CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[RANYC]

Have CATS and the city ever considered how Buses can spur TOD?  There is literature out there on bus-based TOD (BTOD).  20 years is just insane to be waiting for the silver line.  Why not move forward with Bus-based TOD with an electric fleet (likely BRT), with strategically placed stops that are just as nice and covered as Blue Line stops (there's your 'permanence factor'), and do all of this far faster and at a fraction of the costs so that we put more money into greenways and sidewalks and more grid-based local street patterns to better distribute traffic, and let's get moving.  

Edited January 4, 2022 by RANYC

[buildleft]

https://www.ncleg.gov/Sessions/2021/Bills/House/PDF/H165v7.pdf

HB165, passed in November, amends a provision on bus lengths through the inclusion of articulated buses. Does this change the legal status of their use or mean anything of significance for BRT up I-77?

Edited January 5, 2022 by buildleft

[southslider]

^Yes, articulated buses again are legal in NC. Not that the old law ever stopped others outside Charlotte, like Chapel Hill. But at least now, CATS would not being breaking the law. And historically, CATS (though then CTS) operated "artics."  Nothing is really blocking true BRT on 77 except North Towns hanging on to some fantasy of commuter rail.

Edited January 6, 2022 by southslider

[Blue_Devil]

2 hours ago, southslider said:

^Yes, articulated buses again are legal in NC. Not that the old law ever stopped others outside Charlotte, like Chapel Hill. But at least now, CATS would not being breaking the law. And historically, CATS (though then CTS) operated "artics."  Nothing is really blocking true BRT on 77 except North Towns hanging on to some fantasy of commuter rail.

I mean they were promised it, and agreed to additional taxes for it. 

[JRCLT]

^^ It isn’t entirely CAT’s fault so why blame an entity that has no control over that property. A promise is hard to make when the facilities are out of CATS control. Everyone should understand any transit proposal is no promise when it has such a low priority. NS declined passenger rail and unless CATS can impose their will on a Class I railroad company there’s nothing they can really do about the commuter rail aspect? With the BRT they are getting another option at the very least. CATS is clearly still trying to make it happen, but as long as NS sees commuter rail as nuisance and a point of leverage to get to NCRR, it wont happen. (They did offer LRT in the ROW and I think outside the ROW too…wonder what happened with that).

[kermit]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:50 AM, Nathan2 said:

Cats gave a presentation to CRTPO yesterday that showed that 30% design work would begin on Phase III of the gold line this year. So maybe we won't have to worry about much of a transfer. 

Here is a blast from the past. CATS said back in February that design work on Gold Line Phase 3 would begin before the end of 2021. Needless to say, that did not happen (or even get started AFAIK).

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, JeanClt said:

^^ It isn’t entirely CAT’s fault so why blame an entity that has no control over that property. A promise is hard to make when the facilities are out of CATS control. Everyone should understand any transit proposal is no promise when it has such a low priority. NS declined passenger rail and unless CATS can impose their will on a Class I railroad company there’s nothing they can really do about the commuter rail aspect? With the BRT they are getting another option at the very least. CATS is clearly still trying to make it happen, but as long as NS sees commuter rail as nuisance and a point of leverage to get to NCRR, it wont happen. (They did offer LRT in the ROW and I think outside the ROW too…wonder what happened with that).

When you get voters to approve a tax in order to finance something whose  feasibility is unclear, then when it doesn't happen don't be surprised to discover you've lost their confidence and they don't readily rally to your cause when asked for a new round of financing.  At some point, the tax should have ended after it was determined the thing they thought they were financing wouldn't happen within a reasonable timeframe.  I know it's tough to ask, but if only politicians would treat taxpayer funding in the same way that "most" VC firms treat investor funding, then maybe there would be less controversy when funding really big ideas, from a public works perspective.

Edited January 6, 2022 by RANYC

[go_vertical]

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice...?... not gonna get fooled again. 

[JRCLT]

When you get voters to approve a tax in order to finance something whose  feasibility is unclear, then when it doesn't happen don't be surprised to discover you've lost their confidence and they don't readily rally to your cause when asked for a new round of financing.  At some point, the tax should have ended after it was determined the thing they thought they were financing wouldn't happen within a reasonable timeframe.  I know it's tough to ask, but if only politicians would treat taxpayer funding in the same way that "most" VC firms treat investor funding, then maybe there would be less controversy when funding really big ideas, from a public works perspective.

I’m not saying CATS has no fault in this, but it may have been feasible when the the tax vote was made versus years down in negotiations they failed. NS was willing at some point in last decade and then decided not to allow passenger rail. Otherwise I’m sure CATS wouldn’t have pursued that option. Clearly though there was reporting of NS changing their commuter policy that stomped out that plan. That is why I am saying it isn’t entirely CATS fault and it seems voters take that as fact. “My money was used and nothing was built for me in return therefore CATS is bad even though they’re trying to provide BRT as a back up option while they sort for a more appropriate solution.”

Yes, CATS can be inefficient but that is sometimes out of their hands due to lack of funding in the first place. Increasing budget…decreasing budget… why give money to an inefficient agency? Those are all questions that should be answered by an informed individual and honestly I can’t say the public is very aware of the inner workings of CATS or that anyone is really trying to study its spending and operations in way that provides insight to voters on whether to give more funds or ask for reforms to improve the services it provides if it is not performing well.

I have tried to look into to CATS and why it isn’t working in the way it should be operating to maximize benefits to riders. Some people have recently said, “pay operators more to fix the labor shortage!” Well how is CATS going to pay their operators more if people say not to increase CAT’s Budget and or provide the funds??? Doesn’t make sense. It takes investment in Transit to get those things built. The funding isn’t just to pay for the SilverLine about a third of that would go in to busses, greenways, and bike lanes.

My point is that people need to know if CATS is struggling financially or is there reform needed. Either way voters should be informed of that and demand accordingly, not because something they payed for didn’t come to fruition. Yeah, you gave funds through taxes and investments can be risky. Boo-hoo instead of fixing the problem people are just going to deny CATS any funds? For what reason? … I hope the “take away a child’s toys to make them behave” strategy is what’s going to get CATS’ act together or otherwise we are just stunting the growth and operations of our transit system with lack of funding with a growing population and increasingly high congestion of our road infrastructure.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

My point is that people need to know if CATS is struggling financially or is there reform needed. Either way voters should be informed of that and demand accordingly, not because something they payed for didn’t come to fruition. Yeah, you gave funds through taxes and investments can be risky. Boo-hoo instead of fixing the problem people are just going to deny CATS any funds? For what reason? … I hope the “take away a child’s toys to make them behave” strategy is what’s going to get CATS’ act together or otherwise we are just stunting the growth and operations of our transit system with lack of funding with a growing population and increasingly high congestion of our road infrastructure.

North Meck voters can be an angry bunch.... they are a historically more conservative area of the county , but their furor / anger over the toll road project was enough to get GOP Governor Pat McCrory removed from office cause they were ANGRY over those tolls. They often feel like their voice isn't heard and everything in the county revolves around Charlotte, from the toll road to the public school system to transit, et... One could debate the merit, but the reality is those views are there. I think CATS is VERY aware of that and is trying to appease North Meck best they can so they don't lose a whole chunk of the county when the transit vote comes around.

"Precincts that supported McCrory in his 2008 and 2012 campaigns evaporated in 2016.  McCrory only won seven of the 12 north Mecklenburg precincts this time around, compared to four years ago when he won all 12 precincts." 

^Those precincts determined the election.

[RANYC]

50 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

North Meck voters can be an angry bunch.... they are a historically more conservative area of the county , but their furor / anger over the toll road project was enough to get GOP Governor Pat McCrory removed from office cause they were ANGRY over those tolls. They often feel like their voice isn't heard and everything in the county revolves around Charlotte, from the toll road to the public school system to transit, et... One could debate the merit, but the reality is those views are there. I think CATS is VERY aware of that and is trying to appease North Meck best they can so they don't lose a whole chunk of the county when the transit vote comes around.

"Precincts that supported McCrory in his 2008 and 2012 campaigns evaporated in 2016.  McCrory only won seven of the 12 north Mecklenburg precincts this time around, compared to four years ago when he won all 12 precincts." 

^Those precincts determined the election.

We've got all these needs and shortfalls as a state, and just read that the most recent budget is phasing out the corporate income tax and reducing individual income taxes over several years.  The state is booming with current rates, why are we cutting taxes?

[kermit]

These guys just earned a larger portion of my disposable income!

A nice reminder that many of the economic benefits of transit are overlooked.

Edited January 16, 2022 by kermit

[Third Strike]

^If the Red Line ever happens, there should definitely be a station at Camp NorthEnd. Though I don’t know if it would be considered because of how close Gateway would be. 

[kermit]

19 hours ago, Third Strike said:

^If the Red Line ever happens, there should definitely be a station at Camp NorthEnd. Though I don’t know if it would be considered because of how close Gateway would be. 

There may as well be a station there. I suspect pedestrian activity will be so dense along the tracks there that train speeds will be very slow, so adding a stop will only make a small difference to the schedule.

Edited January 17, 2022 by kermit

[CLT2014]

23 hours ago, kermit said:

These guys just earned a larger portion of my disposable income!

A nice reminder that many of the economic benefits of transit are overlooked.

The Gold Line is the only route fully shut down right now due to snow / ice.... Even buses are operating. I swear this streetcar's execution...

[LKN704]

 

23 hours ago, kermit said:

These guys just earned a larger portion of my disposable income!

A nice reminder that many of the economic benefits of transit are overlooked.

To be quite honest, even if Charlotte hypothetically had a larger, more robust transit system, I still think it would likely be paralyzed by winter weather. Granted I am not in Charlotte at present so I am unsure of what local conditions were like there this weekend, but the city (as do other cities in the South) lacks the winter weather infrastructure to ensure CATS operates in periods of heavy winter weather. 

Does CATS even have winter weather equipment? I know MTA Maryland and MBTA both have these devices that they affix to the pantograph that scrapes the ice off the overhead wires. 

[kermit]

47 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

 

To be quite honest, even if Charlotte hypothetically had a larger, more robust transit system, I still think it would likely be paralyzed by winter weather. Granted I am not in Charlotte at present so I am unsure of what local conditions were like there this weekend, but the city (as do other cities in the South) lacks the winter weather infrastructure to ensure CATS operates in periods of heavy winter weather. 

Does CATS even have winter weather equipment? I know MTA Maryland and MBTA both have these devices that they affix to the pantograph that scrapes the ice off the overhead wires. 

I don't disagree that CATS will always struggle to  handle winter weather, today's (lack of) Gold Line service being exhibit 1. But, as I walked to the Southend Publix yesterday to pick up the chicken stock I needed, I was reminded that the presence of transit really does improve walkability (which is important in winter weather), its much less likely that folks can walk to stuff in more auto dependent areas.

(to tie this back to the tweet from Hex, most of the people in Publix yesterday afternoon were waiting in line at the Starbucks)

Edited January 17, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

 
To be quite honest, even if Charlotte hypothetically had a larger, more robust transit system, I still think it would likely be paralyzed by winter weather. Granted I am not in Charlotte at present so I am unsure of what local conditions were like there this weekend, but the city (as do other cities in the South) lacks the winter weather infrastructure to ensure CATS operates in periods of heavy winter weather. 
Does CATS even have winter weather equipment? I know MTA Maryland and MBTA both have these devices that they affix to the pantograph that scrapes the ice off the overhead wires. 

Was the blue line not running? Were busses running either? I’m pretty sure they were. Unless I’m misinformed, I don’t see how a more robust transit system could be understated as you said. I mean, even for the other 360 give or take days that Charlotte doesn’t see icy conditions a robust transit would benefit it greatly. In these conditions I see the transit system as much more valuable in the unsafe road conditions and everyday drivers not used to those conditions.

Gold line was not operating likely due to an issue that came up as CATS tweeted LRT, Bus, and StreetCar would all run weekend service. Winter weather like this is also not common enough here to warrant winter weather equipment which can be costly for the few days in a year we get icy conditions.

Also as Kermit mentioned, Transit truly plays a role in allowing communities to become more walkable. Helps ease the need to get in a car to drive somewhere you otherwise would have to trek miles if you were bold and fit enough to do in a car centric community.

[Urban Cowboy]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, CLT2014 said:

The Gold Line is the only route fully shut down right now due to snow / ice.... Even buses are operating. I swear this streetcar's execution...

Maybe it's because of the inset track? Or simply concern that a car would hit ice and run into the street car?

[Madison Parkitect]

11 minutes ago, Urban Cowboy said:

Maybe it's because of the inset track? Or simply concern that a car would hit ice and run into the street car?

That would be my guess, that the track filled up with ice.

[videtur quam contuor]

Most rail motive vehicles have techniques to disperse sand or other friction materials on track in case of ice or other weather related issues. Sometimes on inclines without weather issues, only for the additional traction necessary to climb. If these modern trolleys are without such a system that is a major flaw.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

That would be my guess, that the track filled up with ice.

Why the Gold Line didn't run is a good question and I sure would like to hear a legit explanation from CATS (I don't think they will offer one). I suspect the issue was just a manpower shortage and the Gold Line was the easiest place to pull workers from. As for technical explanations:

I don't think ice would prevent running. Streetcars can and do run over and crush gravel embedded in the tracks, so I doubt ice would present any derailing issues. As far as slickness and breaking, there are LOTS of streetcars that operate in much icier conditions (Toronto, Helsinki, Stockholm, etc.) and seem to suffer no breaking (or derailing) problems when icy. In terms of ice on the CAT wires, there was no significant ice buildup on trees and wires in Dilworth at any point of the storm, and the Gold Line was out of operation for two (three?) days, most of which had no ice at all so I doubt that is an explanation.

The other possibility is that CATS was so risk adverse that they did not want to risk operating the Gold Line while Gold Line drivers (and cameras) could not see the painted line that separates parking from the streetcar ROW (CATS didn't want to risk a parked car strike incident). IMO that liability should always fall on car drivers regardless of weather conditions.

Regardless the cause, the Gold Line is NEVER going to attract frequent riders if the service is unreliable. CATS appears to be going out of its way to make reliability of this service worse, rather than working to improve it.

Edited January 20, 2022 by kermit

[Nathan2]

Gold line was running fine when I walked by. Apparently they shut it down shortly after I took this photo around noon on Sunday. 

Gold line also made it into this news cast where they seem to be doing maintenance on the tracks. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Nathan2

[kermit]

There was a twitter discussion about the city's flakiness on its TOD zoning, as related to allowing drive throughs in them. One poster said that the decision (to allow drive throughs adjacent to transit was basically giving up on the $1.5 billion that was spent on the Blue Line. Setting aside the merits of that discussion, it got me thinking about the recent history of Charlotte's transit development and planning and I thought I would look back (old guy rant coming, I was here for nearly all of this, but my biases may cause some revisionist stuff to creep through, please correct as necessary)

• Back in 2010 the 2030 plan included the Blue Line (recently opened), the BLE (not yet under construction or fully funded), the Red Line, BRT to Matthews (also labeled the Silver Line) and (last on the priority list) a streetcar extension to the airport! All of this was proposed to be completed by 2030 and was to be funded by the 1/2 cent sales tax that was passed in 1997.
• The Blue line is the only one of these corridors that will be fully built by 2030 (as reported elsewhere, city council reps are saying that there will be no vote on a transit tax increase in 2022)
• The blame for the stalled expansion was placed on: a) sales tax revenue cratering in the 2008 recession; b) construction cost increases that hit in the boom that preceded the 2008 recession
• Despite the success of the original Blue Line there were significant voices against expansion. Remarks frequently cited "changing technology making transit obsolete" such as the hyperloop, autonomous cars and ride sharing
• The city changed station area zoning to TOD well in advance of the original portion of the Blue Line opening. The massive boom in Southend started around the same time as the zoning change and Blue Line opening, but I would not say that causality strongly links these two events. 
• Ridership on the original Blue Line generally exceeded expectations, ridership on the BLE never met those initial expectations (pre-covid)
• Employment in Uptown and Southend grew substantially during this (pre-covid) period, residential populations increased substantially in Uptown, Southend, Sedgefield and later NoDa and Optimist Park. I perceived that employment growth in suburban office centers to grow more slowly than it did along the Blue Line (but I am too lazy to look up the data on sub-county scale employment change)
• During my pre-covid dailly Blue Line riding though uptown it appeared the Blue Line was operating at full capacity during rush hours (BLE open to Covid arrival)

Since 2010 Charlotte has struggled with the following issues: 

• Rapid population growth
• Affordable housing
• Congestion
• Economic inequality and economic immobility
• Increased cost of living / rapid gentrification of nearly every intown neighborhood
• Sprawl (our outward growth has continued unabated in the transit era)

Given that all of the challenges listed above could have been abated (to some extent) by more extensive transit systems, its interesting to think about what Charlotte might have been if the 2030 plan had actually come to fruition.  Would we be measurably better off with the full transit network that was envisioned much more than a decade ago?

It seems clear that we outgrew the possibility that BRT to Matthews or a streetcar to the airport would have been useful. Could we have refocused any of our growth to create a denser Charlotte if we had more transit? Our struggles with the UDO (and the drive throughs in TOD areas) indicate we might not have been successful.

I honestly don't really know what point I am trying to make with all this. But it does make me wonder if we might have been better off )e.g. denser and more livable) spending a few hundred million on world-class bike infrastructure, ending any road expansion and calling it a day.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

Personally I use the BLE when I can and a major reason I don’t more often is the distance I’m traveling to a station and then where I’m going…I think that is an issue for a lot of people that want to use transit. Accessibility and acceptable commute times. Perhaps you could measurably see a difference if a significant amount of people had access to those lines. It would certainly reduce car reliance and therefore congestion.

Transit alone won’t solve congestion though and walkable more well rounded neighborhoods will be what ultimately saves a city from congestion. People need to travel less to get daily/weekly essential shopping and errands. Although you could say transit aids in that transition into more walkable rounded neighborhoods. I can’t imagine where in the world or the possibility exist where a well run and expansive transit system would be a bad thing.