CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

 

22 minutes ago, Temeteron said:

I wish they would name stations after neighborhoods for some. Why isn’t there a Plaza Midwood station or NoDa station?  4th ward or 3rd ward station? 

I think it's all gray area. Identity is in the eye of the beholder - just look at how often we're discussing the names and extents of neighborhoods, and how a little rebranding suddenly changes a name. 

Most major systems I can think of use adjacent street names or specific features for stations and not neighborhood names. Like, you won't find a Greenwich Village station - just a Christopher Street or Washington Square stations. 

I'm pretty sure 36th street station actually does have signage that says "NoDa" on the platform, it's just not the station's primary identity. 

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Silver Line renderings Joe Bruno tweeted out this morning from MTC  (maybe that 37 story apartment tower by the silos could get built) 

Very cool! I meant to log into the MTC meeting last night but was tied up with work. I was actually going to watch to see if they dropped a Gold Line opening date (right now they only say it will be open for full FY 2022, which starts July 1.) Didn't expect to see some cool silver line renderings!

[turbocraig]

Ding dong, the Circle K is gone.  Thank God.

[DownEast]

Are they still considering an at grade crossing with the blue line? Would be an utter travesty. 

[turbocraig]

4 minutes ago, DownEast said:

Are they still considering an at grade crossing with the blue line? Would be an utter travesty. 

This image would say No, unless I'm missing something...?

[DownEast]

Lol. Did not see the train at street level. Thx.

[Nick2]

Here's a couple more renderings I found on twitter:

 

[southslider]

12 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Silver Line renderings Joe Bruno tweeted 

So many complaining about the inconvenience of a people mover at the airport for occasional air travel, when this poorly designed connection between Silver and Blue Lines poses a much more regularly occurring inconvenience for daily commutes.

[tozmervo]

Are you expecting white glove clad staff to physically carry people from one train to the other? That's about a direct connection as they come

[Blue_Devil]

55 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Are you expecting white glove clad staff to physically carry people from one train to the other? That's about a direct connection as they come

No no no, I have been assured an at grade crossing would be the best solution. Then people wouldn't have to use the stairs! /s

[jthomas]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

Are you expecting white glove clad staff to physically carry people from one train to the other? That's about a direct connection as they come

It's not terrible - Google Earth shows 460 feet from the end of the Blue Line platform to the 11th Street bridge - but for a primary node in the system, it could be better. I'm glad to see that the elevated Silver Line station appears to be fully enclosed. To me, the ideal would be for the Blue Line station to be directly adjacent to the Silver Line, and for it to be fully enclosed as well, so that riders can make a transfer without being exposed to the elements. There appears to be enough room north of the Blue Line platform that a new station could be constructed in the manner I suggested, while leaving the current one open until the new one is complete. So, the proposed solution is not optimal, but at least it does not preclude the optimal solution from being built in the future.

[Madison Parkitect]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

Are you expecting white glove clad staff to physically carry people from one train to the other?

BRB gonna go make an app and become the next unicorn startup. It's like Uber but for people who won't use stairs.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

If the light rail stop at Graham does come to fruition, I would love if they could incorporate a pedestrian bridge or some kind of crossing over the railroad tracks/factory for easier access to the music factory/Avidxchange.  With concerts/clubs/bars over there, there needs to be a better solution than walking to the intersection and going down music factory blvd.

[dubone]

The walk between the station platforms is totally in the norm for transit transfers, however, they really need to add a covered pathway to do this to improve the idea that it is the same station . They seem to be planning a huge canopy over the station itself, so covering the transfer should be a modest add, but I think will really help. 

 

I'm extremely happy to see First Ward / Davidson Street getting a station.  It is absurd to have the train passing by the fairly dense neighborhood just to skip it.   

Graham street renderings are also really awesome, keeping and improving the green space at the day care and near the 277 offramp.   I'm beyond ecstatic to see them swallow up the land of the Circle K given it is a huge influence of blight on Graham Street.  Actually getting gas is far better at the new QuikTrip a couple blocks north.   Also having the elevated station and train should be a bit better for the area than a surface train.   

I really hope they add a 'rail trail' connection over the freight corridor to the cemetery green space and to help the path to the Music Factory.   

 

I really like that they include the rail connection to the blue line, although i'd love to see where/how that ties into the Silver Line with the tight spacing next to 277.     

[JRCLT]

For a transfer it would be about a 3 min walk (according to google maps) from the point of the rail trail where it would be likely for the stairs to open up to and to the blue line station (if you walk like you mean it maybe 2 min sometimes google is a slow walker) including the walk from the platform upon arrival to the stairs and walking down the stairs…that depends. I’d give it a 5-8 min walk perhaps (mostly speculation when it comes to the part before getting on the rail trail) it’s not ideal but it also isn’t horrible. I do agree about sheltering though… so perhaps moving the station closer to the silver line station and sheltering it as well would help to improve the transfer.

For those who would like a grade crossing…these intersections between trains can be dangerous especially if frequency is ever increased and train length expanded (very likely) on either line/both. It would take massive coordination. One other point is that the ideal line doesn’t have any grade crossing with either roads or other trains for that matter and minimal crossings with pedestrians which the silver line would the cut through the blue line rail trail. Lastly, it would be very difficult to bring the light rail down to grade not just 11th street grade but actually to the grade that the blue line is on that for one would be almost impossible unless there is an actual tunnel constructed to go beneath the exits of 277, which aren’t going anywhere any time soon and the last thing you would want at that crossing is the silver line to be slopped as it tries to meet the blue line tracks to then to rise above N College street especially in wet or icy conditions.

[dubone]

23 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

down to grade not just 11th street grade but actually to the grade that the blue line is on that for one would be almost impossible unless there is an actual tunnel constructed to go beneath the exits of 277, which aren’t going anywhere any time soon and the last thing you would want at that crossing is the silver line to be slopped as it tries to meet the blue line tracks to then to rise above N College street especially in wet or icy conditions.

 

Agreed, at-grade rail thru here would be horrible considering unlike where the blue line is at grade, this is the major connection area to the interstate and really would be bad to have all those added crossings.

They do seem to have the connector in a trench connecting somehow that isn't really clearly drawn.   but then taking a closer look, they do away with the Church street exit, so I suppose that part of the Uptown Loop study is done.  I'm glad they keep the Graham exit in the plan, as it serves a large population north of uptown like Music Factory and Camp NorthEnd area. 

[tozmervo]

Breathing room between the stations may also seem like just extra space right now, but during surge events or heavy transit usage, being able to spread people out as they move between platforms will be critical to reducing congestion. 

[JRCLT]

Agreed, at-grade rail thru here would be horrible considering unlike where the blue line is at grade, this is the major connection area to the interstate and really would be bad to have all those added crossings.
They do seem to have the connector in a trench connecting somehow that isn't really clearly drawn.   but then taking a closer look, they do away with the Church street exit, so I suppose that part of the Uptown Loop study is done.  I'm glad they keep the Graham exit in the plan, as it serves a large population north of uptown like Music Factory and Camp NorthEnd area. 
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2021_04/1100728633_ScreenShot2021-04-30at1_38_23PM.thumb.png.52d90913a5162e4f342b7b2302af2235.png

From the looks of it they are realigning 11th street in the rendering to put the station optimally closer to the blue line station by….interesting detail I didn’t notice. Seemed strange considering that parking deck is right up against 11th currently.

[MarcoPolo]

The goals and objectives for any successful transit plan must be nuanced as they seek to achieve balanced outcomes within a field of play that is not, (especially in the US, and specifically for development profiles such as Charlotte's).   I've tried to remain complimentary of the efforts put forth in routing the silver line through the Queen City's heart, and out to Belmont and Stallings, but as more plans and images are released the harder it becomes.   I want to preface my statements by acknowledging the complexities at hand, so as not to sound Quixotic in my disappointment and critique.  Importantly, this is not a slam to those working hard to navigate the many interests involved……the staff at CAT’s are talented, but I fear politics and expectations have hijacked the tools of proper planning leaving a whack-a-mole approach to address matters of inclusion and avoid matters of conflict.  

The current plan is shaping up to be an "epic" missed opportunity.    The selected corridor clearly expresses the assumptions and perceived challenges it seeks to avoid, and in this single minded pursuit of what is easiest the entire endeavor has become complicated, (very different meaning to the word "complex"), endangering both its short and long-term success.   It complicates transit network efficiencies.  It complicates transit rider use and relevancy.  It complicates efforts to strengthen the existing fabric of neighborhoods and shape their future growth.   It teases access to the Metropolis’ vital parts while bypassing most of them.  It is too comfortable with its relationship to the City’s highway and expressway infrastructure.   A billion dollars should deliver more than a solid one seat ride to Gateway Station, a new NFL Stadium and CLT's people mover while riding alongside Independence Expressway and its western namesake Wilkinson Blvd.  The biggest winner could end up being downtown Matthews if they choose the correct alignment there, and this does make me happy.   That community has struggled the most while still succeeding to maintain a viable heart since the early days when Charlotte's first wave of suburban growth inundated the town.  Additional places could win too, (wouldn't it be grand to include the bulk of downtown Charlotte, ie: Midtown, Southend etc on this list!) with slight re-alignments based on a shift in thinking and greater tolerance for some controversy.  

The silver line is too important to fall back on the City’s penchant for “expediency”.   Creative solutions exist and there are people not adverse to complexity if the results leverage great outcomes.  Oddly enough it could be a shift in the politics at the federal level that may enable new and compelling ideas locally.    My two cents.  

[elrodvt]

I think I could reply with all emoticon other than confused.

[DownEast]

No one wants an at grade crossing. 

[kermit]

I certainly hope CATS is well prepared to discuss carbon costs in the context of the silver line. Budgets really need to include the benefits of carbon savings alongside the incremental tax revenue increases in station areas.

In terms of other modes:  scooter share, gezzz.

and the transit plan really needs to be even more tightly bundled with the UDO. The info below is from a May 2021 paper in Energy Policy.

Quote

• Doubling population-weighted density is associated with a 48% reduction in CO₂emissions from household travel.
• Doubling population-weighted density is associated with a 35% reduction in CO₂emissions from residential energy use.
• Doubling per capita transit subsidy is associated with a 46% lower VMT and 18% reduction in transportation CO₂ emissions.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0301421514000299

Edited May 1, 2021 by kermit

[dubone]

20 hours ago, MarcoPolo said:

 

 It teases access to the Metropolis’ vital parts while bypassing most of them.  It is too comfortable with its relationship to the City’s highway and expressway infrastructure.   A billion dollars should deliver more than a solid one seat ride to Gateway Station, a new NFL Stadium and CLT's people mover while riding alongside Independence Expressway and its western namesake Wilkinson Blvd.  

To defend the alignment chosen through uptown is that it goes through huge areas that are ready for redevelopment, investment and growth.    

• The Pipe & Foundry and 3rd Ward Warehouse districts are eyed for the type of growth that needs transit, but is currently 10-15 blocks of emptiness.   
• Morehead Station is also in the 1/2 mile radius of the fast growing northern Wilmore / Gold District.  
• Gateway Station does not exist yet, and it needs as much support and connectivity to both be useful as a station, but also to trigger the growth and redevelopment of the 7 blocks in the master plan.  Without the private money, the station doesn't exist.      Gateway Station is also with the 1/2 mile radius of Trade and Tryon, so while a Gold Line transfer is easy here, it is also an easy 5 block/ 8 min walk to Trade and Tryon. 
• The recent growth around Bearden in 3rd Ward is density well worthy of a transit line closer to it.  
• 4th Ward along Graham Street is  underdeveloped 1980s low rise from the first wave of uptown residential 'revitalization' that is slowly turning to blight.  Yet even as it is, is still the densest urban neighborhood population that is open to using transit, but is quite far from the Blue Line. 
• Music Factory, North End, and Optimist Park are all in the 1/2 mile radius of this corridor and have major growth potential and momentum. 
• Hal Marshal center and other "North Tryon" Parcels have been discussed for literally all of the decades that I have lived in Charlotte, yet they remain 4-5 blocks of developable land.  
• Levineland is a catastrophic scar on uptown's urban fabric with over 6 blocks of undeveloped land, and surely will eventually need to be developed, even though it sure has had plenty of infrastructure stimulus already.  
• Outside of uptown, the corridor will support the growth of Airport North, the Old Coliseum land, and the desperately blighted Independence corridor that needs to be redeveloped in the coming decades. 

 

With all of these benefits, it then is striking that along the railroad and 277 corridors in uptown are NCDOT land that are already suited for the noise and linear nature of the rail line and help serve a population and growth land that is not well served yet by the Blue or Gold lines.   

I could have imagined a world where they dedicated Trade and Elizabeth Street to transit and pedestrians and combined the Gold Line with the Silver Line from Gateway to Independence.   But this orientation gives the city a new investment that combined with the other lines helps support and grow the urban fabric.  Hopefully. 

1 hour ago, kermit said:

 

In terms of other modes:  scooter share, gezzz.

 

Very interesting find!     The scooters have a halo of seeming like electric transit, but when you see the massive trucks driving around at night to collect them all, I swear they have their mufflers sawn off and rolling coal all the way back to make that sweet charging money. 

[elrodvt]

8 hours ago, kermit said:

I certainly hope CATS is well prepared to discuss carbon costs in the context of the silver line. Budgets really need to include the benefits of carbon savings alongside the incremental tax revenue increases in station areas.

In terms of other modes:  scooter share, gezzz.

and the transit plan really needs to be even more tightly bundled with the UDO. The info below is from a May 2021 paper in Energy Policy.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0301421514000299

Now wait a minute! I'm pretty sure a local weatherman in Texas, along with a truly genius GOP senator from OK bringing a large snowball into chambers, prove to the GOP writ large that warming isn't actually occurring?  {Edit; thus weakening any perceived benefit with reducing CO2 ”pollution”}

On a selfish note I'll be really thrilled if any e-bike incentives are retroactive to start of '21.

Edited May 2, 2021 by elrodvt

[kermit]

On 4/30/2021 at 4:17 PM, MarcoPolo said:

The current plan is shaping up to be an "epic" missed opportunity.    The selected corridor clearly expresses the assumptions and perceived challenges it seeks to avoid, and in this single minded pursuit of what is easiest the entire endeavor has become complicated, (very different meaning to the word "complex"), endangering both its short and long-term success.   It complicates transit network efficiencies.  It complicates transit rider use and relevancy.  It complicates efforts to strengthen the existing fabric of neighborhoods and shape their future growth.   It teases access to the Metropolis’ vital parts while bypassing most of them.  It is too comfortable with its relationship to the City’s highway and expressway infrastructure.   A billion dollars should deliver more than a solid one seat ride to Gateway Station, a new NFL Stadium and CLT's people mover while riding alongside Independence Expressway and its western namesake Wilkinson Blvd.  The biggest winner could end up being downtown Matthews if they choose the correct alignment there, and this does make me happy.   That community has struggled the most while still succeeding to maintain a viable heart since the early days when Charlotte's first wave of suburban growth inundated the town.  Additional places could win too, (wouldn't it be grand to include the bulk of downtown Charlotte, ie: Midtown, Southend etc on this list!) with slight re-alignments based on a shift in thinking and greater tolerance for some controversy.  

The silver line is too important to fall back on the City’s penchant for “expediency”.   Creative solutions exist and there are people not adverse to complexity if the results leverage great outcomes.  Oddly enough it could be a shift in the politics at the federal level that may enable new and compelling ideas locally.    My two cents.  

 

21 hours ago, dubone said:

To defend the alignment chosen through uptown is that it goes through huge areas that are ready for redevelopment, investment and growth.    

• The Pipe & Foundry and 3rd Ward Warehouse districts are eyed for the type of growth that needs transit, but is currently 10-15 blocks of emptiness.   
• Morehead Station is also in the 1/2 mile radius of the fast growing northern Wilmore / Gold District.  
• Gateway Station does not exist yet, and it needs as much support and connectivity to both be useful as a station, but also to trigger the growth and redevelopment of the 7 blocks in the master plan.  Without the private money, the station doesn't exist.      Gateway Station is also with the 1/2 mile radius of Trade and Tryon, so while a Gold Line transfer is easy here, it is also an easy 5 block/ 8 min walk to Trade and Tryon. 
• The recent growth around Bearden in 3rd Ward is density well worthy of a transit line closer to it.  
• 4th Ward along Graham Street is  underdeveloped 1980s low rise from the first wave of uptown residential 'revitalization' that is slowly turning to blight.  Yet even as it is, is still the densest urban neighborhood population that is open to using transit, but is quite far from the Blue Line. 
• Music Factory, North End, and Optimist Park are all in the 1/2 mile radius of this corridor and have major growth potential and momentum. 
• Hal Marshal center and other "North Tryon" Parcels have been discussed for literally all of the decades that I have lived in Charlotte, yet they remain 4-5 blocks of developable land.  
• Levineland is a catastrophic scar on uptown's urban fabric with over 6 blocks of undeveloped land, and surely will eventually need to be developed, even though it sure has had plenty of infrastructure stimulus already.  
• Outside of uptown, the corridor will support the growth of Airport North, the Old Coliseum land, and the desperately blighted Independence corridor that needs to be redeveloped in the coming decades. 

With all of these benefits, it then is striking that along the railroad and 277 corridors in uptown are NCDOT land that are already suited for the noise and linear nature of the rail line and help serve a population and growth land that is not well served yet by the Blue or Gold lines.   

I could have imagined a world where they dedicated Trade and Elizabeth Street to transit and pedestrians and combined the Gold Line with the Silver Line from Gateway to Independence.   But this orientation gives the city a new investment that combined with the other lines helps support and grow the urban fabric.  Hopefully.

An old fried of mine would refer to the current Silver Line route through uptown as a 'travesty of a mockery of a sham." It is a route that pleases no one outside of CATS planners seeking to minimize costs. It does remarkably little to help East or West side residents get to Uptown jobs unless those jobs are in Gateway (two seat rides are not going to happen at the frequencies that CATS will likely run). While dubone is right that the Silver line will trigger development along the Brookshire (where development is needed), it will do nothing for the other portion of Uptown in great need of improvement, the Second Ward. And it does nearly nothing to improve mobility in Uptown.

If CATS wanted to build a decent transportation system, they would have either closed Trade and Elizabeth and run tracks at grade or bitten the bullet and tunneled the Silver under Trade Street. Sure a tunnel would be expensive, but this is a 100 year investment and the benefits of being a city seen as 'efficient and serious' to potential workers are hugely underestimated.   But its clear that, following the success of Southend (which would have happened with or without the Blue Line), CATS is much more interested in catalyzing high-end RE development than facilitating mobility. It is equally clear that CATS is too nervous to propose anything transformational if it happens to cost marginally more than the cheapest possible option or slightly inconvenience car drivers.

Having said that, dubone has painted a picture that partially convinces me that the 11th street Silver line route will generate some benefits worth holding on to. Given that I'll reiterate an earlier half serious suggestion. Lets split the Silver Line into two parts: Matthews/Stallings to Uptown and Belmot to Uptown. When both lines arrive in Uptown the run on a loop track following the 11th street route and then goes the remainder of the way uptown following the Belk. (if the city is too beholden to car drivers to remove the Belk then remove a lane or two and realign more exit ramps to find the space). This would allow riders from either end of the East-West Lines to get a one seat ride to the entire perimeter of Uptown. It also provides excellent service to the new medical school, a soon to be redeveloped stadium site and the deepest recesses of the Second Ward. If CATS decided to participate in the 21st century they could provide screens in the vehicles letting riders know how long the wait was to transfer to a train going the other direction on the loop or to the Blue / Gold Line to speed those trips. This loop would also have the benefit of making the whole perimeter of Uptown much more accessible. a change that would help to speed residential development there -- something that we have recently seen is sorely needed to both diversify its activity and increase the supply of housing.

I know this is just a fantasy, but it really does solve a ton of operational problems and it could be accomplished at very reasonable cost if the land were taken from the bloated Belk. Even more importantly, it would turn a toy for real estate developers in Northend into a very useful and futureproofed transportation system that would enable densification in some remarkably under utilized parts of Charlotte's core.

Forgive the super crude drawing. No part of uptown is more than four blocks from a transit line. Any future rail lines can connect to the loop rather than needing a new ROW into town (e.g. Seversville / Freedom, Southpark, or Graham street future rail). Midtown and Morehead street now have excellent access as does the stadium site. (Green and Orange run on the same tracks, I just can't draw using Paint)

 

I might even suggest that loop-bound trains alternate directions of travel on the loop. In other words a Matthews boarding rider could choose a Uptown via Stonewall train, or they could wait for the next train which would be Uptown via 11th. Coordinated transfers to trains going the other direction on the loop would prevent this from being a big pita for riders when the schedule gets disrupted.

Edited May 2, 2021 by kermit

[JRCLT]

If CATS decided to participate in the 21st century they could provide screens in the vehicles letting riders know how long the wait was to transfer to a train going the other direction on the loop or to the Blue / Gold Line to speed those trips. This loop would also have the benefit of making the whole perimeter of Uptown much more accessible. a change that would help to speed residential development there -- something that we have recently seen is sorely needed to both diversify its activity and increase the supply of housing.
I know this is just a fantasy, but it really does solve a ton of operational problems and it could be accomplished at very reasonable cost if the land were taken from the bloated Belk. Even more importantly, it would turn a toy for real estate developers in Northend into a very useful and futureproofed transportation system that would enable densification in some remarkably under utilized parts of Charlotte's core.
Forgive the super crude drawing. No part of uptown is more than four blocks from a transit line. Any future rail lines can connect to the loop rather than needing a new ROW into town (looking at Seviersville trolly). Midtown and Morehead street now have excellent access as does the stadium site. (Green and Orange run on the same tracks, I just can't draw using Paint)
 
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2021_05/533834265_Uptownloop.thumb.png.52a0ed9da9506685d2c32be7f4f534be.png

Wow I really like that idea and I don’t know why I hadn’t crossed my mind before…like this would extend transit to midtown and I saw someone point out in Twitter that the medical school would be par from transit but this would solve those issues. Personally would gladly accept this if it were a proposal. It solves many issues with the silver line when it comes to mobility across center city.