CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[RANYC]

11 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Poor bus service means this city will always require the vast majority of people to own a car. Adding another light rail line won't change that. They got to get the bus service right as well to build a full SYSTEM.

The views on the CTC though and bus riders as undesirables that influenced the demise of the Epicentre (even among this pro-transit crowd on UP) shows this city is a FAR way off from bus service breaking the stigma it has among choice riders. With bus service so poor, even low-income riders do everything they can to scrape money together for a car because buses don't go where they need to get (note, many transit dependent people DO NOT work in a high rise at a bank).  People could literally get fired relying on the bus to get them to their job here.

Can Uber Save Public Transit?

January 6, 2021 Bloomberg CityLab Article

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-26/what-to-make-of-uber-s-bid-to-help-public-transit

 

[kermit]

1 minute ago, RANYC said:

Can Uber Save Public Transit?

January 6, 2021 Bloomberg CityLab Article

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-26/what-to-make-of-uber-s-bid-to-help-public-transit

 

Uber can't even maintain its core business model, even after they essentially killed the taxi industry.

[RANYC]

28 minutes ago, kermit said:

Uber can't even maintain its core business model, even after they essentially killed the taxi industry.

There are expectations of performance on Uber that would make CATS retreat into a corner like a bunny.  

Having said that, the article reviews and critiques a report by Uber transit, which lays out possibilities for cooperation and collaboration between ride-hailing services and public transit.

Edited August 23, 2021 by RANYC

[kermit]

On 8/23/2021 at 5:46 PM, RANYC said:

Uber has expectations of performance that would make CATS retreat into a corner like a bunny.  

But perhaps Uber isn't the right partner.  Private carriers like Uber and Lyft, however, who use cutting edge tech to ferry around the masses do a ton of things better than public transit agencies.  Perhaps partnerships between such private carriers and the transit agencies are in order.  

Yea, there are certainly good parts of ride hailing (the tech). However, they genuinely failed society when they tacitly promised to be _the_ mobility solution for people and then  used their cheap and nearly unlimited capital supply to nearly eliminate  taxis and damage public transit (see the bus ridership data elsewhere in this thread) while regulators looked the other way. Once people had no other choice but Uber / Lyft their labor model disintegrated in the pandemic and rides are now cost-prohibitive for most. In order to actually serve society, mobility solutions need to be _reliable_, I just dont see how Uber can pull that off given the flaws in its business model.

My daughter is one example of this, she does not drive and choose to be reliant on uber/lyft for much of her transportation at college. Since the pandemic she has had to largely abandon ridesharing  due to cost and wait times.

Edited August 24, 2021 by kermit

[XRZ.ME]

As Hawthorne Lane bridge finished. Can the bus lane in middle of US74 up for some traffic?

 

 

[tozmervo]

29 minutes ago, XRZ.ME said:

As Hawthorne Lane bridge finished. Can the bus lane in middle of US74 up for some traffic?

It will eventually be part of express toll lanes from 277 to 485.  There are no construction dates I'm aware of yet. 

2018-us-74-express-lanes-handout.pdf (ncdot.gov)

[JHart]

13 hours ago, tozmervo said:

It will eventually be part of express toll lanes from 277 to 485.  There are no construction dates I'm aware of yet. 

2018-us-74-express-lanes-handout.pdf (ncdot.gov)

That's a lot of work for a single lane in/out of the city..

[Windsurfer]

7 hours ago, JHart said:

That's a lot of work for a single lane in/out of the city..

Too bad they couldn't make it a bike lane with elevators at the occasional bridge.

[TGIBridays]

46 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

Too bad they couldn't make it a bike lane with elevators at the occasional bridge.

As much as I would love to have a bike lane that extensive... it wouldn't be a very pleasant ride. I have that fear about the silver line rail trail if it ever gets built as well.  Independence is so loud and with all the car fumes, I don't know if that portion of the trail would be desirable. 

[Third Strike]

19 minutes ago, TGIBridays said:

As much as I would love to have a bike lane that extensive... it wouldn't be a very pleasant ride. I have that fear about the silver line rail trail if it ever gets built as well.  Independence is so loud and with all the car fumes, I don't know if that portion of the trail would be desirable. 

I’m not a fan of the alignment they picked for the Silver Line in southeast Charlotte. I feel like it should be mostly routed along Monroe Road and/or the CSX rail line. 

[TGIBridays]

14 hours ago, Third Strike said:

I’m not a fan of the alignment they picked for the Silver Line in southeast Charlotte. I feel like it should be mostly routed along Monroe Road and/or the CSX rail line. 

Agreed.  I sort of understand their reasoning, since going along Monroe Road/the CSX line would require more businesses and homes being disrupted or torn down for construction and would be more costly and/or provide slower travel times.  But like MarcoPolo has mentioned, if the intent is to build a system that serves jobs and housing throughout the city for generations, choosing the easiest alignment is not necessarily in the city's best interest even if it does come out cheaper and with less controversy. 

On 8/1/2021 at 11:24 AM, MarcoPolo said:

 Monroe Rd.   Monroe Rd is to Independence, as South Blvd is to I-77.  It even has a nearby rail line that meanders back and forth within its route corridor as did the original Blue Line corridor.  Monroe Rd passes through centers of employment, through neighborhoods, through towns.  As it approaches Uptown Charlotte it becomes E. 7th St with access to other street routes that open up Elizabeth and Midtown . . . .  Is it easy?  No.  Is is inexpensive?  No?  To play devil's advocate for a moment, neither is building an urban freeway, or even crazier, widening an existing urban freeway, both of which routinely get a "smell test" pass when it comes to funding. 

I know almost nothing about the space requirements for a light rail alignment, but doing a little bit of google map measuring, it seems like routing along Monroe Road would be mostly be feasibly without too much demolition of businesses and homes (an extremely subjective measure obviously) , but would require a massive road diet along Monroe Road and would also require either a lot of at grade crossings and thus slower travel speeds or a massive amount of elevated or tunneled tracks and thus cost and controversy.  Considering the NCDOT project to make Independence into a limited access freeway, it might make sense to take a road diet on Monroe anyway, though I doubt it would help avoid controversy all that much. 

If you're interested in seeing my wasted time at work, this is my stab at a Monroe Road alignment (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=11xVzTczjQq7B1D0uDmph8WeHutBAuoyG&usp=sharing).

 

 

[LKN704]

Now that the streetcar is open, I noticed that they aren't charging fares until Jan 2021.  Could we expect a new fare system (smart cards, etc) to be up and running by that time?

[kermit]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Now that the streetcar is open, I noticed that they aren't charging fares until Jan 2021.  Could we expect a new fare system (smart cards, etc) to be up and running by that time?

That would only be 5 years after CATS originally said they would introduce a smart card system (Some Blue Line vehicles had validators for a short time). It seems unpossible to me that CATS could move so quickly.

(has anyone seen if there are fare machines on the Gold Line vehicles? Just validators? Nothing?)

Edited August 31, 2021 by kermit

[TGIBridays]

3 minutes ago, kermit said:

That would only be 5 years after CATS originally said they would introduce the new system, seems unpossible to me that they could move so quickly.

(has anyone seen if there are fare machines on the Gold Line vehicles? Just validators? Nothing?)

This is from CLT Development's Instagram, is that what you're referring to?

[kermit]

53 minutes ago, TGIBridays said:

This is from CLT Development's Instagram, is that what you're referring to?

Yea, a validator. It’s for a smart card system that you load up online or at a fare machine and then tap the card to the validator when you board to deduct you fare or check your pass. Fare inspectors then use a scanner on your card to verify that you tapped when boarding. 

So I guess CATS really will need a smart card system if they are ever going to collect $ on the Gold Line.  

Once everyone has the appropriate cards life will be easier and it will mostly eliminate the ‘don’t buy a ticket on the app until you see the inspector’ BS.

In London this system is set up to allow you to use any contactless debt card to pay when you tap it to the turnstyle validator. No reason that would not work here.

Edited August 31, 2021 by kermit

[LKN704]

Most transit systems in the world are slowly moving away from smart cards towards either NFC mobile payments made via the transit system's app (you essentially add a digital smart card to your mobile wallet on your device) or via contactless credit/debit cards as kermit referenced above. The new OMNY in NYC system also accepts contactless credit/debit cards as in London, and WMATA in DC is literally as we speak installing new fare gates that work better with mobile devices (the 1980s/1990s era fare gates are a bit wonky sometimes when attempting to use your phone) and will be compatible with contactless bank cards as well IIRC. 

I switched over to just using my phone, but obviously that isn't possible for everyone so smart fare cards aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 

Do the Blue Line LRV also have validators installed, and have they installed new fare boxes/validators on buses? If they haven't, I doubt they will have a system up and running by January then, especially considering they need to find a firm (unless they selected Genfare?) to manage the system and supply the physical cards. 

Are there TVMs on Gold Line platforms? I guess I am trying to figure out how one would top up their fare card once a fare system is in place. 

[kermit]

^

1) the blue line vehicles do not have validators installed (although they were there briefly when the BLE opened but never used)

2) there are no fare machines on the Gold Line platforms, nor is it apparent that there are provisions for wiring and mounting them, so I suspect they are not coming. I am guessing this means CATS is uninterested in visitors to Charlotte riding.

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by kermit

[davidclt]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

^

1) the blue line vehicles do not have validators installed (although they were there briefly when the BLE opened but never used)

2) there are no fare machines on the Gold Line platforms, nor is it apparent that there are provisions for wiring and mounting them, so I suspect they are not coming. I am guessing this means CATS is uninterested in visitors to Charlotte riding.

 

It feels like CATS doesn't even try to make it easy to use the system. They're happy with their captive audience that has no other choice and they have decided the marginal cost per rider to attract riders of choice just isn't worth it. The bus service is miserable and unreliable, the rail service is only marginal better.

[CLT>]

7 hours ago, kermit said:

^

2) there are no fare machines on the Gold Line platforms, nor is it apparent that there are provisions for wiring and mounting them, so I suspect they are not coming. I am guessing this means CATS is uninterested in visitors to Charlotte riding.

 

There are fare machines on the trains themselves (as well as the validators) unfortunately didn't get a pic of them.

[michaelef]

CATS recently release their new mobile app. This is wishful thinking but maybe they will have a way to use the app with the validators on the train.

[videtur quam contuor]

I will be in NYC next week, first time since the subway system installed tap and go NFC payment. It looks like a BIG improvement. If anyone has used it  in NYC let me know if there is any oddity to be aware of. I hope to go to a Yankees game and taxis/rideshare are difficult to procure at game end so subway is the choice. 

Will Charlotte use NFC enabled system?

[tozmervo]

Per Summer 2020 MTC meeting minutes regarding payment methods: 

• 80% of CATS riders have smart phones
• Mobile payment ticketing was top priority (and is effectively in place with the new CATS Pass app)
• Next priorities were fare capping*, then contactless payment (aka NFC)

*No one here really talks about fare capping, but it is an extremely important concept for those totally reliant on CATS. It basically means that once someone has purchased enough tickets to equal the value of a monthly pass, they will ride for free the rest of the month. Folks that can't afford a one-time $88 hit for a monthly pass often end up spending much more than $88 in a month on transit fare. This does require a smart card technical solution to achieve. 

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

I will be in NYC next week, first time since the subway system installed tap and go NFC payment. It looks like a BIG improvement. If anyone has used it  in NYC let me know if there is any oddity to be aware of. I hope to go to a Yankees game and taxis/rideshare are difficult to procure at game end so subway is the choice. 

Will Charlotte use NFC enabled system?

It work's fine. I don't really like it as you need to remember which card was used upon your first entry if you are going to transfer from bus to train and vice versa, or if you want to take advantage of a free out of station transfer and I have seen tourists fumbling around their wallets in front of the turnstiles to see if their card is supported. Most NYers who I know have an unlimited monthly pass which still requires the use of a MetroCard. The current NFC system is really designed for visitors/infrequent users IMO. 

The rollout of the actual OMNY card will be bigger IMO. 

[videtur quam contuor]

My cards have NFC symbol and I assume they are supported. Is that a reasonable assumption? I could also use my ApplePay which is connected to one of my cards. I go there every 6 to twelve months so.

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by tarhoosier

[LKN704]

Yes all cards are supported if they have the NFC symbol.