CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Scribe]

Note: I am re-posting this from the Gateway Station thread as it also makes sense to discuss it on the light rail thread)

Look at this little gem (from https://www.charlottegatewaydistrict.com/) note the Silver Line alignment and how it:

• crosses under I-277 at Caldwell or Davidson and then stays within I-277
• stops on the outside of the Gateway Station
• breaks west out past I-77
• follows Morehead out to US 74 (Wilkinson Blvd)
• follows Wilkinson out toward the Airport (I would guess in the median like N Tryon)

[kermit]

Go Triangle commissioned an ED study of the DOLRT line and it has just been released. Based on the press release it appears that the study focused on changes in property value (and property tax revenues) around station areas. The headline figure was that DOLRT was expected to generate an additional $1.4 to $1.9 billion in property tax revenue over the next 40 years through densification (replacing underused surface parking with office space has a pretty big payoff). This is for station areas along a 17.7 mile line (about 3ish miles shorter than the Silver-West line IIRC).

Expect to see similar math here for the big bang. I suspect that our incremental property tax numbers would be somewhat larger thanks to land values in uptown, connectivity advantages of our larger network and our (suspected) routing through the least developed portions of uptown (along the Brookshire).

The implication is clear, the LRT should easily pay for itself over time (even before accounting for fare revenue). While this type of analysis might suggest that  bonds / TIFF financing are possible for CATS these figures in the Triangle are predictions, not certainties — bonding based on these sorts of numbers would be a risk.

https://gotriangle.org/news/how-guiding-growth-around-light-rail-stations-can-generate-14-billion-new-tax-revenue-thousands

Edited December 8, 2018 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

It's good to hear that our region can use TIF Financing as an option to fund Transit.  I believe that the initial Blue Line Lightrail more than proves its viability.  TIF funding usually runs into problems when future planned Tax Revenue isn't generated at the proposed levels

[kermit]

On 12/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, kermit said:

As an aside, NS has recently shifted into downsizing mode (precision scheduled railroading), so it would not surprise me if they are discussing the idea of shortlining  many of their branch routes. While the O line tracks would ordinarily  be a prime candidate for this efficiency-driven downsizing, there are several political and network roadblocks to them selling these tracks (NS needs to keep them as a negotiating tool for their next NCRR lease). Despite my pessimism, CATS had better be double checking this with NS since their perspective on their ideal network has shifted.

And right on cue NS sells a couple of branch lines in the NYC area for use as commuter rail....

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/12/11-norfolk-southern-to-spin-off-branches-commuter-line-trackage-rights-in-nj-ny

[Scribe]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:10 PM, kermit said:

And right on cue NS sells a couple of branch lines in the NYC area for use as commuter rail....

if only we would be so lucky for NS to sell their line north of Uptown through LKN area!

[kermit]

I am dubious but this was in the Post & Courier article on the new Panthers practice facility in Ft Mill:

Quote

One location under serious consideration is an 80-acre site of the former Knights Stadium and Charlotte Hornets practice facility off Interstate 77 in Fort Mill, 15 miles south of the Panthers stadium in downtown Charlotte. There’s talk of extending a light rail line from Charlotte into York County as part of the project.

Hat tip to InSouthPark in the Panther's thread

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/carolina-panthers-plan-to-build-team-hq-practice-facility-in/article_7edc90a2-fd98-11e8-b43f-9baf45c6f9a4.html

EDIT: A (roughly) 6 mile extension from 485 (with a bridge over 485) is gonna be more than $250 million (perhaps a lot more). There isn't much else around the site that would be a decent traffic generator. This seems like nothing more than hot air to me.

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by kermit

[Scribe]

At least there are pretty straight paths for it.  Having 2 nice Park-n-Ride decks south of the border would sure help I-77 traffic!

And add 2 miles to the line and you  reach Baxter (or LPL Financial HQ)

[a2theb]

On 12/6/2018 at 1:46 PM, Scribe said:

Note: I am re-posting this from the Gateway Station thread as it also makes sense to discuss it on the light rail thread)

Look at this little gem (from https://www.charlottegatewaydistrict.com/) note the Silver Line alignment and how it:

• crosses under I-277 at Caldwell or Davidson and then stays within I-277
• stops on the outside of the Gateway Station
• breaks west out past I-77
• follows Morehead out to US 74 (Wilkinson Blvd)
• follows Wilkinson out toward the Airport (I would guess in the median like N Tryon)

Confused on the silver line proposal.

 

Without going underground, I don't see how you send it down Calvert St. and on to Morehead. Space in that corridor seems a bit limited. 

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, a2theb said:

Without going underground, I don't see how you send it down Calvert St. and on to Morehead

Not sure myself. Could be following the I-77 off-ramp, or go closer to Summit Ave

One thing I am pretty sure about, they would go elevated/bridge before going underground.

 

[asthasr]

On 12/12/2018 at 3:41 PM, Scribe said:

At least there are pretty straight paths for it. 

Gonna be expensive to put it straight through SFH subdivisions... a quick Zillow tells me that some of those houses are well north of $400k.

[archiham04]

On 12/12/2018 at 4:04 PM, Scribe said:

Not sure myself. Could be following the I-77 off-ramp, or go closer to Summit Ave

One thing I am pretty sure about, they would go elevated/bridge before going underground.

 

If you look at the grade of I-77 here the interstate is elevated on a mound of dirt between the rail and Morehead.  So I  it would likely be effective to remove the dirt from beneath the interstate, and run the train under the interstate, especially if they are looking to upgrade the interstate here.

[kermit]

FWIW Metro Houston has unveiled a $7.5 billion transit expansion plan (40 projects, largely LRT and BRT expansion, to be completed by 2040). Details on funding sources are sketchy but one presentation says "Bus and LRT infrastructure projects are financed using 45% debt/55% grant funds." The same presentation also posits "No increase in sales tax rate" and "no increase in property tax" [I don't know enough about any of those numbers to defend or refute them]

If this level of investment were scaled by metro area population it would translate to $2.86 billion in Charlotte.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Houston-METROs-75-billion-plan-would-double-light-rail-system--56322

http://www.metronext.org/pdfs/2018_july_board_presentation.pdf

 

[Guest]

When do you think we'll get info's on bus ridership after their system over-haul. I know it's going to be a few more months, I just can't wait.

Since the city has lost so much ridership (-12%) in a year or so, just having the bus ridership remain steady would be a major victory.

Then debate can be pivoted to improving the bus service, and less of the expensive and more risky light rail projects.

[Dale]

1 hour ago, mazman34340 said:

When do you think we'll get info's on bus ridership after their system over-haul. I know it's going to be a few more months, I just can't wait.

Since the city has lost so much ridership (-12%) in a year or so, just having the bus ridership remain steady would be a major victory.

Then debate can be pivoted to improving the bus service, and less of the expensive and more risky light rail projects.

Where can I read about the bus overhaul ?

[southslider]

2 hours ago, Dale said:

Where can I read about the bus overhaul ?

https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/envisionmyride/Pages/envision-my-ride.aspx

[Dale]

Just now, southslider said:

https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/envisionmyride/Pages/envision-my-ride.aspx

Thanks!

[elrodvt]

Does anyone take the train out to the 49r basketball games? How often do the circulator busses run at the time a game lets out? I'm debating whether this will work for my 90 mom who's in excellent shape. I would just walk over.

[kermit]

An Austrialian study found that 20 minutes of walking saving society $8.43 aud (appx $6.05 usd) over what society would spend on making driving possible. A $1aud expenditure on walking infrastructure returns $13 aud. 

We need to find a way to use the walking dividend to finance transit.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/learning-bad-habits-the-8-benefit-of-your-morning-walk-20181212-p50lr6.html

 

[southslider]

^To truly change the culture, walking needs to include children. CMS needs to reuse in-town older schools once again as neighborhood schools.

[Dale]

Speaking of walking, honest question: why are Millennials,  who so prize the pursuit of health, riding electric scooters ? It’s not like Uptown and surrounds encompass vast distances.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Probably because it’s fun?? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[15895]

6 minutes ago, Dale said:

Speaking of walking, honest question: why are Millennials,  who so prize the pursuit of health, riding electric scooters ? It’s not like Uptown and surrounds encompass vast distances.

 

Because it saves time and it’s fun, too.

 

Urban millenials  have never been anti-car, we’ve been “all of the above.” Car sharing,  bikes, busses, street car, light rail, electric scooters, greenways, etc etc. 

 

[Dale]

12 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

Because it saves time and it’s fun, too.

 

Urban millenials  have never been anti-car, we’ve been “all of the above.” Car sharing,  bikes, busses, street car, light rail, electric scooters, greenways, etc etc. 

 

I get mass-transit and ride sharing for comparatively long distance. But that’s presumably not what scooters are for. If purely for fun, I get it. But I’m an older suburbanite who things nothing of parking in a peripheral garage and walking Uptown end-to-end. Doesn’t take long at all. And it’s not like younger folks Uptown are having to scramble from one class to the next.

Maybe Millennials have inherited “Hurry! Hurry!Busy! Busy!” From their parents.

[15895]

38 minutes ago, Dale said:

I get mass-transit and ride sharing for comparatively long distance. But that’s presumably not what scooters are for. If purely for fun, I get it. But I’m an older suburbanite who things nothing of parking in a peripheral garage and walking Uptown end-to-end. Doesn’t take long at all. And it’s not like younger folks Uptown are having to scramble from one class to the next.

Maybe Millennials have inherited “Hurry! Hurry!Busy! Busy!” From their parents.

 

 

But we actually live in the urban areas you park in garages for.  The idea of walking through uptown may be more novel for you vs. those living there. 

 

Walking uptown end to end round trip for a quick convenience item or to go to the post office, etc gets old. Imagine if you just needed something from Metropolitan and you live in Novel Stonewall. It’s .9 miles. Or a 20 minute walk according to google. That’s 40 minutes round trip.  Sometimes the walk is lovely, it’s a beautiful day. Some days you just wanna get what you need and get back home. I think scooters are supposed to solve the “first mile / last mile” problem 

 

And as noted, it’s fun af. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[SgtCampsalot]

Working Uptown, I've been late returning from lunch break many times because walking can take deceptively long, especially after needing to browse/stand in line at my destination for a few minutes longer than preferred.

Now, the REAL solution is to lobby the United States of America to push for a 90 minute or 2-hour lunch break, nationwide, because a 1-hour lunch break is an absolute joke. WHO'S WITH ME?!