CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kayman]

On 10/28/2021 at 8:29 PM, KJHburg said:

I think they should use Bus Rapid Transit up the 77 corridor and implement it quickly.  They have the lanes on 77 to speed it up and stations can be off the exits. There is already an express bus parking lot in Huntersville exit 23.  (and should go up to the Lowes campus Mt Mourne area of Mooresville)   They could have this open and operating long before any rail line.  I just dont think NS is going to let them use their RR line.   Stations could be off exit 18 Northlake Mall, exit 23 Huntersville exit 25, exit 28 and exit 30 Davidson landing all with park and ride lots.  then on to Mt Mourne if possible to the huge Lowes campus.  

That's the current plan for the short-term.  However, eventually the density will need to increase near either the I-77 corridor or the N-S right of way for there to be a rail transit component. 

[KJHburg]

Heading out west to El Paso next year and look at their Brio Bus Rapid Transit system.  Frequencies every 10 minutes during the weekdays.  Oh we can dream in Charlotte!  They have a streetcar but it just in the downtown area and treated more as a novelty not a major commuter option.   Just think how many BRT routes we could build in this city.    Will get some El Paso Chihuahua's merch while out there!  (their AAA baseball team) 

Sun Metro Brio | How To

check out that frequency

Sun Metro | Brio (sunmetrobrio.net)

here is their streetcar downtown

Streetcar Route (sunmetro.net)

Pretty impressive system for  a city much smaller than Charlotte and not as wealthy.   Here is a thought: why no BRT out to the airport and maybe to River District? extend current Blue line to Ballantyne.  BRT out Central to Albemarle road to 485.  BRT north to Mooresville using 77 express lanes as much as possible.    Why is riding high frequency buses with fixed stations with off bus fare station not more a part of this multi BILLION dollar plan?  we could build out many BRT lines so much quicker and reach more areas.  Another BRT line out Freedom Drive.  Not sure I understand this anti bus sentiment especially with BRT?.  

[kermit]

42 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

 Why is riding high frequency buses with fixed stations with off bus fare station not more a part of this multi BILLION dollar plan? 

Because none of the political leadership has the sack to remove car lanes that are necessary for effective BRT.

[kayman]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Heading out west to El Paso next year and look at their Brio Bus Rapid Transit system.  Frequencies every 10 minutes during the weekdays.  Oh we can dream in Charlotte!  They have a streetcar but it just in the downtown area and treated more as a novelty not a major commuter option.   Just think how many BRT routes we could build in this city.    Will get some El Paso Chihuahua's merch while out there!  (their AAA baseball team) 

Sun Metro Brio | How To

check out that frequency

Sun Metro | Brio (sunmetrobrio.net)

here is their streetcar downtown

Streetcar Route (sunmetro.net)

Pretty impressive system for  a city much smaller than Charlotte and not as wealthy.   Here is a thought: why no BRT out to the airport and maybe to River District? extend current Blue line to Ballantyne.  BRT out Central to Albemarle road to 485.  BRT north to Mooresville using 77 express lanes as much as possible.    Why is riding high frequency buses with fixed stations with off bus fare station not more a part of this multi BILLION dollar plan?  we could build out many BRT lines so much quicker and reach more areas.  Another BRT line out Freedom Drive.  Not sure I understand this anti bus sentiment especially with BRT?.  

There is a BRT route planned using in the managed express lanes from I-485 LYNX transit station to Ballantyne upon their completion.  It was included in the update of the 2030 CATS System Plan. 

Many of these BRT-lite improvements are being done with the CATS Envision My Ride Bus Prioritization Study implementation.(CATS Envision My Ride )  Those are covering the higher frequency bus routes with BRT improvements including dedicated bus lanes, traffic signal prioritization, bus station typology based on the route rideeship, frequency, headways, and mobility hubs typology (neighborhood, community, regional). Yes most of those routes you mentioned are already identified in this as well. Those are short-term BRT-lite improvements coming upon the plan's completion of current phase and microtransit zones will be identified in the sequential phase.

The Charlotte Transformational Mobility Network is basically the regional greenways & trails (including the Rail Trail along the Blue and Silver lines) buildout, the LYNX Silver Line rail transit, and LYNX Gold Line rail transit extension masked as mostly roadway improvements to ensure the referendum's passage countywide in 2023.

Also the other regional high capacity transit routes are identified in the Connect Beyond regional transit study. The recommendations are basically calling for BRT on many of those very routes. The problem is the local funding match, which means the region as a whole should be on board with transit referendums in their respective counties as well bc Mecklenburg County can only do so much on its own.  The NCDOT has shown it will not really do much to help Charlotte with mass transit expansions unless the NCGA intervenes. 

[tozmervo]

There is a recording of last week's Bus Priority community meeting update. It's a pretty interesting watch if you're interested in the mechanics of bus service, including existing challenges and their options for improving service (*funding dependent)
CATS Envision My Ride Bus Priority Study Virtual Community Meeting: October 28 - YouTube
High res presentation boards may be viewed and commented on at their Virtual Open House: Online Open House | Envision My Ride: Bus Priority Study (arcgis.com)

Screen shots of interest (there are many more at the open house website):

[turbocraig]

They are currently boring into the asphalt parking lot at the LifeSpan school and looks like it’s where one of the concrete track column supports will go.  I’m assuming that’s what they’re doing.   This is would be for the Graham St station. 

[turbocraig]

21 hours ago, turbocraig said:

They are currently boring into the asphalt parking lot at the LifeSpan school and looks like it’s where one of the concrete track column supports will go.  I’m assuming that’s what they’re doing.   This is would be for the Graham St station. 

Hmmm... looks like a false alarm.  They just installed 10 random posts in the parking lot.  Oh well...

[kermit]

Here is Tariq announcing that he has taken a hostage (the Red Line, a project no where near his district) in order to block the state legislation we need to fund transit expansion. Given that the viability of the red line is determined by Norfolk Southern rather than CATS, this strategy effectively kills future transit expansion.

Thanks Tariq…

edit: in addition, CATS is in the process of opening up a faster and higher frequency (than the Red Line) transit option between N Meck and Uptown, the express bus network running on the toll lanes. So Tariq is being obstructionist to achieve what exactly?

 

edit: and after breakfast he decides to blow up the whole plan with this suggestion.

 

I am not going to vote for a ‘transit plan’ that emphasizes roads.

Edited November 4, 2021 by kermit

[CLT2014]

Tariq probably has ambitions to run for a state-wide office and is setting the ground work to shore up support among a Republican area of the Charlotte metro that might not know his name as well. When he runs for state-wide office, he can truthfully say he was advocating for them / cares about them in North Meck before he even ran for state-wide office. This would allow Tariq to build a solid GOP base on both the southern and northern conservative portions of Mecklenburg County. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by CLT2014

[kermit]

30 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Tariq probably has ambitions to run for a state-wide office and is setting the ground work to shore up support among a Republican area of the Charlotte metro that might not know his name as well. When he runs for state-wide office, he can truthfully say he was advocating for them / cares about them in North Meck before he even ran for state-wide office. This would allow Tariq to build a solid GOP base on both the southern and northern conservative portions of Mecklenburg County. 

Yea, makes sense. But F that guy for (at best) delaying transit expansion for another year or two just because of his personal ambitions.

Edited November 3, 2021 by kermit

[kayman]

13 hours ago, kermit said:

Here is Tariq announcing that he has taken a hostage (the Red Line, a project no where near his district) in order to block the state legislation we need to fund transit expansion. Given that the viability of the red line is determined by Norfolk Southern rather than CATS, this strategy effectively kills future transit expansion.

Thanks Tariq…

edit: in addition, CATS is in the process of opening up a faster and higher frequency (than the Red Line) transit option between N Meck and Uptown, the express bus network running on the toll lanes. So Tariq is being obstructionist to achieve what exactly?

 

edit: and after breakfast he decides to blow up the whole plan with this suggestion.

 

I am not going to vote for a ‘transit plan’ that emphasizes roads.

Remember what I said on Monday... 

"The Charlotte Transformational Mobility Network is basically the regional greenways & trails (including the Rail Trail along the Blue and Silver lines) buildout, the LYNX Silver Line rail transit, and LYNX Gold Line rail transit extension masked as mostly roadway improvements to ensure the referendum's passage countywide in 2023."

That's why I posted that.  Including roadway improvements is the only way to get the referendum's passage.  Mecklenburg County has evolved yet to pass a total transit or non-automobile augmented sales tax referendum.  It's getting there but we got to further racially & ideologically diversify the county electorate to achieve that feat. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by kayman

[TGIBridays]

Eric Spanberg wrote basically a summery of Bohkari's trip to Raleigh in the Biz Journal today (article). The last paragraph stuck out to me: 

Quote

Bokhari said Wednesday that a new business coalition will be formed soon and promised that a retooled mobility proposal will lead with rail service to north Mecklenburg rather than the 26-mile east-west light-rail project anchoring the current plan.

As someone who lives in the Matthews area, this seems like a new bait and switch in order to fix the previous bait and switch.  But also, the city put $50 million into the preliminary design of the Silver Line... are we now just going to put that on the back burner to continue and have Norfolk Southern to tell us to pound sand/start over and designing a totally new alignment for N Meck?  

[RugbyPike#11]

Anybody have a chance to read the infrastructure bill yet?  Does this have a chance to speed up silver line construction?

[kermit]

^ There is more construction money (and allocated money for many years which will be very hard to rescind), but I don't believe there are any changes that would allow the construction and funding process to speed up. Nothing can happen at the federal level anyway until the local funding source is sorted out, and that is getting further and further away.

[Desert Power]

On 11/3/2021 at 10:08 AM, kermit said:

Yea, makes sense. But F that guy for (at best) delaying transit expansion for another year or two just because of his personal ambitions.

Yeah. His entire MO seems to be drum up controversy. He is exactly on the wrong side of just about any development related topic too. Can't think of a worse way to attract FinTech, but he knows what plays to the base he is targeting. 

[kayman]

6 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Yeah. His entire MO seems to be drum up controversy. He is exactly on the wrong side of just about any development related topic too. Can't think of a worse way to attract FinTech, but he knows what plays to the base he is targeting. 

Bokhari doesn't realize it but he is overplaying his hand. It shows with his controversy and clout chasing.

Transit is going to move forward with or without Bokhari's support. I know from a reliable source that CRBA made the NCGA bring back SMAP (State Maintenance Assistance Program) for state matches for urban public transit this year. They're working with the NCGA to make the Charlotte Transformational Mobility Network referendum into a reality. Big businesses in Charlotte wants Charlotte to build more mass transit so they can continue to retain and attract more Millennials and Gen Z talent so it won't fall behind its de facto smaller peers or the Tier 1 metro competitors.  This is why most aren't hearing much right now about it other than press release blurs.

[nakers2]

Not sure if it’s appropriate for this thread, but Google maps has some limited live tracking for CATS. Noticed it when contemplating taking the bus to Southpark. Would’ve taken 35 mins from my place uptown, which is about on par with most cities for that distance barring rail transit.

[kayman]

CATS is providing some limited GTFS information. However they are woefully behind on this technology though.

[Spartan]

Given the way the republicans are gerrymandering the shit out of everything, I highly doubt any new transit funding will be heading to Charlotte or anywhere else in North Carolina.

I am not a Tariq fan for many reasons, but to his credit, building an alliance with North Meck is a more successful strategy than going it alone. If the majority of leaders in the County aren't on board, it will certainly never advance in the General Assembly. The (rail-based) Red Line could conceivably happen if there is enough money for a second track + sidings to accommodate passenger rail in a way that doesn't preclude freight. That would be significantly more expensive than the current plan, though. 

All of that said, I am highly skeptical of a Bokhari-led transit movement for the reasons others stated above.

[Madison Parkitect]

On 11/13/2021 at 5:30 PM, Spartan said:

Given the way the republicans are gerrymandering the crap out of everything, I highly doubt any new transit funding will be heading to Charlotte or anywhere else in North Carolina.

I am not a Tariq fan for many reasons, but to his credit, building an alliance with North Meck is a more successful strategy than going it alone. If the majority of leaders in the County aren't on board, it will certainly never advance in the General Assembly. The (rail-based) Red Line could conceivably happen if there is enough money for a second track + sidings to accommodate passenger rail in a way that doesn't preclude freight. That would be significantly more expensive than the current plan, though. 

All of that said, I am highly skeptical of a Bokhari-led transit movement for the reasons others stated above.

Same here. I dislike Tariq a ton, both his politics and the way he goes about them, but I definitely think building a regional alliance is the right idea here. Charlotte has to get the surrounding areas and the GA on board with this, and working with them is the only way that'll happen.

[kermit]

^ meh. With the possible exception of the Red Line regional transit is a completely separate system  than urban transit.  The big problem with the regional perspective is the power brokers in the suburban counties almost always make their cash from auto-oriented residential real estate. These guys see Work From Home as a potential future gold mine and they don’t currently feel a need to pay to connect Cabarrus, Union etc to Uptown Charlotte — their investments bias them into believing that Charlotte-centric model of urban economics is dead. They just want more pavement at home. If any regional transit plan begins to form, I fear the surrounding counties will just end up pulling a Tariq switcheroo to get the funds repurposed to road construction. 

While I do see merit in a regional transit system, I think putting all our eggs into that basket is a) going to delay any transit improvement to the point of uselessness and b) create a commuter-oriented system that reduces densities further which is climate and economic suicide.

(Based on Bokari’s tweet this afternoon its clear that he does not give two craps about transit and is using regional demands simply as a strategy to delay and a means of soapboxing to his new base. He is becoming McCroryized before our eyes.)

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by kermit

[michaelef]

Looks like Charlotte will be awarded $15 million for a new transit hub uptown

https://twitter.com/SenThomTillis/status/1460653714537160712?s=20

[kayman]

On 11/13/2021 at 5:30 PM, Spartan said:

Given the way the republicans are gerrymandering the crap out of everything, I highly doubt any new transit funding will be heading to Charlotte or anywhere else in North Carolina.

I am not a Tariq fan for many reasons, but to his credit, building an alliance with North Meck is a more successful strategy than going it alone. If the majority of leaders in the County aren't on board, it will certainly never advance in the General Assembly. The (rail-based) Red Line could conceivably happen if there is enough money for a second track + sidings to accommodate passenger rail in a way that doesn't preclude freight. That would be significantly more expensive than the current plan, though. 

All of that said, I am highly skeptical of a Bokhari-led transit movement for the reasons others stated above.

 

On 11/15/2021 at 11:22 AM, Madison Parkitect said:

Same here. I dislike Tariq a ton, both his politics and the way he goes about them, but I definitely think building a regional alliance is the right idea here. Charlotte has to get the surrounding areas and the GA on board with this, and working with them is the only way that'll happen.

 

On 11/15/2021 at 12:12 PM, kermit said:

^ meh. With the possible exception of the Red Line regional transit is a completely separate system  than urban transit.  The big problem with the regional perspective is the power brokers in the suburban counties almost always make their cash from auto-oriented residential real estate. These guys see Work From Home as a potential future gold mine and they don’t currently feel a need to pay to connect Cabarrus, Union etc to Uptown Charlotte — their investments bias them into believing that Charlotte-centric model of urban economics is dead. They just want more pavement at home. If any regional transit plan begins to form, I fear the surrounding counties will just end up pulling a Tariq switcheroo to get the funds repurposed to road construction. 

While I do see merit in a regional transit system, I think putting all our eggs into that basket is a) going to delay any transit improvement to the point of uselessness and b) create a commuter-oriented system that reduces densities further which is climate and economic suicide.

(Based on Bokari’s tweet this afternoon its clear that he does not give two craps about transit and is using regional demands simply as a strategy to delay and a means of soapboxing to his new base. He is becoming McCroryized before our eyes.)

 

You'll are underestimating the power of major corporations and the Charlotte Regional Business Alliance (CRBA) influence.  CRBA is the same group that forced the GOP-majority in the NCGA to cede to the requests to bring back State Maintenance and Assistance Program (SMAP) to fund all urban transit systems eligible for them.  Which is basically the ones in Charlotte (CATS), Raleigh (Go Raleigh), Durham (Go Durham), and Go Triangle (Triangle Transit Authority). The influence of major corporations are very real and if they want more transit investments in Charlotte (and maybe the Triangle) then it will happen. I was in a CRBA-led series of regional transportation meetings with attendees including many of the big wigs in the NCGA and very powerful lobbyists. Basically Janet Labar said that, "If you'll don't invest in regional transportation such as more mass transit. Then Charlotte will lose its current competitive edge with younger professionals in Millennial and Gen Z demographic to Atlanta, Nashville, Portland, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Cincinnati, and St. Louis in the next few years.  I wasn't recruited here by these major corporations from Portland to basically watch our competitors surpass us on transit investments to bring more economic development and continue our region's rapid population growth."

The CRBA are a very powerful lobby for transit investments because of the major corporations that have come to Charlotte because of the LYNX Blue Line rail. 

Tariq Bokhari isn't that politically savvy or he would understand this angle. Also he wasn't apart of that CRBA conversation so that tells me he doesn't know what is really going on and cloit chasing like the moron he is...

[kermit]

41 minutes ago, kayman said:

You'll are underestimating the power of major corporations and the Charlotte Regional Business Alliance (CRBA) influence.  

I hope you are right. Unfortunately the CRBA is just a shell of what it once was (back before 2008). Its lost its economic development mission to the city, its largely jettisoned its efforts to represent small businesses and its large members only have a passing interest in the lobbying power of the organization (their attentions being mostly focused elsewhere, particularly during the work from home era). Back in the salad days, our local CEO’s maintained strong political connections in Raleigh, those days are done for every local firm save Duke.

tldr: I increasingly have the feeling that when the CRBA talks no one is listening.

[kayman]

7 minutes ago, kermit said:

I hope you are right. Unfortunately the CRBA is just a shell of what it once was (back before 2008). Its lost its economic development mission to the city, its largely jettisoned its efforts to represent small businesses and its large members only have a passing interest in the lobbying power of the organization (their attentions being mostly focused elsewhere, particularly during the work from home era). Back in the salad days, our local CEO’s maintained strong political connections in Raleigh, those days are done for every local firm save Duke.

tldr: I increasingly have the feeling that when the CRBA talks no one is listening.

Charlotte Regional Business Alliance is relatively new; its the merger of the Charlotte Regional Businsess Partnership and Charlotte Regional Chamber of Commerce I think you're meaning Charlotte Regional Business Partnership (CRBP) which is the old economic development entity. The CRBA has the influence of both and a pretty strong lobbyists in Raleigh. The GOP knows that the money and economic development really matters when comes to population growth.