpuppy321]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:56 PM, kermit said:

Some news from the Durham-Orange LRT project that might suggest a model for our big bang. Since the state has flaked multiple times on committing to fund its portion of the project it now looks like they will use the following funding breakdown for their FFGA:

Total Project Cost: $2.5 billion (a bit more than 1/3 the big bang?)

• 50% from the Federal Government (crossing fingers on election....)
• 42% from local sales tax (1/2 cent -- about $30 million per year), auto registration / rental car surcharge (about $20 million per year) -- $1.05 billion total  
• 7% from NCDOT STI program (I believe the state revised its previous  promise of 10% of total project cost policy down to this $190 million figure. The state paid 25% of the Blue Line and BLE but did not contribute to the GoldLine)

The reduction is contribution from the state forced Durham county to find an extra $57 million in their couch cushions (they jiggered their transit tax revenue future estimates -- this will bite them when the next recession arrives)

The NCGA have really behaved like clowns on this. The original plan was to put transit projects into the same ranking system they use to select road projects. It turned out that transit projects score very well in their ranking system so they decided to move the goalposts. While some might say the state shouldn't be funding local transit projects, this is BS since the state will receive some significant corporate tax revenue boosts if the line is able to stimulate denser development in the Western Triangle.

While I think the system will create significant benefits for Durham and CH I gotta say I continue to be appalled by the route. While it does connect two huge hospitals to a rapidly redeveloping downtown Durham (but there is not a ton of employment there), it appears that 90% of the route is either through strip-center parking lots or woods. AFAIK there is no plan to encourage TOD at those strip centers. Better connections to UNC campus and downtown Chapel Hill plus MASSIVE redevelopment along 15-501 have got to happen for this project to have a shot at success. Even then I fear travel times between Durham and CH are just too long to attract many choice riders.

TLDR: Charlotte has a much better plan for transit expansion thanks to our monocentric urban form

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/durham-county/article217397240.html

I been doing some studying of the Durham-Orange Lightrail Line and I totally agree with all of the above comments.  I didn't realize at first (couple years ago when proposed) just how spread out and Non-urban that environment is along the planned alignment because I mostly lived in Wake County.  I just hope that if it gets off the ground with Construction that CATS 'Big Bang' in Charlotte gets funding too.   I think the Durham-Orange LRT line will struggle for many decades with ridership.  The make up of the Triangle Metro Area's population is just so diffuse between Durham / Orange & Wake County.  Commuter Rail between the Counties could make more sense.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Hushpuppy321

[ChessieCat]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:56 PM, kermit said:

While I think the system will create significant benefits for Durham and CH I gotta say I continue to be appalled by the route.

The sad thing is that the NCRR already exists and is STATE-OWNED!!!  Just build some extra passenger-only rails along the corridor to connect Durham, RTP, Linwood, Cary, NCSU and Raleigh.  Throw in a people-mover to RDU.  Start with a diesel-powered Tram-train to keep costs low.  Why is it so hard?!

Edited August 30, 2018 by ChessieCat

[kermit]

25 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

The sad thing is that the NCRR already exists and is STATE-OWNED!!!  Just build some extra passenger-only rails along the corridor to connect Durham, RTP, Linwood, Cary, NCSU and Raleigh.  Throw in a people-mover to RDU.  Start with a diesel-powered Tram-train to keep costs low.  Why is it so hard?!

You are 100% correct. However that approach alone would leave out Chapel Hill, so the very sub-optimal LRT becomes necessary.