CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

On 4/30/2021 at 7:43 PM, DownEast said:

No one wants an at grade crossing. 

I don't either, but many want a better alignment through Uptown.

Edited May 2, 2021 by southslider

[ajfunder]

Would escalators be feasible at the transfer station? Seems like an easy fix on the extra step problem.

[Matthew.Brendan]

8 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Would escalators be feasible at the transfer station? Seems like an easy fix on the extra step problem.

I'm almost certain they would be required by ADA law.

[tozmervo]

9 hours ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

I'm almost certain they would be required by ADA law.

Escalators can't be used for wheelchairs. That's why we have elevators at above grade Blue Line stations

[southslider]

Elevators may work if the stations were stacked at 11th, but Blue Line station would stay at 9th. So what then, moving sidewalks? As inconvenient as Gold Line transfers are at CTC, CATS just can't design an easy-to-use system.

[turbocraig]

Just googling Silver Line pics and found these renderings I hadn't seen before.  277 alignment in 1W from the City's website and then this link to STV, the firm doing the planning and design work that shows it crossing over Independence and I'm not sure where exactly it snakes off to behind Ovens.  Apologies if these are old news - I haven't been reading this thread religiously.

https://www.stvinc.com/project/lynx-silver-line-design-engineering-services

 

[MarcoPolo]

The rendering above perfectly depicts the reality to come.   A picture can speak a thousand words, and in the case of the above, none are inspiring.   Pay close attention to this segment of the corridor’s context, as you contemplate the following:  if a checklist for successful light rail were attached the “achieved” column would show almost no items marked.  I’ll skip ahead here to the argument made be some that development opportunities along this proposed routing are enough to overcome other shortcomings.  Yes, development incentivization is one of many items on any successful light rail checklist, however, not all development is created equal.  Bear with me here.  

The Brookshire/277 expressway (as are all expressways) is equivalent to a zipper, unzipped.  It separates urban (read walking) fabric, depressing land values directly adjacent, promoting auto-centric support development/infrastructure, and increasing noise and pollution to properties along it.  Light rail lines (above and below grade), well designed streets and boulevards, pedestrian engaged ground floor buildings, and civic spaces are equivalent to zippers being zipped.  They unite urban fabric, generate higher land values in direct adjacency, reduce noise and air pollution, and foster people centric development/infrastructure.    

Pardon my need for another skip ahead….  The 50-year build-out of the interstate/highway system that passes through Charlotte consists of 1-85 (not going anywhere), I-77, (not going anywhere), and Highway 74, (not going anywhere and being redeveloped into an expressway from sea to mountains).   Three links branch between these and I will list them in order of least necessary to most necessary:

1-    John Belk Freeway, 

2-    Brookshire north of I-77 and 

3-    the Brookshire south of I-77

Two of the three are pertinent to the Silver Line and it has hugged, with reckless abandon number 3, the most critical to the expressway system.  The Brookshire already functions as a through-put artery as its AADT figures show.  The other two do not.  They are glorified “arms” reaching toward employment nodes in and around downtown.  Such expressways are excellent candidates for removal/repurposing since their absence in no way impede access/traffic flows, either locally, or regionally.   These are the “freeways without futures” you may have read about, built as a justification to improve traffic, but in reality deployed for more nefarious reasons, where existing traffic demand is absorbed (often eliminated) by surrounding networks when taken off line, or redesigned.  Hold this thought.  

Back to the Silver Line’s current embrace of the Brookshire.  Topography dictates that in some distant future a portion of its southern section could be capped to re-zip the Belmont and Villa Heights neighborhoods with First Ward and downtown (aspirational hope of mine), but the bulk of the Brookshire in the rendering will remain and most likely “improved” to take on the traffic volumes it will be asked to handle.   There is no zipping here, and except for the aforementioned example, very little pedestrian/neighborhood redevelopment potential as was the case for South End when the Blue line was built.  The two places are diametrically opposed examples of context and outcomes.  Examples of what the Brookshire will eventually look like abound throughout the US, none of which are successful, pedestrian oriented, light rail corridors.   What would a routing with a  “win” in mind look like?  

A win would be a concerted effort to work out phasing, funding, partnerships, grants, tax abatement policies, and bond drives to look at either:

1-    putting the light rail above and below grade along Trade St (yes indeed, a complex and expensive decision requiring trade offs along other segments of the line), but with enormously positive checklist results, or, my favorite

2-    replacing the John Belk with a Boulevard from just beyond the current interchange with the Brookshire, to just before the interchange with I-77 and the Silver Line routed along it, at grade along its southern leg and below along the northern leg.  The topography works exceptionally well for both, allowing for “underground” segments to be built at current grades and covered by boulevard decking.  The acreage of new land for development that would spontaneously appear would run in the tens of millions of dollars.   Critically, the junction of the Blue and Silver lines would be grade separated, Blue at grade, and Silver below, functioning just like the robust transit systems do in larger cities….yes, with escalators, elevators, and steps.  Architecturally, given grade differences, Stonewall Station/Convention Center, and the South end side of a new boulevard, the results could truly be “world class”.  

It should be obvious to all on this forum how either of these re-alignments would do a superior job stitching together every major employment, entertainment, and transportation node in the central city region to the Charlotte metropolitan region.  The latter would create an inspiring opportunity to establish a Gateway Station – Stadium anchored entertainment and business corridor, akin to the current relationship found between the World Financial Center, the Oculus/Path Station, and Fulton St Station in lower Manhattan.  

Such alignments spur transformative development opportunities.  Such alignments encourage neighborhood building.  Such alignments connect people and jobs.  Such alignments improve air quality and noise reduction.  Such alignments require thought and cooperation, not expediency and conflict avoidance.  

[orulz]

2- replacing the John Belk with a Boulevard from just beyond the current interchange with the Brookshire, to just before the interchange with I-77 and the Silver Line routed along it, at grade along its southern leg and below along the northern leg.

The topography works exceptionally well for both, allowing for “underground” segments to be built at current grades and covered by boulevard decking.  The acreage of new land for development that would spontaneously appear would run in the tens of millions of dollars.   Critically, the junction of the Blue and Silver lines would be grade separated, Blue at grade, and Silver below, functioning just like the robust transit systems do in larger cities….yes, with escalators, elevators, and steps.

Architecturally, given grade differences, Stonewall Station/Convention Center, and the South end side of a new boulevard, the results could truly be “world class”.

Cheaper alternative: further reconfiguration of the Belk's interchanges, freeing up one of the three to four "channels" currently used for car traffic, to use as a light rail line instead.

If you're going to go to the expense of decking over the Belk, why not do it with a park instead of a boulevard?

I still like the Trade Street tunnel option better, though. Tunnels are actually pretty cheap; it's stations that are the budget busters. So, simplify it by having only one or two underground stations. The CATS transportation center obviously needs an underground station. Gateway might, but it might also be possible to curve south and get it above ground along the currently planned Silver Line alignment. The streetcar (which should have dedicated lanes, FFS, I mean come on!) can handle local circulation in the corridor.

Sent from my SM-S515DL using Tapatalk

[southslider]

CATS is designing a major transfer point to be a longer walk than even the current walk along the Blue Line between existing stations at 3rd St/Convention Center and Trade St/Arena/CTC.

[MarcoPolo]

Appreciate the thoughts/feedback Orulz     

To be clear I am suggesting completely removing the JBF.   It does not need to exist in its present form to provide the function it serves.  Doing so would properly zip together Southend, Dilworth/Kenilworth, CPCC/Midtown and the two Hospitals (new medical school included) with Center City Charlotte.    Consider that this unencumbered footprint would be equivalent in area to Manhattan south of Central Park to  Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall.  And no...i'm not suggesting Manhattan densities will sprout in Charlotte.   I'm pointing out the amount of walkable urbanism., ie: neighborhoods, parks, employment districts, entertainment and shopping streets, which could be realized in the decades to come as these most central and densest parts of Charlotte leverage off each other,  and their growing transit anchored access to the region.  

Addressing the park capped idea, a cap is the most costly part of development.  Handing over the real estate created above and/or adjacent to non-taxable revenue generating purposes, when there are multiple opportunities to create park space on less expensive properties, would not be practical here.   This is the reason examples of  "Park" capped freeways most always span very, very short distances..... Seattle (excluding topo induced tunneling), Dallas etc.   The proposal here is to zip up a long, self-inflicted scar across the Queen's face with high intensity, human habitat oriented, plastic surgery.   It is the only reason I tend to lean more in favor of this option than the Trade St. option.   But, believe me,  I would be over the moon if either were even a topic of discussion at this point  

[dubone]

Removal of 277 is not under the control of CATS and is not really on topic for this.    It has been reviewed by NCDOT and it is remaining, and getting fewer interchanges.    I like the dreamscaping, but if we think Hawthorne Bridge closure embittered general population to Gold Line, removing 277 and trying to absorb commuter traffic on the Dilworth and uptown grids will be despised.  

 

 

2nd Ward has seen huge growth from the Blue Line and the last business cycle.  All that is needed to continue that growth is for the land to not be in possession of the county/city/schools.  Same obviously for Hal Marshall, but North Tryon has had major loss of momentum, while development has gone almost entirely to 3rd and 2nd Wards (and Southend).    

There are far more open blocks in 3rd, 4th and 1st Ward.  We know the blocker for first ward, but taking the Silver line around Belk Freeway is clearly not needed for the growth of Wilmore, Dilworth or even 2nd Ward.      

[kermit]

54 minutes ago, dubone said:

Removal of 277 is not under the control of CATS and is not really on topic for this.    It has been reviewed by NCDOT and it is remaining, and getting fewer interchanges.   

Booooo. Did NCDOT publish a report? When did they do this analysis, back when they streamlined the South blvd interchange?

Related:

[CLT2014]

42 minutes ago, kermit said:

Related:

Kind of interesting that none of the cities in the sprawling Southeast (including Charlotte) ranked in the top 25 worst for pollution in any of the categories but places like Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Denver, DC, Chicago, NYC, et. all ranked among the worst in a category: https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/most-polluted-cities

Edited May 3, 2021 by CLT2014

[MarcoPolo]

Large scale projects impacting municipalities at the level transit system do should never be designated the sole purview of any one organization/agency.....silo thinking that dilutes messaging and responsibility.   A major shortcoming of this Transit Planning process.   The interconnections between all forms of rail, and auto, cycling, and walking, for example, are densely tethered, and these threads reach out to weave the City's social, environmental, and economic spheres into a tightly dependent tapestry.   Impossible to pull on one thread without tugging an many others.   A robust, joint effort is sorely needed.   History shows the most fruitful outcomes result from such endeavors.    Cross-agency cooperation can provide stronger counter arguments when the opposition, you rightly point out dubone, inevitably occurs, ( in addition to opening access to broader pots of federal monies).

And, remember, "growth" is not the only checklist item to address when properly planning light rail transit systems.   Access to jobs and relevancy to the user base also carry weight.  Development can, and usually is, a byproduct to anticipate for financing purposes on the private and public  ledgers.   The Silver Line's true development potential in terms of cost vs new development and revenue is much stronger along the corridors beyond Uptown, on the way to Belmont and Stallings.  Here too, the current alignments are hit and miss, falling generally short of the true potential possible.  

But don't get me started.  I have an overseas flight to hop on.  I've enjoyed the discussion and everyone's responses.  Carry on and keep thinking/questioning    

[southslider]

CATS must be hoping for a better federal funding formula for Silver Line, since a local tax increase is just so toxic now. Granted, it hasn't helped that CATS kept overpromising on Red Line.

Edited May 7, 2021 by southslider

[rancenc]

Could the CASSI line be the next big thing in Charlotte's mass transit future?????

 

[tozmervo]

CATS is making all services free during the pipeline shut down.

Free Rides (charlottenc.gov)

Beginning today, CATS is announcing fare-free transit for all community members during the temporary shutdown of the Colonial Pipeline to assist citizens with access to essential workplaces.  An announcement will be made prior to resuming fare collection.

CATS is actively monitoring fuel availability and supply. The organization is in close coordination with Charlotte-Mecklenburg Emergency Management.

 

[tozmervo]

There are a couple of upcoming ULI seminars based on the Silver Line. Click through to register.

May 20: ULI Charlotte: City of Charlotte's TOD Symposium Series - Setting the Stage for TOD in Small and Big Cities | ULI Charlotte

May 27: ULI Charlotte: City of Charlotte's TOD Symposium Series - Equitable TOD: Building Equity as Part of Transit & TOD | ULI Charlotte

These are moderated by CATS and Charlotte planners, respectively. 

[tozmervo]

As part of the "Envision My Ride" bus improvement program, there's a community meeting next May 20. They are collecting feedback on passenger values, preferences, needs, and barriers to riding the bus. 

The ultimate goal of the bus priority study is creating a plan to improve individual routes through infrastructure, mobility connections, & operations and figure the best budget CATS's capital money. 

Envision My Ride: Bus Priority Study (arcgis.com)

[kermit]

a couple of interesting snippets from Steve Harrison's interview of Ron Tober (the first head of CATS) that appeared in the Ledger's new Transit Substak

Quote

Q. Going back in the past, was it a failure of the city to negotiate the deal with Norfolk-Southern for an intermodal yard at the airport and not secure the rights to the freight line to build the Red Line?

I couldn’t agree more. I tried to talk to (former aviation director) Jerry Orr and he didn’t want anything to do with me. I tried to talk to the mayor and the city manager’s office, and I couldn’t get anything done. They wanted that intermodal terminal at the airport.

Quote

Q. Why has Taiwo taken the lead on the mobility plan instead of CATS chief executive John Lewis?

Good question. … (Lewis) needs to. And he hasn’t.

Tober also generally pisses on the Silver Line route and a lack of focus in the big bang.

[Hushpuppy321]

Was looking at this Commuter Rail preliminary study for the Triangle Area this morning (and initially when posted back in January).  Does the Charlotte Metro have any focus group\Transportation Authority doing any similar feasibility studies for Commuter\Regional Rail for this area or is all the focus\oxygen in the room being used for Lightrail Planning?

http://goforwardnc.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/PRES_GTCR-Prelim-Results-191218_DRAFT_v5.1-for-web.pdf

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Was looking at this Commuter Rail preliminary study for the Triangle Area this morning (and initially when posted back in January).  Does the Charlotte Metro have any focus group\Transportation Authority doing any similar feasibility studies for Commuter\Regional Rail for this area or is all the focus\oxygen in the room being used for Lightrail Planning?

http://goforwardnc.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/PRES_GTCR-Prelim-Results-191218_DRAFT_v5.1-for-web.pdf

Yes we do, but it is not as advanced -- the Triangle has transit sales tax money to support a buildout of commuter rail, we do not. The Connect Beyond program run by the local COG is currently engaged in public outreach and planning for a regional commuter network. It does not appear that they have had any conversations with NS and CSX yet and they are certainly taking their time with it all. The Triangle has a big advantage that all of their potential commuter rail routes are (or will be soon) owned by the state, just one of ours (to Salisbury/Spencer) is. I am also not optimistic that the COG has enough pull with the state or individual county governments to make any of this happen. In the absence of megafunding from the state I doubt surrounding counties will be excited to pay for any of this either.

https://www.connect-beyond.com/

Edited May 26, 2021 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

5 hours ago, kermit said:

Yes we do, but it is not as advanced -- the Triangle has transit sales tax money to support a buildout of commuter rail, we do not. The Connect Beyond program run by the local COG is currently engaged in public outreach and planning for a regional commuter network. It does not appear that they have had any conversations with NS and CSX yet and they are certainly taking their time with it all. The Triangle has a big advantage that all of their potential commuter rail routes are (or will be soon) owned by the state, just one of ours (to Salisbury/Spencer) is. I am also not optimistic that the COG has enough pull with the state or individual county governments to make any of this happen. In the absence of megafunding from the state I doubt surrounding counties will be excited to pay for any of this either.

https://www.connect-beyond.com/

Thanks for the Info but I don't for the life of me understand why this (Commuter\Regional Rail) isn't being considered as part of the 'Big Bang'?  We need the Silverline but also several Commuter\Regional Lines to be the backbone of the Metro Area.  If the Big-Bang Tax Referendum passes next year (Big If) then I can't see whoever is looking at Commuter Rail making another big ask.  I just wish this was something NCDOT made a priority for it's Two (or Three) Largest Metro Areas as far as funding & planning goes.  We're screwed I'm afraid....

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Thanks for the Info but I don't for the life of me understand why this (Commuter\Regional Rail) isn't being considered as part of the 'Big Bang'?  We need the Silverline but also several Commuter\Regional Lines to be the backbone of the Metro Area.  If the Big-Bang Tax Referendum passes next year (Big If) then I can't see whoever is looking at Commuter Rail making another big ask.  I just wish this was something NCDOT made a priority for it's Two (or Three) Largest Metro Areas as far as funding & planning goes.  We're screwed I'm afraid....

The Big Bang is planned as transit (mostly) within Mecklenburg County only. Given the geographic constraints it makes sense that the funding comes from taxes levied within Charlotte. 

Commuter rail is going to do very little to improve mobility -within- Mecklenburg county. It will likely be designed to move people from outlying counties into Uptown. Given the limited number of stops commuter rail will have in Mecklenburg (with the exception of the Red Line and a few other stops which will duplicate the Blue and Silver lines) it will mostly need to be paid for by the surrounding counties.   Until those counties find a way to pay for commuter rail (and bus), commuter rail ain’t gonna happen. 

The state (and South Carolina) will need to step up to make Charlotte commuter rail a reality (other than the Red Line). CATS has appropriately decided that they do not need to be involved at this point in the process.

Edited May 27, 2021 by kermit

[kermit]

While its a million miles from ratification, the House Transport Bill out this morning would change the max federal contribution to transit capital costs to 80% (up from 50% which finally puts transit on equal footing with highways). This is the first time in my memory that such a large federal cost shift for transit has been proposed. If this cost share proposal is ever passed it would certainly have major implications for big bang funding.

Edited June 4, 2021 by kermit