CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

Folks shouldn't underestimate the gargantuan lift it took for the blue line to get built. There are a million reasons that project should have never been built, but Charlotte managed to overcome them all. If money is the only challenge, we're doing pretty good already. 

[tozmervo]

new website alert
www.catssilverline.com

Upcoming station area planning events

[XRZ.ME]

On July 9, 2021, the Tier 1 Final Environmental Impact Statement and Record of Decision (FEIS/ROD) for the Tier 1 Atlanta to Charlotte Passenger Rail Corridor Investment Plan (PRCIP) was published in the Environmental Protection Agency Federal Register. The Federal Railroad Administration and the Georgia DOT worked together with stakeholders in North Carolina and South Carolina to reach this important milestone in the Tier 1 EIS process. In this Tier 1 FEIS/ROD, FRA has identified and selected the Greenfield Corridor Alternative as the Preferred Corridor Alternative based on analysis presented in the Tier 1 DEIS, and input received from the public, stakeholders, agencies during the public meetings and the comment period. 

Following the publication of this Tier 1 FEIS/ROD, the FRA will hold a 30-day waiting period to allow the public, stakeholders, Native American Tribes, coordinating agencies and other interested parties the opportunity to review and provide input on the Preferred Corridor Alternative and the contents of the Tier 1 FEIS/ROD. This will not be a formal review and comment period, and the FRA and GDOT will not respond to individual comments as was required for the Tier 1 DEIS. However, these comments will be considered for any subsequent phases of the Project.

 

http://www.dot.ga.gov/IS/Rail/AtlantatoCharlotte

[southslider]

On 6/30/2021 at 11:15 PM, tozmervo said:

 If money is the only challenge, we're doing pretty good already. 

Political will remains a challenge to having enough money, especially if North Meck will be asked to raise more taxes for broken promises.

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile up in Raleigh planning starting for around the Bus Rapid Transit stations along New Bern Ave 

I wish Charlotte would include a lot more BRT in our transit plans as it is much cheaper and can be built much quicker and it can work just as effectively.  Imagine down Central to Albemarle out much beyond the Eastland site basically to Novant Mint Hill.  Or up north or northwest to Riverbend where Corning is based.  

BRT Stations are coming to New Bern Avenue - YouTube

[kermit]

29 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

… and it can work just as effectively. 

Only if it runs in dedicated lanes. Roughly 1/3 of the New Bern ave BRT will run in mixed traffic.

[KJHburg]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

Only if it runs in dedicated lanes. Roughly 1/3 of the New Bern ave BRT will run in mixed traffic.

True but  the streetcar which costs much more per mile  travels in mixed traffic 100% of the time.  I still contend BRT needs to be done more in Charlotte even Atlanta is using it on some of their new routes.  It would reach more places, be built out quicker and overall is much more affordable.  Very high concentrations of apartments are on Albemarle road and there is absolutely no transit plans for that area other than current bus service. 

Atlanta Transit Agency Moves Ahead With Bus Rapid Transit | Georgia News | US News

[southslider]

On 7/14/2021 at 7:51 AM, KJHburg said:

I still contend BRT needs to be done more in Charlotte...

And just running Express buses on the toll lanes doesn't count as BRT.

Edited July 18, 2021 by southslider

[tozmervo]

I think of the MetroRapid service as "BRT Lite." A full BRT would more or less eliminate busses having to run in mixed traffic at all. So for example, the Northcross park and ride might have a direct bus-only ramp to the express lanes so the bus never even had to deal with exit 25 and Sam Furr road. Stops would also have level boarding to eliminate the steps up into a bus. So it would have the priority and dedicated space of a train line, it just happens to be on rubber wheels.

[KJHburg]

I am talking about BRT just like Raleigh proposed system with dedicated stops, fare paying before boarding, raised platforms at stations to get into bus with no steps etc. 

Yes it can mix with traffic sometimes but overall it can be on dedicated lanes   New Bern Ave is their first line.   The only way using the toll express lanes could be called BRT if they had dedicated stations like these in Raleigh.  

Wake Bus Rapid Transit: New Bern Avenue Corridor – Raleigh, North Carolina - YouTube

[Hushpuppy321]

7 hours ago, tozmervo said:

I think of the MetroRapid service as "BRT Lite." A full BRT would more or less eliminate busses having to run in mixed traffic at all. So for example, the Northcross park and ride might have a direct bus-only ramp to the express lanes so the bus never even had to deal with exit 25 and Sam Furr road. Stops would also have level boarding to eliminate the steps up into a bus. So it would have the priority and dedicated space of a train line, it just happens to be on rubber wheels.

Do you think Charlotte/CATS is too focused on spurring Development with (expensive) fixed rail transit?

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Do you think Charlotte/CATS is too focused on spurring Development with (expensive) fixed rail transit?

No. I think they'd dump rail entirely from the red line planning except for politics. I believe community meetings for north corridor BRT were supposed to start this year, but I don't recall for sure.

There is a huge question still looming on what commuting and daily transit needs will look like after labor day. If we don't see ridership meaningfully return I'm afraid the political winds will turn. (Here and elsewhere)

[JacksonH]

22 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I wish Charlotte would include a lot more BRT in our transit plans as it is much cheaper and can be built much quicker and it can work just as effectively.  Imagine down Central to Albemarle out much beyond the Eastland site basically to Novant Mint Hill.  Or up north or northwest to Riverbend where Corning is based.  

Would BRT work along Tyvola Road and Fairview Road, connecting the Tyvola Blue Line station to Southpark?

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Do you think Charlotte/CATS is too focused on spurring Development with (expensive) fixed rail transit?

This is an interesting question.  Look at Nashville no rail in sight and it is booming with new development.  I have suggested before property owners closest to the rail lines should be taxed more a special taxing zone similar to what is done uptown with the center city partners which gets a sliver of the tax revenue there.  Georgia has these Community Improvement Districts all over Atlanta for improvements in those specific areas.   It is paid by commercial property owners which would include apartment complexes but not SF homes for example. 

Here for example is the Perimeter CID in Atlanta

FAQ – Perimeter Community Improvement Districts (perimetercid.org)

I am saying something like this along all current rail lines and those planned for the future.   I don't understand why BRT is not more apart of this plan and a much more extensive system could be built in Charlotte for less money. 

And I think BRT is a fixed transit option with designated  stations and fixed routes just on rubber wheels and not on a track. 

[TGIBridays]

How much of this do y'all think is just hopefulness and it won't appreciably change anything for the Red Line discussions?  The "encourages" wording doesn't seem very strong.  https://twitter.com/jasonthomasclt/status/1414051223867740165?s=20

 

**Edit to add the White House fact sheet referenced in the tweet. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/07/09/fact-sheet-executive-order-on-promoting-competition-in-the-american-economy/ 

Edited July 15, 2021 by TGIBridays
Adding context

[CLT2014]

12 hours ago, JacksonH said:

Would BRT work along Tyvola Road and Fairview Road, connecting the Tyvola Blue Line station to Southpark?

Biggest challenge for true BRT (designated right away) would be all the houses through Montford that line Tyvola. You'd need to buy property out to widen the road. There is no median through there, the road is pretty narrow, it turns, and having buses going very fast against stopped traffic without a barrier / right away could be dangerous. 

You'd likely need to run the right away down the middle of the road with stations in the middle on islands, with cross walks to the sidewalks. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

22 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Biggest challenge for true BRT (designated right away) would be all the houses through Montford that line Tyvola. You'd need to buy property out to widen the road. There is no median through there, the road is pretty narrow, it turns, and having buses going very fast against stopped traffic without a barrier / right away could be dangerous. 

You'd likely need to run the right away down the middle of the road with stations in the middle on islands, with cross walks to the sidewalks. 

This is the challenge with any above grade solution to reach South Park. Providence, Park, and Tyvola are already tight 4-lane ROWs that carry a massive amount of vehicles. 

[kermit]

^ This discussion is a nice nut-shell summary of why BRT is often a mirage.  BRT is only cheap when you are willing to take road space from cars. If you can’t do that because drivers are whiny and the city lacks vision (or any other reason) then exclusive ROW BRT it is often more expensive than rail when you consider lifetime costs. You can always run fancy buses in mixed traffic, but since BRT-lite does not appear to spur the same amount of development as rail, what is the point? Does anyone remember CATS' Sprinter service to the airport?

Edited July 15, 2021 by kermit

[kermit]

Today’s Ledger Transit newsletter has the best discussion I have seen about the Silver Line’s airport routing. Steve Harrison does a great job of calling bullcrap on many of CATS' statements about airport route choice and  says the real reason the LRT won’t go to the terminal is because the airport wants to keep its expansion options open.

Quote

“I can tell you that the airport felt strongly very early on that we wanted to do whatever to protect our expansion capabilities,” Gentry said. “We never said never, but we know the minute we brought a structure like that into the inner workings of places that we knew had the potential in 10 years to look very different that we were making some choices there.”
In summary, the airport is constantly expanding and changing. And it doesn’t want a multi-billion dollar train in its way.”

There is some discussion of bringing the Silver Line to the north side of the daily decks. From my perspective that is far enough from the terminal that most riders would want to take the people mover, if so I would just assume to take the people mover from Wilkinson and have a quicker trip for most riders to Gaston. Personally I don't consider a Wilkinson stop combined with a people mover to be a bad choice.

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/transit-time-the-real-reason-whyg

Edited July 15, 2021 by kermit

[Seaboard Fellow]

17 minutes ago, kermit said:

Today’s Ledger Transit newsletter has the best discussion I have seen about the Silver Line’s airport routing. Steve Harrison says the real reason the LRT won’t go to the terminal is the airport wants to keep its expansion options open.

“I can tell you that the airport felt strongly very early on that we wanted to do whatever to protect our expansion capabilities,” Gentry said. “We never said never, but we know the minute we brought a structure like that into the inner workings of places that we knew had the potential in 10 years to look very different that we were making some choices there.”

In summary, the airport is constantly expanding and changing. And it doesn’t want a multi-billion dollar train in its way.”

There is some discussion of bringing the Silver Line to the N side of the daily decks. From my perspective that is far enough from the terminal that I would just assume to take the people mover from Wilkinson and have a quicker trip to Gaston.

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/transit-time-the-real-reason-why

Translation: A one-seat ride to the airport is more complex/expensive than we (CATS) want to take on so we’re blaming the airport. 

I think the best case scenario here is a Silver Line Airport Station that allows pain-free connections to future commuter rail and the people mover. The people mover if designed correctly could be a catalyst for future Airport District growth. 
 

 

[CLT>]

7 hours ago, Seaboard Fellow said:

Translation: A one-seat ride to the airport is more complex/expensive than we (CATS) want to take on so we’re blaming the airport. 

I think the best case scenario here is a Silver Line Airport Station that allows pain-free connections to future commuter rail and the people mover. The people mover if designed correctly could be a catalyst for future Airport District growth. 
 

 

Agreed. The main upside of the non terminal station is that it can house commuter rail, the HSR station to Atlanta, as well as the silver line. The people mover could serve hotels, entertainment, as well as offices in the 'innovation' district they've talked about north of the airport. Would I like a 1 seat ride to the terminal? Sure. But lots of other airports still have great transit connections with a people mover (PHX, JFK, EWR, SFO, Many terminals at DFW)

[kermit]

On 7/15/2021 at 8:27 PM, CLT> said:

But lots of other airports still have great transit connections with a people mover (PHX, JFK, EWR, SFO, Many terminals at DFW)

In addition some airports have badly located ‘in-terminal’ transit stations which require a very long walk with no alternatives. I would much rather change from the Silver Line to a people mover that will take me right to the terminal than have a one seat ride that drops me a half a mile away from the terminal and then walk with luggage (like at SeaTac and Midway, or the north side of the daily decks at CLT)

Edited July 17, 2021 by kermit

[TGIBridays]

I went to the Matthews Community meeting for the Silver Line station area planning last night and I thought y'all might appreciate some of the pictures/information from the event.

I meant to take more pictures but was a bit rushed and I didn't want to bother people trying to look at the maps/renderings.

It definitely felt like they were trying to show the best possible outcomes that could come with the silver line.  They showed some real moonshot ideas in some of the drawings that would be awesome if implemented, but seem prohibitively expensive considering we still don't know where the funding for the line itself will come from.  I'm guessing a lot of this is to build public excitement/support for the project so the voters will be more supportive of the sales tax increase when it gets on the ballot.

 

 Bojangles station.  

Here shown with a proposed pedestrian bridge across Independence on one side of the arena and the light rail bridge with the rail trail on the other side.  They're also proposing they get rid of the surface lot completely replacing it with apartments and a parking deck.

 

Blue Line Station and Caldwell/Davidson Station

Here they're proposing having a station for the transfer to the Blue Line as well as another one 2 blocks away between Caldwell and Davidson, which seems kind of redundant, but I'm sure those living in 1st Ward would appreciate it.  They're also showing a park cap over 277 between Caldwell and Davidson. The lady talking mentioned the Caldwell/Davidson station/cap isn't currently part of the alignment and is just to illustrate the potential options.  They're also showing the Grace Immanuel Village Apartments right next to the proposed station getting knocked down for mid rise apartments. 

Gateway Station Elevation View

For some reason this elevation was stuck on below the Caldwell/Davidson station drawing...  Just shows the proposed elevations of the line in relation to the Amtrak station/tracks.

[JacksonH]

"Bojangles Station":  At first glance I thought that meant they were planning a stop at a Bojangles restaurant!  "Next stop, McDonald's, then KFC Station."

This is great information, though.  Thanks for documenting all this, TGIBridays.

[KJHburg]

For those interested and since it is in the same state here is the Wake County transit plan for 2035.  Lots of bus rapid transit 24 miles which should all be in operation in 10 years, some  37 miles of commuter rail between Garner Raleigh Cary RTP and downtown Durham. (the good thing is RTP is right on the NC RR lines)   Notice emphasis on frequent service even outside the BRT areas and reliability.  (page 30)

Wake-County-Transit-Plan-Update---FINAL-ADOPTED.pdf (nmcdn.io)

enjoy the read and I would hope CATS could learn some things from this.