CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[jthomas]

31 minutes ago, kermit said:

In what may be the finest piece of transit journalism ever, Mary Newsome explains the absence of the Red Line and its prospects for the future (which are dim):

https://ui.uncc.edu/story/growing-congestion-empty-tracks-why-theres-still-no-red-line-north-meck

The story even includes the memo drafted between NS and CATS that gave CATS permission to use the line between 6am and 8pm for $22 million dollars.

https://ui.uncc.edu/sites/ui.uncc.edu/files/media/Memo to File on NS O Line 100308.pdf

The story does a great job of explaining why NS changed their mind on the non-binding agreement.

Anyway, this is outstanding writing. HIGHLY RECOMMEND!

Great article. A perfect example of why rail infrastructure should be nationalized ASAP. We wouldn't dream of allowing UPS or Amazon to own and operate, say, I-85. Why should an intransigent private company hold a valuable transportation asset hostage?

[Blue_Devil]

5 minutes ago, jthomas said:

Great article. A perfect example of why rail infrastructure should be nationalized ASAP. We wouldn't dream of allowing UPS or Amazon to own and operate, say, I-85. Why should an intransigent private company hold a valuable transportation asset hostage?

Who built the rail? Honest question. If Amazon built a private highway to ship goods and invested that money and time into maintaining the infrastructure I would say its there... Same with an Airport or a Harbor. 

[kermit]

On 3/30/2021 at 1:41 PM, Blue_Devil said:

Who built the rail? Honest question. If Amazon built a private highway to ship goods and invested that money and time into maintaining the infrastructure I would say its there... Same with an Airport or a Harbor. 

There is not a straightforward answer to this question with railroads in the US. Many routes were built with land grants from the federal government.  Nearly all of them had heavy government assistance in the form of regulation (e.g. power of eminent domain and exclusive franchise agreements) as well as promises of large government contracts for moving mail and military goods. In return for substantial subsidies, the railroad companies agreed to provide regulated passenger services on their tracks (a responsibility now largely fulfilled by Amtrak). Its true that most US railroads are privately owned, but few would exist without the significant investments they received from the public.

Edit: In the case of this specific line (the Atlantic, Tennessee and Ohio) wikipedia tells us this:

Quote

The railroad completed construction of 45.29 miles (72.89 km) of 5 ft (1,524 mm)^[3]gauge railroad line between Charlotte, North Carolina, and Statesville, North Carolina, in 1860.^[4] Some time in 1863, the Confederate States of America dismantled the railroad and used it in construction of the Piedmont Railroad as a matter of military necessity.^[4] With the assistance of $147,000 in bonds of the State of North Carolina, authorized by act of the legislature ratified February 3, 1869, the railroad line was reconstructed.^[4] It was reopened on June 22, 1871.^[4]

So it appears that the citizens of North Carolina have paid to build this line at least once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic,_Tennessee_and_Ohio_Railroad

[I am not suggesting that any of this justifies the nationalization of any US railroads, just that the question of ownership of US railroads is much more complicated than we often assume it to be]

Edited April 1, 2021 by kermit

[jthomas]

13 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

Who built the rail? Honest question. If Amazon built a private highway to ship goods and invested that money and time into maintaining the infrastructure I would say its there... Same with an Airport or a Harbor. 

The rails were built by historical predecessors of the modern-day railroads. I am not advocating that the infrastructure be taken without compensation. Nationalization would be a very pricey proposition, but I believe that it would be in the public's best interest. And frankly, I would think it would be in the railroads' interest to get out from the maintenance obligation and to become purely operators. Currently, railroads are more or less limited to operating on tracks they own. Nationalization of infrastructure should include open access, which would give the railroads new markets to serve and compete in.

ETA - @kermit makes a great point about the involvement of the government with the private companies.

Edited March 30, 2021 by jthomas

[videtur quam contuor]

I was formulating my reply but you said it better, Kermit. The expense of these grand projects for rail, road, sea,  and air has never been within the ability of a private company to accomplish. To the extent that the transportation and trade increases wealth the public expense is repaid with higher value of all surrounding properties and tax receipts of the companies.

[JacksonH]

3 hours ago, jthomas said:

Great article. A perfect example of why rail infrastructure should be nationalized ASAP. We wouldn't dream of allowing UPS or Amazon to own and operate, say, I-85. Why should an intransigent private company hold a valuable transportation asset hostage?

Exactly.  By turning it over to a private company, that company will only have its own interests (maximizing its own personal profits) in mind, which could be to the detriment of other companies, and to private citizens, who also need the use of that road or railroad.  I think this sort of thing works best when the government, looking out for the greater public good (as long as they're not bought by lobbyists) handles the oversight and allows private companies to compete to build (but not own) the infrastructure.  Imagine if we turned over ownership of our military to a private company.  Yikes!

[elrodvt]

Unfortunately we have turned over a good chunk of our military to private firms such as the infamous Halivburton

[JacksonH]

2 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Unfortunately we have turned over a good chunk of our military to private firms such as the infamous Halivburton

Yes, that's what happens when lobbying poisons government policy and decisions.  If we could get that influence out of the process so that the government truly picks the best contractors for the job, and the government's oversight function works properly, then it can be an ideal situation.  I would like to think that the Haliburton situation reflects the exception rather than the rule.  I review a lot of government contracts in my work and I think they are usually awarded in good faith, at least in the case of the contracting activities I have interacted with.

[rancenc]

And in Europe as opposed to in the USA, airports are completely privately owned or there is a private/public ownership for virtually all air facilities on the continent.

https://www.internationalairportreview.com/article/22335/private-ownership-european-airports-increases/

[RugbyPike#11]

On 3/25/2021 at 2:14 PM, kermit said:

Southeast Rail Conference report. A NCDOT rail rep says:

2024 Open date for Gateway Station which will coincide with a new Piedmont frequency.

Harrisburg Station remains under development -- which will grease the wheels for commuter rail to Salisbury.

If commuter rail is feasible on the NCRR track, is the western portion of the Silver Live necessary?  Compare the routes of the silver line (gray on map embedded below) west of uptown with the NCRR route (green).  

Is there too much freight traffic to do something like 20-30 minute or even hourly frequency during off-peak times using DMU carriages?  I know the blue line has been wildly successful at spurring denser development, and that the silver line could have a similar impact on west Charlotte, but could a higher frequency DMU service have a similar impact at a much lower cost, and potentially much sooner with support from NCRR?

Based on the WFU news, would it be better to reroute the silver line along the southern portion of 277 to hit the WFU campus and then terminate it at Gateway?  With commuter rail and DMU on the green NCRR routes?   Also, that would allow the silver line to have a couple midtown stops compared to the currently planned route along the 11th street and the northern portion of 277. 

 

[kermit]

19 hours ago, RugbyPike#11 said:

If commuter rail is feasible on the NCRR track, is the western portion of the Silver Live necessary?  Compare the routes of the silver line (gray on map embedded below) west of uptown with the NCRR route (green).  

Is there too much freight traffic to do something like 20-30 minute or even hourly frequency during off-peak times using DMU carriages?  I know the blue line has been wildly successful at spurring denser development, and that the silver line could have a similar impact on west Charlotte, but could a higher frequency DMU service have a similar impact at a much lower cost, and potentially much sooner with support from NCRR?

NS owns the tracks west of their Charlotte yard (basically 16th st), not the NCRR. The NS tracks are heavily used, and they just built their still shiny intermodal terminal at the airport, so they are in no mood to allow high frequency service on their tracks and no one can compel them to do so like on the NCRR tracks to the east. I think the best that we can expect from NS on those tracks is four round trips per day (in addition to the current Crescent service), and those trips would be expensive in terms of NS required improvements.

In terms of Silver Line reroute: If we had tons of cash we would (optimally) remove the Belk and build transit all the way around the 277 Loop (the Silver Line could keep its already identified route along 11th st). With the full loop around town the Silver line would run from Matthews into our "Loop" and return while the Purple Line (the Western Portion of the Silver) would run a similar pattern from Belmont to our "Loop" and then return to Belmont. (Hat tip to Chicago!).  This would create bonus circulator service around uptown, connect Wake Med to UNCC Uptown and nicely complement service on the Gold Line and Blue Lines through uptown.

Supercrude crayon:

• The purple and silver tracks on the loop are shared (despite the sad art).
• With the right interline connections this could provide for construction bypass tracks for all four lines when necessary
• Might solve the dilemma of how to connect the Silver to the Blue lines to access the South blvd maintenance facility (a tunnel from the removed 277 to Blue Line near Morehead / Carson?)
• Might improve reliability on both Silver and Purple (over and above running it as a single line)
• No part of uptown would be much more than 4 blocks from rail
• All it takes is money! (But it would be relatively cheap if built at the same time as 277 removal)

Edited April 1, 2021 by kermit

[RugbyPike#11]

12 minutes ago, kermit said:

NS owns the tracks west of their Charlotte yard (basically 16th st), not the NCRR. The NS tracks are heavily used, and they just built their still shiny intermodal terminal at the airport, so they are in no mood to allow high frequency service on their tracks and no one can compel them to do so like on the NCRR tracks to the east. I think the best that we can expect from NS on those tracks is four round trips per day (in addition to the current Crescent service), and those trips would be expensive.

Ah, thanks, sometimes "why don't we just..." has a clear answer.

[RugbyPike#11]

Some excerpts from the fact sheet for the American Jobs Plan (i.e. the Biden administration's infrastructure). It is light on specifics but calls for an expansion in transit funding.

Fix highways, rebuild bridges, upgrade ports, airports and transit systems. The President’s plan will modernize 20,000 miles of highways, roads, and main-streets. It will fix the ten most economically significant bridges in the country in need of reconstruction. It also will repair the worst 10,000 smaller bridges, providing critical linkages to communities. And, it will replace thousands of buses and rail cars, repair hundreds of stations, renew airports, and expand transit and rail into new communities.

BUILD WORLD-CLASS TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE: FIX HIGHWAYS, REBUILD BRIDGES, AND UPGRADE PORTS, AIRPORTS AND TRANSIT SYSTEMS
President Biden is calling on Congress to make a historic and overdue investment in our roads, bridges, rail, ports, airports, and transit systems. The President’s plan will ensure that these investments produce good-quality jobs with strong labor standards, prevailing wages, and a free and fair choice to join a union and bargain collectively. These investments will advance racial equity by providing better jobs and better transportation options to underserved communities. These investments also will extend opportunities to small businesses to participate in the design, construction, and manufacturing of new infrastructure and component parts. President Biden’s plan will deliver infrastructure Americans can trust, because it will be resilient to floods, fires, storms, and other threats, and not fragile in the face of these increasing risks. President Biden is calling on Congress to:

• Modernize public transit. Households that take public transportation to work have twice the commute time, and households of color are twice as likely to take public transportation. Our current transit infrastructure is inadequate – the Department of Transportation estimates a repair backlog of over $105 billion, representing more than 24,000 buses, 5,000 rail cars, 200 stations, and thousands of miles of track, signals, and power systems in need of replacement. This translates to service delays and disruptions that leave riders stranded and discourage transit use. President Biden is calling on Congress to invest $85 billion to modernize existing transit and help agencies expand their systems to meet rider demand. This investment will double federal funding for public transit, spend down the repair backlog, and bring bus, bus rapid transit, and rail service to communities and neighborhoods across the country. It will ultimately reduce traffic congestion for everyone.
• Invest in reliable passenger and freight rail service. The nation’s rail networks have the potential to offer safe, reliable, efficient, and climate-friendly alternatives for moving people and freight. However, unlike highways and transit, rail lacks a multi-year funding stream to address deferred maintenance, enhance existing corridors, and build new lines in high-potential locations. There are currently projects just waiting to be funded that will give millions more Americans reliable and fast inter-city train service. President Biden is calling on Congress to invest $80 billion to address Amtrak’s repair backlog; modernize the high traffic Northeast Corridor; improve existing corridors and connect new city pairs; and enhance grant and loan programs that support passenger and freight rail safety, efficiency, and electrification.

[kermit]

^ the doubling of transit funding comes off a pretty low base level so it is kinda underwhelming. The way that part of the bill is written, I would bet that it simply increases the budget for the existing New Starts program rather than creating any new program. My impression of policy at Pete’s DOT is that they will place increased emphasis on transit projects that stimulate broad land use change, meaning the projects getting funds will need to be packaged and presented with larger municipal changes (like the UDO, Gateway station or affordable housing initiatives).

The news is not all bad for transit, the Surface Transportation Act (the normal funding stream for DOT) will need to be reauthorized soon. There is big talk of large changes in transit funding there as well (perhaps more than a doubling) but that legislative process is murky.

My very early read on the proposal is it contains -lots- of road funding (hopefully all earmarked for repair), transit changes are kinda small relative to needs, but Amtrak is one of the big winners from all this (along with rural broadband which would be GREAT for NC). Unfortunately, as much as I like to ride trains, its hard to have a ton of confidence in Amtrak’s ability to smartly spend a bunch of cash. Fortunately much of the money Amtrak spends on track will end up improving the flow of freight (despite the beotching we will hear from them). NS is in desperate need of capacity increases between Charlotte and Atlanta and it looks like Amtrak will pay much of that cost.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by kermit

[elrodvt]

Amazing how republicans are against it before even reading it. How can we get anything done???

[southslider]

Just strange to not address Transportation Reauthorization as part of an INFRASTRUCTURE Act, but guess that's part of the process of passing laws mostly through budget reconciliation to avoid filibusters.

[kermit]

In the strange news of the day, the CBJ wrote an article that suggests there is a new study that might look at rerouting the Silver Line through uptown???

Quote

Business leaders are willing to pick up half the tab for an economic development study that would help determine how best to route a new light-rail line through uptown, Charlotte Mayor Vi Lyles said this week.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2021/04/09/changes-possible-to-silver-lines-uptown-route.html

I think this may be a case of me misinterpreting a strangely written article, although Julie Eiselt has been proposing some revisions to the route and plans due to census/election/NC GOP driven delays.

Quote

During the budget workshop this week, the mayor suggested the economic development study of the Silver Line’s center city route while council member Julie Eiselt endorsed a review of the entire line to further assess ridership potential. 

Eiselt went on to say that the city should take advantage of the extra time it’s been afforded to fine-tune the Silver Line. She was referring to delayed Census results that are all but certain to push city government elections to 2022 instead of this fall — a circumstance that has led the city to postpone its push for the sales tax referendum until next year, too.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Transportation of the future: first driverless shuttles on Federal property right here in NC in Kill Devil Hills

Nation's first self-driving shuttle on public lands hits the road at Wright Brothers National Memorial - OBX Today

[dubone]

On 4/10/2021 at 1:32 PM, kermit said:

In the strange news of the day, the CBJ wrote an article that suggests there is a new study that might look at rerouting the Silver Line through uptown???

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2021/04/09/changes-possible-to-silver-lines-uptown-route.html

I think this may be a case of me misinterpreting a strangely written article, although Julie Eiselt has been proposing some revisions to the route and plans due to census/election/NC GOP driven delays.

 

Charlotte Center City Partners has never believed Fourth Ward and Gateway are part of uptown.    Meanwhile, the current plan takes the line near the new stadium growth area, the new train station, the Music Factory/4th Ward area, and alongside 1st Ward which is desperate for redevelopment after decades of blank blocks of surface parking.    

 

"Uptown" means to put it where they are just about to finish a streetcar line. 

[KJHburg]

Back to the Future?  Look who had the only interurban electric rail line (commuter rail ) to Charlotte?    Belmont over in Gaston county.  Here is the station that is still standing. 

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile up in Raleigh their Bus Rapid Transit planning is moving along.  Check out the progress.   (New Bern Ave is up first out to Wake Medical Center to downtown)  

https://raleighnc.gov/events/wake-brt-virtual-open-house-0

 

[KJHburg]

Silver Line renderings Joe Bruno tweeted out this morning from MTC  (maybe that 37 story apartment tower by the silos could get built) 

[Blue_Devil]

17 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Silver Line renderings Joe Bruno tweeted out this morning from MTC  (maybe that 37 story apartment tower by the silos could get built) 

IF there was a silver line spot there, I am sure that 37 story tower would go up, and probably a few more with it. 

Also, Having the elevated platforms like that, while expensive, is simply awesome. It looks so cool in the middle of the city. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Blue_Devil

[CLT2014]

Given the church on Graham is going to be right at the doorstep of a light rail station, I wonder if they'd consider a partnership like the Methodist Church in SouthPark to build a new and modern sanctuary, while also incorporating other uses on the property like retail or apartments. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by CLT2014

[Temeteron]

37 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Silver Line renderings Joe Bruno tweeted out this morning from MTC  (maybe that 37 story apartment tower by the silos could get built) 

I wish they would name stations after neighborhoods for some. Why isn’t there a Plaza Midwood station or NoDa station?  4th ward or 3rd ward station?