CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[KJHburg]

Houston has this type of BRT stations along its freeways.  I actually like this plan and hopefully more BRT will be done in Charlotte like out the Albemarle Rd corridor and other places.  

[CltFlyer]

On 11/19/2021 at 12:00 PM, buildleft said:

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2021-11/RaiseGrants_Capital Fact Sheets.pdf

It looks like Charlotte only got $15m instead of the $25m Tillis announced for the replacement bus facility at CTC. Not sure what this means for the project, but it doesn't seem great. Interesting that the grant indicates the office dev will take place after the facility is constructed and not simultaneously, was this already known?

It makes sense given that the CTC Bus Facility will be underground and the retail/office development will go on top of it.  They don't really have another choice.  

[Matthew.Brendan]

Is CATS transitioning its entire bus fleet to electrics? An underground bus depot sounds absolutely miserable. 

[JRCLT]

Is CATS transitioning its entire bus fleet to electrics? An underground bus depot sounds absolutely miserable. 

I saw someone comment on an underground bus transit center in another city having busses run electric underground using a wire I think. So maybe CATS has something like that in mind. It would be miserable if they allowed busses to burn while underground. Ventilation of those fumes would be a big issue.

[san]

2 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I saw someone comment on an underground bus transit center in another city having busses run electric underground using a wire I think. So maybe CATS has something like that in mind. It would be miserable if they allowed busses to burn while underground. Ventilation of those fumes would be a big issue.

Could we potentially see Charlotte taking advantage of Arrival’s electric busses?

[Mgelbach]

1 minute ago, san said:

Could we potentially see Charlotte taking advantage of Arrival’s electric busses?

I'm really hoping so, I've reached out, but havent heard anything yet.

[DMann]

I believe there will only be 12 ports, not the25 or so ports now in use. I also believe they will all be electric. ETA 2027

[ajfunder]

4 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I saw someone comment on an underground bus transit center in another city having busses run electric underground using a wire I think. So maybe CATS has something like that in mind. It would be miserable if they allowed busses to burn while underground. Ventilation of those fumes would be a big issue.

Seattle is probably the city you are thinking of. They had an electrified downtown bus tunnel (on wire) but buses were removed from the tunnels and replaced by light rail a few years ago.

 

I hope the bus concourse is like Denver Union Station where the entire concourse is encased in glass with doors opening to the bus platforms. I'm sure the tunnel will have a ventilation system as well.

[southslider]

I'm just glad they're not moving CTC to Gateway, since Silver Line isn't happening.

[ajfunder]

 

5 hours ago, southslider said:

I'm just glad they're not moving CTC to Gateway, since Silver Line isn't happening.

Well that is a bit of a pessimistic outlook. It has challenges but that project is far from dead.

Edited November 24, 2021 by ajfunder

[kermit]

^If it takes 20 years to design and build the Silver Line can we really say it is alive?

 

[JRCLT]

Took about just as long to plan and build out the blue line…so yeah it’s alive. It’s only dead when it’s abandoned. To be quite honest though it’s way too long to wait. It should be delivered at least in 2030.

[kermit]

12 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Took about just as long to plan and build out the blue line…so yeah it’s alive. It’s only dead when it’s abandoned. To be quite honest though it’s way too long to wait. It should be delivered at least in 2030.

Yea, that's fair.

But the one important difference was the Blue Line had a local revenue source for those 20 years (the existing transit tax was passed in 1998). The Silver Line has not yet reached that critical stage of fetal development.

[JacksonH]

Anybody seen this Youtube channel, Vanishing Underground?  It's an amazing series of videos on the development of rapid transit systems in numerous cities.  I was just looking at this one for Sacramento, population 524,000, metro population of 2.4 million -- much smaller than Charlotte -- and look how far their rapid transit has progressed!  NC cities, especially Charlotte, shouldn't be taking so long 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by JacksonH

[15895]

9 minutes ago, JacksonH said:

Anybody seen this Youtube channel, Vanishing Underground?  It's an amazing series of videos on the development of rapid transits in numerous cities.  I was just looking at this one for Sacramento, population 524,000, metro population of 2.4 million -- much smaller than Charlotte -- and look how far their rapid transit has progressed!  NC cities, especially Charlotte, shouldn't be taking so long 

 

I like those videos. 
 

Unfortunately there is little Charlotte can do as the state has cut off so many resources for Charlotte to fund rail transit.

The state pretty much intentionally killed the avenues for rail expansions. I believe the rationale is they think Charlotte is irresponsible and will raises taxes so high companies won’t come. Maybe I just imagined that though. 
 

[davidclt]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:06 PM, ajfunder said:

Seattle is probably the city you are thinking of. They had an electrified downtown bus tunnel (on wire) but buses were removed from the tunnels and replaced by light rail a few years ago.

 

I hope the bus concourse is like Denver Union Station where the entire concourse is encased in glass with doors opening to the bus platforms. I'm sure the tunnel will have a ventilation system as well.

That looks waaaaay too nice for CATS. We don't want to make those poors (and those of us who choose transit) to have a pleasant experienceor be perceived as spending too much to make the experience pleasant at all.

[JacksonH]

7 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I believe the rationale is they think Charlotte is irresponsible and will raises taxes so high companies won’t come. Maybe I just imagined that though. 

And never mind that Charlotte is one of the fastest-growing cities in the country?  Charlotte's leaders over the last few decades are largely responsible for making that growth happen.  Were it not for their vision, that continues to attract businesses, Charlotte would be another Greensboro, or a Fayetteville or Gastonia even.

[southslider]

18 hours ago, ajfunder said:

 

Well that is a bit of a pessimistic outlook. It has challenges but that project is far from dead.

Realistically, there is no local funding to advance a federal New Starts project anytime soon.

[15895]

10 hours ago, JacksonH said:

And never mind that Charlotte is one of the fastest-growing cities in the country?  Charlotte's leaders over the last few decades are largely responsible for making that growth happen.  Were it not for their vision, that continues to attract businesses, Charlotte would be another Greensboro, or a Fayetteville or Gastonia even.

Exactly. 
 

The airport is the most egregious example when the state tried to take over the airport and Charlotte had to take out a restraining order to retain control. 
 

And again, the rationale was Charlotte was too financially irresponsible to control the airport and might use airport funds to fund streetcar (ignoring that using airport tax revenue for other projects isn’t legal) and this raising cost at the airports to the point Charlotte would lose its hub, etc. 

The state GOP is infuriating. 

 

[JacksonH]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Exactly. 
 

The airport is the most egregious example when the state tried to take over the airport and Charlotte had to take out a restraining order to retain control. 
 

And again, the rationale was Charlotte was too financially irresponsible to control the airport and might use airport funds to fund streetcar (ignoring that using airport tax revenue for other projects isn’t legal) and this raising cost at the airports to the point Charlotte would lose its hub, etc. 

The state GOP is infuriating. 

 

Wow, that's unbelievable.  Just a thought, but is it possible that the state legislature, in the guise of protecting Charlotte's interests, is in fact actually trying to inflict damage on it in an effort to slow down its growth?  After all, politically speaking, the way Charlotte is growing does not benefit those who are trying to hold onto power in the state legislature.  (NC is now a 50/50 state but you'd never know it from the representation in Raleigh.)

A couple years ago when Amazon was looking for its second headquarters, one of the factors they were interested in was a city with a well-developed public transportation system.  It's a quality of life issue and companies like Amazon want to be in a city that can provide all kinds of options for its employees,  including how they get around the city.  People with options are happier people.  Happy people make good, dependable employees and make the company stronger.  And for a city like Charlotte to continue to succeed, it needs to be able to provide these things to attract business.  And if the state legislature truly wants Charlotte to succeed, it will make the silver line and the red line happen, sooner rather than later.

By the way, it's not lost on me why, when you arrive at the Charlotte airport, there's a big sign that says "welcome to Charlotte, U.S.A." and not "welcome to Charlotte, N.C."

[kayman]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:58 AM, kermit said:

^If it takes 20 years to design and build the Silver Line can we really say it is alive?

 

Huh? They put those timelines out to be that conservative to satisfy the b*tchiest and most delusional member of the Charlotte City Council i.e., Tariq Bohkari.  If the transit referendum is to occur in 2023 then it will be shovel ready right around 2028-29 as originally planned.  Some of you need to understand how politics are the reasoning behind the conservative figures.  You cannot let political adversaries (NCGOP) know what you're truly doing  to improve QOL unless you want them to sabotage your plans everytime. 

[kayman]

23 hours ago, JacksonH said:

Wow, that's unbelievable.  Just a thought, but is it possible that the state legislature, in the guise of protecting Charlotte's interests, is in fact actually trying to inflict damage on it in an effort to slow down its growth?  After all, politically speaking, the way Charlotte is growing does not benefit those who are trying to hold onto power in the state legislature.  (NC is now a 50/50 state but you'd never know it from the representation in Raleigh.)

A couple years ago when Amazon was looking for its second headquarters, one of the factors they were interested in was a city with a well-developed public transportation system.  It's a quality of life issue and companies like Amazon want to be in a city that can provide all kinds of options for its employees,  including how they get around the city.  People with options are happier people.  Happy people make good, dependable employees and make the company stronger.  And for a city like Charlotte to continue to succeed, it needs to be able to provide these things to attract business.  And if the state legislature truly wants Charlotte to succeed, it will make the silver line and the red line happen, sooner rather than later.

By the way, it's not lost on me why, when you arrive at the Charlotte airport, there's a big sign that says "welcome to Charlotte, U.S.A." and not "welcome to Charlotte, N.C."

That's because they are trying to do that.  Charlotte and the Triangle are actually accelerating in growth. The non-white population (African American, African,  Caribbean,  Asian, and those of Latino ethnicities) are the fastest growing here in Charlotte.  So that's not in their favor at all.  Charlotte leadership must be strategic in how to get the regional rail system fully  built out

[JacksonH]

6 minutes ago, kayman said:

That's because they are trying to do that.  Charlotte and the Triangle are actually accelerating in growth. The non-white population (African American, African,  Caribbean,  Asian, and those of Latino ethnicities) are the fastest growing here in Charlotte.  So that's not in their favor at all.  Charlotte leadership must be strategic in how to get the regional rail system fully  built out

With the lack of cooperation from the state legislature, indeed they must.  It's interesting watching those videos and seeing how in some cities build these rail transit systems get built up very quickly (Washington, DC may be the best example) while in others they lag.  If there is the will, it will get done.  Atlanta seems to be suffering a similar problem to Charlotte's.  There's been no expansion to MARTA in over two decades.

[kayman]

33 minutes ago, JacksonH said:

With the lack of cooperation from the state legislature, indeed they must.  It's interesting watching those videos and seeing how in some cities build these rail transit systems get built up very quickly (Washington, DC may be the best example) while in others they lag.  If there is the will, it will get done.  Atlanta seems to be suffering a similar problem to Charlotte's.  There's been no expansion to MARTA in over two decades.

All of the cities who have rapidly built regional rail since the 1970s with the exception of Washington are also not in the Southeast.  WMATA was rapidly built because it's the only mass transit system created via a US constituional law (National Capital Transportation Act of 1960 & the sequential Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority Compact of 1966), so basically it's a direct result of an act of Congress. 

This part of the US has a storied history of adversary towards cities and transit development because they are mostly black and non-white places. As a result of  blatant racism and xenophobia, these places are intentionally sabotaged and undermined when they do attempt to build regional rail transit systems.  That's exactly what happened tothe  Atlanta and Miami regional rail transit extensions. 

Charlotte differs from Atlanta as MARTA regional rail system were proposed across portions of 5 counties; whereas, CATS LYNX Rail is mostly in 1 county, Mecklenburg like Miami with Miami MetroRail.   We can learn fem Miami by fully implementing a comprehensive plan that has a well written united development ordinance.   Where we dedicate towards more accommodations towards non-automobile oriented developments in key areas where high capacity transit routes are being proposed. 

We can meet our goal of building our regional rail out over the next 2-3 decades but Charlotte's leadership must be strategic and have efforts shrouded or disguised as a statewide benefit. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by kayman

[kermit]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

Huh? They put those timelines out to be that conservative to satisfy the b*tchiest and most delusional member of the Charlotte City Council i.e., Tariq Bohkari.  If the transit referendum is to occur in 2023 then it will be shovel ready right around 2028-29 as originally planned.  Some of you need to understand how politics are the reasoning behind the conservative figures.  You cannot let political adversaries (NCGOP) know what you're truly doing  to improve QOL unless you want them to sabotage your plans everytime. 

Believe me, I want this to happen yesterday and I would be ecstatic if the original 2029 schedule came to pass. My 20 year statement was largely hyperbole used to indicate the ridiculousness of CATS's and the city's pace towards transit expansion.  While it was a slight exaggeration, the 20 year timeline does come awfully close to the latest that has been offered by the city:

Quote

• Phase A would run southeast from uptown, mostly along Independence Boulevard and Monroe Road, and open in 2036. Phase A would cost $5.1 billion.
• Phase B would run west to the airport, opening in 2039. It would cost $3 billion.

It doesn't really matter to me why this 18 year timeline was published. It is obscene, it damages the city and I'll push back against it.

Honestly, I don't think we can have any confidence in estimated completion dates before local funding has been ratified / the referendum has been passed.   Bohkari is going to need to pull his head out of his ass before that can move forward.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2021-10-02/new-details-emerge-on-charlottes-silver-line-light-rail