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CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines


monsoon

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Case Closed.

Good find, except it is downtown Nashville, so again functioning more as a parking shuttle. On that note, Panthers games may someday warrant special Purple Line service to the nearby Gateway Terminal.

It also doesn't help that Charlotte's system isn't and won't be set up well for suburb-to-suburb commutes. Only the largest cities tend to have more than a hub-and-spokes system. For example, those destined to employment in Mt. Mourne will have a transfer penalty in Uptown if they don't live within a reasonable walk- or drive-access distance of a Purple Line station. But at least those traveling to Lowe's are doing so at peak times of congestion (and Mt. Mourne also picks up Uptown-working Mooresville commuters), whereas Metrolina would be hosting events at off-peak times with ample free parking.

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CATS already runs special event service on the blue line, running extra trains and stacking in uptown for all sorts of events, from Panthers to Speed Street to big TWC events.

It's interesting that you linked to the Music City Star as an example of CR special event service. I believe it was last year for the fourth of july that they way, way oversold tickets for fireworks service. Obviously it can be done... they just need to do it better :)

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At this point the highest revenue train trip to have existed in this area was the DMU commuter rail trip that went from Huntersville to Charlotte in the mid-90s (pre-CATS). It was packed. The cost for a ticket was over $5.

I would not call the CATS service to the stadium a "special events" service since they, as part of the 1/2 cent tax justification, said they would serve the stadium. Aside from that, it takes place during their normal operating hours for this train.

..It also doesn't help that Charlotte's system isn't and won't be set up well for suburb-to-suburb commutes. ...
That's because CATS hasn't had the foresight to add this provision. Nothing more nothing less. There is nothing to stop them from sending a train there. Of course CATS really doesn't want to build the North line so they are not doing anything that might increase ridership on it, lest it get some interest.
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Apparently we're speaking different languages. Increasing train frequency beyond the standard timetable to serve extra crowds for a football game certainly sounds a lot like special service to me. If your definition is only going beyond normal operating hours, CATS has extended operating times for the fourth and first night past the typical last trip.

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Yeah, you're right on that, but there would be the added cost of building a station. I admit I'm not aware of what a potential schedule would be for the North line, so I don't know if trains would run frequently enough to make this worthwhile.

The West Corridor streetcar alignment map includes an "Events Only" Stadium station. I definitely don't think its beyond reason to suggest there could be an events only station for the north line.

As for the schedule, I recall reading half hour at peak, hour off-peak. I don't know if that's max capacity or planned capacity.

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I don't think a special station is necessary at all for service to the football stadium, as the Gateway station will be about 3 blocks away.

Running special trains on game day would seem like a no brainer to me. Sunday service, including a guaranteed ride home after the game lets out (even if it goes to double overtime and ends after midnight) would be very popular. Or at least they should try it out to see how popular it is.

Commuter trains can hold an awful lot of people when it's standing room only.

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^ Right and don't forget that Gateway will also have a SEHSR station for intercity trains from throughout the Piedmont and ultimately to DC. One day, the trains may be as frequent (between Charlotte & Raleigh) as 10 or more per day :) , but in the mean time, a couple of special event trains for 8 Panthers games would be an enticing proposition, as people already travel many hours for these games.

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From right here on UrbanPlanet. See this link. And this is from a commuter rail agency of much more modest means than CATS. They also run trains for ballgames and special downtown events. This is something that I have almost never seen CATS do with trains or buses. Case Closed.

what do you mean "case closed"? I have seen extra trains parked beyond 7th Street waiting for the end of games at the arena to handle the rush of outbound patrons

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Hypothetical: Let's say that NCMF is REALLY popular, a HUGE regional draw.

How would you connect NCMF to an equally popular, fully built-out train network?

Extend the West Corridor along Smith St. to 9th and then Johnson St. into the site? Would you terminate at the site? If you're going to extend it, would you go out past NCMF? To where?

Is there a better way to do it? We've been talking about "special stops" on the Purple Line...

Any other ideas?

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^Well..... The entrance to the proposed facility is less than 400 ft from the proposed Purple Line track. Seems to me that putting a platform there would be a fairly easy thing to do.

That's probably the most cost effective thing to do right now, all things considered - it's cheaper to stop and restart a diesel engine - than to build an extension for a streetcar line. The problem is frequency of trains. If NCMF is extremely popular, you're going to need at least 3 trains an hour. And would it be annoying to be a Cornelius commuter, waiting 5 - 10 extra minutes on every ride in/outbound because of an extra inner city station?

Boston's MBTA has commuter trains that have inner city stops before they actually start their commuter routes. I think there's a couple of inner city stops on a couple lines - most of them about 1 mile from South or North Station. But the stations the commuter trains stop at are also on the regular T lines (Orange Line I think). But I'm not sure if the Orange Line trains share the same tracks as the commuter trains... is it possible to share tracks with commuter trains and heavy rail? I can't remember how it's set up. Anyway, I am sure a streetcar would never be allowed to use the same tracks as a commuter train.

Assuming it costs "x" amount more to stop and restart a diesel train, and it costs "y" to build an extension of the West Line, I wonder how many years it might take for "y" to be more cost effective.

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... But I'm not sure if the Orange Line trains share the same tracks as the commuter trains... is it possible to share tracks with commuter trains and heavy rail?.....
If by heavy rail you mean freight lines, no, LRT EMUs are prohibited from using these lines for safety reasons. Commuter rail trains are OK on freight lines since they are essentially Amtrak style trains that have been configured for short haul use. The tracks still have to be brought up to passenger level standards however. If you mean heavy rail passenger EMUs like say the DC Metro, I don't think so, but I am not sure. I can't say that I have ever seen anything like that.
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If by heavy rail you mean freight lines, no, LRT EMUs are prohibited from using these lines for safety reasons. Commuter rail trains are OK on freight lines since they are essentially Amtrak style trains that have been configured for short haul use. The tracks still have to be brought up to passenger level standards however. If you mean heavy rail passenger EMUs like say the DC Metro, I don't think so, but I am not sure. I can't say that I have ever seen anything like that.

Yeah I meant a combination of heavy rail (subway) trains: Orange Line, running on the same tracks as the commuter trains. I'm just trying to remember how the stations worked specifically at Back Bay Station, and Ruggles Station which functioned as both a subway train station, and one of a few inner-city stops on the Framingham commuter train line. I can't remember if it was the same platform (meaning the same actual tracks) or what... either way, I know Charlotte would never see a LTR or Streetcar sharing tracks with a commuter or freight train - because of the overhead power source needed. Hmm, that makes me wonder - how different is the overhead power supply for HSR trains compared to, say, LTR?

Edited by The Escapists
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.... Hmm, that makes me wonder - how different is the overhead power supply for HSR trains compared to, say, LTR?
The HSR in Japan uses 25,000V AC power. This is because of the high amount of energy needed to propel such a large train at 187 mph and DC is not suitable for long distances. I believe the Acela also uses 25,000V lines. The Charlotte LRT is using 750V DC which is very common. The Houston version of this same train uses 1500V DC found on newer systems. I think CLT went with the lower voltage to maintain compatibility with the Trolley. DC has been commonly used for LRT and subways because it is simpler to implement. (have to understand the differences beween the way AC and DC motors work)

The Shinkanen is actually a very advanced set of EMUs just like the CLT Lynx EMUs. What I mean by that is there isn't a locomotive pulling carriages. All of the Shinkanzen cars are powered with drive motors and the vehicle that looks like the locomotive is really a control vehicle instead. More traditional trains like the French TGV and Acela are designed with a power locomotive pulling cars. Most of the newer designs are headed to the EMU approach. Long winded answer to to your question.

One final note related to your question. Cleveland has a single heavy rail line, built in the 50s, as well as a couple of light rail lines built more recently. The heavy rail line operates as a traditional 3 rail line inside their downtown area, but once it hits suburban service it raises a pantograph to attach to overhead wires as there is no 3 rail outside the city. It's fairly unique in this ability.

Something else worth knowing. In the USA we get confused with the terminology of heavy rail vs light rail. Everywhere else in the world they use the terms metro and tram. i.e. DC has a metro, Charlotte has a tram.

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The HSR in Japan uses 25,000V AC power. This is because of the high amount of energy needed to propel such a large train at 187 mph and DC is not suitable for long distances. I believe the Acela also uses 25,000V lines. The Charlotte LRT is using 750V DC which is very common. The Houston version of this same train uses 1500V DC found on newer systems. I think CLT went with the lower voltage to maintain compatibility with the Trolley. DC has been commonly used for LRT and subways because it is simpler to implement. (have to understand the differences beween the way AC and DC motors work)

The Shinkanen is actually a very advanced set of EMUs just like the CLT Lynx EMUs. What I mean by that is there isn't a locomotive pulling carriages. All of the Shinkanzen cars are powered with drive motors and the vehicle that looks like the locomotive is really a control vehicle instead. More traditional trains like the French TGV and Acela are designed with a power locomotive pulling cars. Most of the newer designs are headed to the EMU approach. Long winded answer to to your question.

One final note related to your question. Cleveland has a single heavy rail line, built in the 50s, as well as a couple of light rail lines built more recently. The heavy rail line operates as a traditional 3 rail line inside their downtown area, but once it hits suburban service it raises a pantograph to attach to overhead wires as there is no 3 rail outside the city. It's fairly unique in this ability.

Thanks for the answers!

In my curiosity, I noticed pictures of commuter rail (diesel engines) operating on the same tracks as the Acela. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's because some of the Bos-NYC trains have switched from diesel to electric power but they still run on the same tracks. So it's not out of the questions for a set of rails to work for both electric and diesel trains (the diesel trains just don't tie into to overhead source). So this all comes back to the main idea: What if, instead of the Purple Line commuter train making an extra stop at NCMF, an extension of the West Corridor streetcar were to spur onto the commuter track for one more stop at NCMF?

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^Because the street car would not be allowed onto the CR track because it is considered an active freight line. Norfolk and Southern owns the track and CATS will get to "borrow" it for CR usage. N&S potentially agreed to this arrangement because CATS will have to pay to upgrade all the tracks which is a big benefit to N&S. Some sections of that track are in pretty bad repair. Streetcars and LRT EMUs are not allowed to share tracks with freight.

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^Because the street car would not be allowed onto the CR track because it is considered an active freight line. Norfolk and Southern owns the track and CATS will get to "borrow" it for CR usage. N&S potentially agreed to this arrangement because CATS will have to pay to upgrade all the tracks which is a big benefit to N&S. Some sections of that track are in pretty bad repair. Streetcars and LRT EMUs are not allowed to share tracks with freight.

Is this because they fear a LTR or Streetcar could not withstand a potential collision with a freight train - and a Commuter train could? Are there other reasons?

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Is this because they fear a LTR or Streetcar could not withstand a potential collision with a freight train - and a Commuter train could? Are there other reasons?

Yes. A freight locomotive which (and similiar CR locomotive) are built to much much heavier standards and nothing survives a collision with them except for maybe another locomotive. Freight and CR lines also operate at higher speeds and take longer distances to stop. A crash with a light weight EMU would look like a Honda civic hitting a semi truck. A single GE diesel-electric locomotive can easily weigh a 500,000 lbs when fueled and you might see several of these in tandem on a freight line. Compare that to the Lynx Siemens S70 which weighs 97,000 lbs.

So the FTA will not allow light rail to operate on freight lines except in very rare cases. The NJ transit Riverview line (I think that is the name of it) is a fairly innovative diesel powered LRT type train that shares tracks with a freight line. They did this by getting an agreement that freight would only run at night when the passenger train wasn't running.

A collision between a CR train and freight train would not be good either, but remember a CR train is essentially an Amtrak style train configured for short distance travel, and freight and passenger trains of this type have used the same tracks for the entire history train travel in the USA. Personally I think the FTA is overly conservative on this matter, but then again they have the difficult job in what they are being asked to do. At one time there used to be routine horrific accidents on US train lines. Yearly passenger death counts were running as high as 10,000-15,000, maybe even higher.

CATS has never said what kind of train they will use for the North CR line, but on one brochure I saw a few years ago, appeared to show a standard diesel electric locomotive, maybe a GE Genesis, pulling carriages. I heard David Carroll remark once about using a DMU but he was non-committal about it. I don't know if the FTA has finally qualified DMUs to run on freight so this might not be a possibility anyway.

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CATS has never said what kind of train they will use for the North CR line, but on one brochure I saw a few years ago, appeared to show a standard diesel electric locomotive, maybe a GE Genesis, pulling carriages. I heard David Carroll remark once about using a DMU but he was non-committal about it. I don't know if the FTA has finally qualified DMUs to run on freight so this might not be a possibility anyway.

They havn't finalized the deal...but CATS does have an option to buy the same trainsets that Minnesota is using for their Northstar Commuter Rail currently under construction. They are using Motive Power MP-36 pulling Passenger Cars designed by Bombardier.

Locomotive

6087.1235801874.jpg

Similar Passenger Cars

2471432095_a236b1cd1d_o.jpg

Also regarding DMU's running on Freight tracks...Austin,TX is going to open their DMU service pretty soon. It will be the first system in the USA to run DMU on existing (and active) freight tracks.

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