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CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines


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On 1/20/2022 at 5:08 PM, JeanClt said:

Personally I use the BLE when I can and a major reason I don’t more often is the distance I’m traveling to a station and then where I’m going…I think that is an issue for a lot of people that want to use transit. Accessibility and acceptable commute times. Perhaps you could measurably see a difference if a significant amount of people had access to those lines. It would certainly reduce car reliance and therefore congestion.

Transit alone won’t solve congestion though and walkable more well rounded neighborhoods will be what ultimately saves a city from congestion. People need to travel less to get daily/weekly essential shopping and errands. Although you could say transit aids in that transition into more walkable rounded neighborhoods. I can’t imagine where in the world or the possibility exist where a well run and expansive transit system would be a bad thing.

This:

street grids have greater capacity to handle all kinds of traffic, including motor vehicles. This conclusion seems obvious if you think about it. Street grids maximize choice and disperse traffic. Modern road systems minimize choice and concentrate traffic—which means they cease to function at much lower levels of density and activity.”

what about investing in small scale street projects to make streets highly secure for cyclists and walkers, and move much of the city to grid-based streets to better disperse and give choice to car traffic as we densify?  Yes that might mean buying private property to extend roads or remove dead ends and cul de sacs, but would rather spend 8-12 billion on something dispersing traffic holistically, than a couple thin lines of rail to benefit and enrich first bidders on adjacent land.

we are a city of 300 square miles, and tens of billions to construct individual lines for relatively narrow spans of TOD is a joke vanity project.  It isn’t holistic.  Money could be so much better used.  Street grid, cyclist protection, electric buses routed for last mile service along these gridded streets.

What minority is getting rich off these vanity transit projects?

Edited by RANYC
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The issue with a grid in Charlotte is that it has a lot of hills. The best place to build a city would be somewhere relatively flat. Grids are hard to incorporate when the terrain isn’t s plain. I may have misinterpreted what you said, but what I got from that was options for cars? There are simply too many people and cars to allow for sustain that level of car dependency, although you did mention bike lanes and busses. Yes roads can be relatively curvy but that has a lot more to do with topography and it’s constraints rather than an aesthetic or conscious city choice.

Personally I haven’t realized how hilly Charlotte is until I drive through roads of Charlotte.

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25th St is a new connection right at a station and prioritized for that very purpose. But for the millions spent on that new street extension, pedestrian connectivity could have been provided in more directions from the station. One of those key directions is the current Amtrak Charlotte station on North Tryon, an area the Cify just spent millions more adding a gridded pair of one-way streets.  Of course, Gateway will soon provide a new Amtrak station in a very gridded location, just lacking a convenient connection with the Blue Line. 

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21 hours ago, southslider said:

25th St is a new connection right at a station and prioritized for that very purpose. But for the millions spent on that new street extension, pedestrian connectivity could have been provided in more directions from the station. One of those key directions is the current Amtrak Charlotte station on North Tryon, an area the Cify just spent millions more adding a gridded pair of one-way streets.  Of course, Gateway will soon provide a new Amtrak station in a very gridded location, just lacking a convenient connection with the Blue Line. 

And there still isn't even a pedestrian crossing over Davidson there. At least they finally built it out over Brevard a bit because that was a nightmare crossing.

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If you tool around on the development map you can find a number of other proposed street connectivity projects drawn from area plans and the like.  Agreed that there are many more opportunities out there. Sadly the areas that would benefit most would also provide the most push-back to these connections.

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16 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

good story and how plans might have to dramatically change for the Transit plan for the UNC Charlotte Urban Institute 

https://ui.charlotte.edu/story/transit-time-plan-b-charlottes-transit-expansion

Leave it to CATS to f’up their money for much needed expansion just as the largest infrastructure bill in history is looking for places to put many billions into transit. 

Related to the very good Steve Harrison journalism: talk of expanding the bus network and dropping plans for rail is the definition of ‘pennywise and pound foolish’.

Edited by kermit
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This article is concerning.... seems like a coin toss if the Silver Line is going to happen and if their is the will to find a way. Also looks like any existing timelines are out the window and we are probably looking at 2040+ if the transit tax doesn't happen for a few years.

If property taxes from the city of Charlotte largely funds the line (with extensive hikes on city residents), I don't see how they can build the Silver Line into Matthews unless they hike property taxes / help pay for it as well. Hiking taxes on a Steele Creek or Coulwood neighborhood resident and then building into Matthews just won't be right. 

Also interesting to see the county could put a measure on the ballot without permission from Raleigh, but since they aren't responsible for transit, it isn't in their scope. I wonder if the city should transfer CATS to the county?

Edited by CLT2014
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10 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

This article is concerning.... seems like a coin toss if the Silver Line is going to happen and if their is the will to find a way. Also looks like any existing timelines are out the window and we are probably looking at 2040+ if the transit tax doesn't happen for a few years.

If property taxes from the city of Charlotte largely funds the line (with extensive hikes on city residents), I don't see how they can build the Silver Line into Matthews unless they hike property taxes / help pay for it as well. Hiking taxes on a Steele Creek or Coulwood neighborhood resident and then building into Matthews just won't be right. 

Also interesting to see the county could put a measure on the ballot without permission from Raleigh, but since they aren't responsible for transit, it isn't in their scope. I wonder if the city should transfer CATS to the county?

Huh? Transfer to the county? Maybe I am either naïve or not well informed but I don’t think a Blue Line exists if depending on county support.  And how is a global pandemic CATs fault when every public transportation system the US is under the same pressure to make bricks without straw.  
 

Some of you seem to have basic solutions for rather complex issues and are starting to sound ignorant of the state of things or maybe the easy out is to scapegoat CATs.  It’s back to the draw board which seems the article infers.   After all, the author seems to be throwing sht up against the wall and hope something sticks.  Simply trying to push an expanded choo choo down Raleigh’s dominate right wing throat isn’t gonna work… no matter the low hanging fruit from the feds.

 

 

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Perhaps this pause will give a chance to consider whether the Silver Line, as currently proposed, is really the right solution. I think 20+ miles is too long for a light rail line, especially one that seems primarily designed for suburban-to-core service, rather than providing mobility for close-in urban areas. It seems especially wasteful to me, given that nearly the entire alignment closely parallels existing railways. This seems like a repeat of the 1970s mistakes of MARTA, BART, et al - building incompatible and duplicate infrastructure. I'd have to think you could buy the entire CSX line, double-track it, and run regional trains at 15 minute frequencies for far less than $8 billion dollars.

Or alternately, if the city of Charlotte has to go it alone for local funding anyway, why not redistribute the same route mileage within the city itself? 20+ route miles added in the central part of the city would cover a lot of territory and create an actual functional rail network that could facilitate transit use over a much broader area of the city.

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On 1/27/2022 at 2:15 PM, Durhamite said:

Some of you seem to have basic solutions for rather complex issues and are starting to sound ignorant of the state of things or maybe the easy out is to scapegoat CATs.  It’s back to the draw board which seems the article infers.   After all, the author seems to be throwing sht up against the wall and hope something sticks.  Simply trying to push an expanded choo choo down Raleigh’s dominate right wing throat isn’t gonna work… no matter the low hanging fruit from the feds.

I agree, forcing the funding issue in Raleigh won't work. But the problem I have with CATS and the city is they wasted more than a decade to prepare to overcome obstacles like what is faced in Raleigh. CATS has known that they didn't have enough revenue to expand beyond the BLE since 2008. The city and county have known that rapid growth in Charlotte is an inevitability for 40 years (at least) and its been clear that congestion is unsustainable for just as long. Reducing carbon outputs has been a clear societal need for more than a decade. Finally, economists (and pretty much everyone else) have known that the economic prosperity of places is dependent upon continued densification for two decades.

Long story short, CATS and the city have wasted well more than a decade. In that time they produced a few sketches of a LRT line and suggested a bigger sales tax to pay for it. Unfortunately nothing CATS has done has progressed either expansion or funding beyond the suggestion stage. That lack of action means that Charlotte can’t access the infrastructure bill cash. They should have been prepared for expansion (and waves of federal money) a decade ago. The economic viability of the city is at risk because of CATS’ thumb-twiddling.

I am in no way suggesting that the job of transit development is an easy one in this country, but gezzus, I wish they did not squander so much time.

Edited by kermit
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4 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

I disagree. The silver line does a good job of connecting several booming dense areas to uptown and allows for future development just like the blue line. At the same time it will help get suburbanites out of their cars and lessen the rush hour burden on those that live in the urban areas. Areas along independence and the town of Mathews may even be able to start slowly getting away from car only infrastructure.

My one wish is that we could do something more productive with independence boulevard. The states plans to expand independence seems like it would be a waste of money if the silver line ever was built.

It connects those booming dense areas, I just don't know if it does the best job of it. If they made it completely grade separated with fast frequent service (less than 10 min) then I'd say it would be good.  Even better if it was automated so frequency wouldn't be constrained by a lack of man power (like what seems to be happening now with the blue line and gold line). With that long of a trip, the speed of service is going to be very important. If I drive my car or bike to the Matthews or CPCC station and just miss a train and I have to wait another 20+ minutes to catch the next one only to have a 30 minute ride to get to uptown, that's not going to motivate many suburbanites out of cars. 

I definitely agree on your independence point. It seems like it would be a better use of money to invest in a robust and reliable rail connector than to dump more money into adding more car trips into uptown.  If only there was a way to move the billion NCDOT wants to spend on independence to help make the silver line a reality (I say that realizing that money doesn't currently exist either). 

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1 hour ago, TGIBridays said:

It connects those booming dense areas, I just don't know if it does the best job of it. If they made it completely grade separated with fast frequent service (less than 10 min) then I'd say it would be good.  Even better if it was automated so frequency wouldn't be constrained by a lack of man power (like what seems to be happening now with the blue line and gold line). With that long of a trip, the speed of service is going to be very important. If I drive my car or bike to the Matthews or CPCC station and just miss a train and I have to wait another 20+ minutes to catch the next one only to have a 30 minute ride to get to uptown, that's not going to motivate many suburbanites out of cars. 

I definitely agree on your independence point. It seems like it would be a better use of money to invest in a robust and reliable rail connector than to dump more money into adding more car trips into uptown.  If only there was a way to move the billion NCDOT wants to spend on independence to help make the silver line a reality (I say that realizing that money doesn't currently exist either). 

I see your points and agree. Though getting the infrastructure built at least ensures the possibility that frequencies one day are possible. I fear the effects of nothing at all are much worse. 

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

The funding issues also might help us evaluate whether a hub and spoke model into Uptown is really the best alignment for a post COVID world where white collar jobs move to a hybrid model and workers are only commuting into Uptown 2 or 3 days per week. This will have a long lasting impacting on demand to commute into Uptown daily and our system is very white collar commuting focused. Instead, maybe the alignment model needs to be focused on connecting entertainment, parks, shopping, and neighborhoods so people that work from home can run an errand after work with the train rather than get in their car to go to Target or a restaurant, et... Connecting these types of employment centers (hospitality, shopping, et..) also benefits lower wage workers that benefit from transit's affordability more than choice white collar workers, who going forward might need to only endure their Matthews to Uptown commute three days per week. 

 

This is where busses come on. Buses should be able to take people from train stations to these areas instead of into uptown since the light rail will take care of this. I don't see how construction of light rail is possible anywhere else because of the limited amount of land left. 

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On 1/27/2022 at 4:28 PM, kermit said:

I agree, forcing the funding issue in Raleigh won't work. But the problem I have with CATS and the city is they wasted more than a decade to prepare to overcome obstacles like what is faced in Raleigh. CATS has known that they didn't have enough revenue to expand beyond the BLE since 2008. The city and county have known that rapid growth in Charlotte is an inevitability for 40 years (at least) and its been clear that congestion is unsustainable for just as long. Reducing carbon outputs has been a clear societal need for more than a decade. Finally, economists (and pretty much everyone else) have known that the economic prosperity of places is dependent upon continued densification for two decades.

Long story short, CATS and the city have wasted well more than a decade. In that time they produced a few sketches of a LRT line and suggested a bigger sales tax to pay for it. Unfortunately nothing CATS has done has progressed either expansion or funding beyond the suggestion stage. That lack of action means that Charlotte can’t access the infrastructure bill cash. They should have been prepared for expansion (and waves of federal money) a decade ago. The economic viability of the city is at risk because of CATS’ thumb-twiddling.

I am in no way suggesting that the job of transit development is an easy one in this country, but gezzus, I wish they did not squander so much time.

You do know that the City of Charlotte controls CATS, right?  You want action then elect progressive Charlotte City Council members who supports mass transit planning, funding, and action in 2022 and again in 2023. 

Edited by kayman
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4 minutes ago, kayman said:

You do know that the City of Charlotte controls CATS, right?  You want action then elect Charlotte City Council members who supports mass transit planning, funding, and action in 2022 and again in 2023. 

So this is only sort-of true. CATS is a City of Charlotte department, but it is governed by the MTC that includes all county mayors, the chair of the county commission, and one state person. The MTC ultimately  sets the budget and planning priorities, not the city. Charlotte itself funded both phases of the streetcar and "handed it over" to CATS to operate, but the light rail projects past and future are county-level projects. 

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33 minutes ago, kayman said:

You do know that the City of Charlotte controls CATS, right?  You want action then elect Charlotte City Council members who supports mass transit planning, funding, and action in 2022 and again in 2023. 

The City of Charlotte only has one voting seat on the Metropolitan Planning Commission (MTC) that has to approve fare increases, approve funding, et. for transportation projects in the county. The current member is Mayor Vi Lyles. The other 8 voting seats are held by the mayors of Cornelius, Davidson, Huntersville, Matthews, Mint Hill, and Pineville, the chairman of the Meck County Board of Commissioners, and the regional lead for the NC Board of Transportation in Meck. The amount of seats held by suburban towns is a factor in why the Red Line is such a hot topic of conversation as those mayors have an obligation to get something for the areas they represent in North Meck.

Here are the members of the MTC:

 https://charlottenc.gov/cats/boards/Pages/mtc-members.aspx

Edited by CLT2014
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