CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

The MTC is a formality when it comes the transit funding referendum.  The real purse strings are held by the entity who primarily funds and will be the fiduciary partner which is COC thus the Charlotte City Council.

The expectation that others such as the MTC, Mecklenburg County, or the State of North Carolina are going to pull the trigger is naive.  This is why I'm so adamant about more consistent civic engagement from the main critics of CATS. 

Otherwise, CATS must be spun off from the COC as an actual regional public transit authority.  Maybe then the MTC might have more power beyond a policy adoption formality vote for the referendum. Maybe just maybe have the MTC would have the power to push for a referendum on its like its more successful peers in Denver with RTD, Metro in Portland,  the Metropolitan Council in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis-St. Paul). 

Thank you!  However I work in planning, so I'm very familiar with and actually presented to the Metropolitan Transit Commission (MTC) before.

Financials and political will are the real powers behind the regional transit expansion. A policy body like MTC does not have much power beyond tasking staff with implementing plans or initiatives. 

This is all about politics.  If you don't understand and respect that then you'll are just talking in circles and circular blaming. 

So I think your comment that this is "about politics" is precisely what empowers the MTC. The MTC has the appearance of being just a formality because the politics have been determined before there is a vote: ie, they have gotten buy-in from the mayors before it even comes to a vote. The actions necessary to get that buy-in are what drives the process now. I don't entirely disagree that CATS should be spun off as an independent agency fully reporting to a board in lieu of the city or county manager, but I do disagree with the suggestion that the MTC is just a formality in the current system. 

[kayman]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

So I think your comment that this is "about politics" is precisely what empowers the MTC. The MTC has the appearance of being just a formality because the politics have been determined before there is a vote: ie, they have gotten buy-in from the mayors before it even comes to a vote. The actions necessary to get that buy-in are what drives the process now. I don't entirely disagree that CATS should be spun off as an independent agency fully reporting to a board in lieu of the city or county manager, but I do disagree with the suggestion that the MTC is just a formality in the current system. 

I hate to tell you, but is what usually happens before most MTC votes.  Those mayors and other elected officials only know what the CATS staff informing  about and presented to them. There are some substantial attempts of regional buy-in via the MTC. The power of the purse is still with COC, i.e. Charlotte City Council at the end of the day.

The actions that us as citizens must do is get more people in elected decision-making positions in COC City Council along with the other municipalities who thinks regionally and globally about regional transit. The only way we can achieve this regional transit system buildout is act via voting in those who are rather than talk and criticize without substantive actions of our own.  

I mean you can believe otherwise as that's your prerogative but those are the hard facts as a transportation professional in these spaces debriefing those elected individuals. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by kayman

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The City of Charlotte only has one voting seat on the Metropolitan Planning Commission (MTC) that has to approve fare increases, approve funding, et. for transportation projects in the county. The current member is Mayor Vi Lyles. The other 8 voting seats are held by the mayors of Cornelius, Davidson, Huntersville, Matthews, Mint Hill, and Pineville, the chairman of the Meck County Board of Commissioners, and the regional lead for the NC Board of Transportation in Meck. The amount of seats held by suburban towns is a factor in why the Red Line is such a hot topic of conversation as those mayors have an obligation to get something for the areas they represent in North Meck.

Here are the members of the MTC:

 https://charlottenc.gov/cats/boards/Pages/mtc-members.aspx

This seems insane to me.  Mass transit usage is typically a city/urban issue, and my guess is that most transit demand comes from urbanists/inner city denizens.  Only one city of charlotte vote on this thing seems ridiculous.  Why is that not ridiculous?  Someone...anyone?  Does an entity inclusive of suburbia have an easier time with bond issues to fund projects?  Is that it?

Edited February 2, 2022 by RANYC

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, RANYC said:

This seems insane to me.  Mass transit usage is typically a city/urban issue, and my guess is that most transit demand comes from urbanists/inner city denizens.  Only one city of charlotte vote on this thing seems ridiculous.  Why is that not ridiculous?  Someone...anyone?  Does an entity inclusive of suburbia have an easier time with bond issues to fund projects?  Is that it?

The whole county pays the sales tax, so non-Charlotte residents have earned a voice in the process.

[TCLT]

The whole county pays the sales tax, so non-Charlotte residents have earned a voice in the process.

A voice sure. But an equal voice? A greater voice? How much of the tax revenue comes from Charlotte?

[CLT2014]

3 hours ago, TCLT said:

A voice sure. But an equal voice? A greater voice? How much of the tax revenue comes from Charlotte?

One could argue a resident in Cornelius pays more property tax because their house is worth more than somebody in West Charlotte if we start that game and pays more sales tax per capital due to their higher median incomes though... But West Charlotte is getting rail and Cornelius is not.

Edited February 3, 2022 by CLT2014

[JRCLT]

One could argue a resident in Cornelius pays more property tax because their house is worth more than somebody in West Charlotte if we start that game and pays more sales tax per capital due to their higher median incomes though... But West Charlotte is getting rail and Cornelius is not.

Get a cheapen home… And I think the whole point of that you just made proves those resident are they likely to own a car and therefore do not have a greater need for transit as compared to West Charlotte. Taxes are a way of distributing wealth for the greater benefit of the whole. West Charlotte getting more reliable and accessible transit would like in turn lead to less cars on the road than before and thereby less traffic and more gas and time savings for those who choose drive. (Hypothetically speaking).

https://www.mecknc.gov/TaxCollections/SiteAssets/Pages/Mecklenburg-County-Tax-Rates/2020-2021%20Tax%20Brochure.pdf

Looking at these numbers it is likely that Charlotte contributes a significant amount of money to the county at least when looking purely at numbers. The City of Charlotte operates on a significantly greater budget than the county itself. It’s difficult to find the exact break down how much each municipality contributes to the budget. Maybe someone would have better luck than me.

I say this not because Cornelius shouldn’t be getting rail but the fact some have been saying in gist, “Well if we don’t get transit then no one gets transit.” That doesn’t work in anyones best interest and frankly an immature response to the underdelivered transit promised to north Mecklenburg County. The Uptown to Matthews and Uptown to the airport was also proposed same as the Red Line. This all just seems to me more like a “ME FIRST! ME FIRST!” argument (the order isn’t in priority if anything other than what is most feasible, at least that’s what I would think).

[RANYC]

13 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

One could argue a resident in Cornelius pays more property tax because their house is worth more than somebody in West Charlotte if we start that game and pays more sales tax per capital due to their higher median incomes though... But West Charlotte is getting rail and Cornelius is not.

1 - City of Charlotte is far more inclusive than just West Charlotte, last I checked.

2 - So that I'm clear, per your post, "one" is arguing that a municipality of 30k like Cornelius should have a disproportionate voice in transit policy on the premise that it has wealthier constituents?  Cornelius gets more per capita representation than the tens of thousands in South Charlotte or Myers Park because those tens of thousands are in a shared community with the supposed "poor people" of West Charlotte?  Can you clarify?

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by RANYC

[CLT2014]

5 minutes ago, RANYC said:

So that I'm clear, per your post, "one" is arguing that a municipality like Cornelius should have a disproportionate voice in transit policy because it has wealthier constituents?

Sorry, I do not think they should have a disproportionate vote... I thought the opposition was to them having any vote at all simply because it is a suburban town. IMO we should have regional transit districts where citizens elect somebody to represent them in a district based on population, not by town limits.

Edited February 3, 2022 by CLT2014

[RANYC]

3 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Sorry, I do not think they should have a disproportionate vote... I thought the opposition was to them having any vote at all simply because it is a suburban town. IMO we should have regional transit districts where citizens elect somebody to represent them in a district based on population, not by town limits.

OK got it.  I don't know enough to "oppose" yet, just surprised to learn that the municipality with multiples of the others in population, only has 1 vote in Transit policy, and questioning the wisdom behind that.

Edited February 3, 2022 by RANYC

[15895]

IMO, Cornelius, Davidson and Huntersville are much more urban than Charlotte overall outside a couple miles of radius from Trade/Tryon.

They want rail, a major component of their communities are planned around rail stations, etc. It just feels like Urban/Suburban leaders totally just gave up on certain efforts that NC is controlled by the right who tend to be slightly hostile to some urban policies. Is there really no way - as the minority party - that urban/suburban politicians can't negotiate at least some money towards mass transit? Or the ability to raise local taxes for it? It seems like LKN fights harder than Charlotte does in general.

I will say, I'm not too familiar anymore with the dynamics of politics in NC as much as I used to be so. I'm totally open that my opinion maybe perhaps ignorant. 

(But I do stand by LKN being more urban than Charlotte outside the very core central area. Even then, lots of communities in LKN with houses being required to front the street, on-street parking and alleys in the back for garages do feel more urban than the residential areas of Plaza or Dilworth for example)

Edited February 3, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT2014]

Just now, RANYC said:

OK got it.  I don't know enough to "oppose" yet, just surprised to learn that the municipality with multiples of the others in population, only has 1 vote in Transit policy, and questioning the wisdom behind that.

It probably wasn't wise. I didn't live here back in 1998 and it looks like a significant amount of compromising went into getting the suburban towns to agree to the original county-wide transit tax for a transit agency operated by the city of Charlotte. One of the five guiding principals agreed in the original MTC contract is "representation of town interests." 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

It probably wasn't wise. I didn't live here back in 1998 and it looks like a significant amount of compromising went into getting the suburban towns to agree to the original county-wide transit tax for a transit agency operated by the city of Charlotte. One of the five guiding principals agreed in the original MTC contract is "representation of town interests." 

I want to keep an open mind.  In my view, Charlotte has done a ton of things right.  There's an article in Bizjournals today about office develoment over the past 20 years in cities across America.  Some 67% of that construction took place in the suburbs.  The article, however, calls out Austin, TX, Charlotte, NC, and DC as notable exceptions, with a large proportion of office development taking place in and re-shaping their CBDs.  I doubt that all the construction we've seen here since the 2010s is just a reaction to policies and government officials in the 2010s.  It's the sprouting of seeds planted well before, perhaps even back in the 1990s.  Bringing all these towns to the table as equals on a priority like transit perhaps gets reps from all parts of the county to set a collective vision for transit, as opposed to believing that transit is strictly an inner city issue while suburbanites are strictly mobility self-determinists.  Places like Huntersville and Cornelius appear to be growing far smarter than what I've seen around metros in Florida or Georgia, and perhaps that's because of the extent of their inclusion in programs like transit-policy creation.  Is regionalism the reason for the Uptown CBD's relative success?

Edited February 3, 2022 by RANYC

[kermit]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:23 PM, RANYC said:

Places like Huntersville and Cornelius appear to be growing far smarter than what I've seen around metros in Florida or Georgia, and perhaps that's because of the extent of their inclusion in programs like transit-policy creation.

To me the saddest part of the Red Line's failure is that some very good planning decisions in N. Meck communities got the shaft. Davidson, Cornelius and Huntersville created community cores that could have become walkable gems if the density was supported with high frequency rail (to be fair this was something the Red Line never really promised).  Unfortunately, the red line’s delay and demise led to a decade-plus of much more sprawl, the additional cars drawn by the sprawl have made these villages (with the exception of Davidson) much less walkable over time (take that with a grain of salt, I am not up there much).

From a mobility perspective, the BRT that is currently in the design phase for N Meck promises faster and higher frequency transportation to Uptown than the Red Line could ever provide. Unfortunately, it runs in the interstate (and the stations are within the 77 corridor) so the BRT will do nothing to reduce sprawl and promote density in North Meck -- riders are just gonna drive to these stations.  Even if the Red Line appears magically one day in the future, N Meck towns will be too far down the sprawl vortex for any real urbanism to emerge.

I have given up on decent urbanism developing in Charlotte. Back 22 years ago I bought a house on a modest salary where I was told I could soon ride the rail to work. It took 17 years (five longer than initially suggested) for that to come to fruition. Up until around 2015 I could see a path for Mecklenburg to become a showpiece of sustainable urban development, but over the past decade it seems like we are moving in the opposite direction. Conscious decisions which slow-rolled the UDO, and transit planning,  the willingness of the council to ignore growth, laziness on bike infrastructure, kowtowing to drivers, etc. have snowballed to the point where I no longer see a future for Charlotte that avoids full-scale Atlantafication. While I feel like most of our decision makers are well intentioned, their passivity in response to our growth rate (e.g. "lets do another study" or "lets do some more lobbying" or 'lets get more public feedback" or 'lets wring our hands about gentrification for a while") leads to increasingly bad outcomes.

On 2/3/2022 at 12:23 PM, RANYC said:

 Is regionalism the reason for the Uptown CBD's relative success.

IMO uptown's success is entirely a product of our primary industry, banking, and the motivations of the people who led those two big banks (mostly Hugh McColl and (to a lesser extent) Ed Crutchfield). Bank HQs needed to be in a prominent location in an important looking building. Suburban HQs just weren't gonna fly for Southern banks who yearned for national credibility. The fact that the guys who ran those banks were from the region, and grew up in small towns where companies were largely responsible for the health and expansion of the town (Hugh McColl's dad owned a textile mill in SC) meant that they were willing to do a bunch of heavy lifting (and LOTS of corporate money spending) to ensure Uptown was in (relatively) good health.  Hugh McColl also talked a good bit about building a Southern source of capital for industrialists in the region, so moving the banks outside of the South (which would have had big benefits for talent acquisition and participation in capital markets) was a non-starter because Hugh felt like his dad got treated badly by New York bankers when he needed to expand his mill -- Hugh sought to fix that.

Edited February 5, 2022 by kermit

[Reverie39]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:16 PM, MothBeast said:

I have been in touch with someone and it is just a simple matter of  the right people not being aware. Should be a quick fix

edit: keep in mind it is the holidays and local government so it will still take longer than it should 

Did anything ever come of this? I was chatting with some others in another thread about the lack of Lynx lines on Google Maps and remembered this from a while ago

[JRCLT]

Can we throw money at transit like we do highways… all I’m asking.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Did anything ever come of this? I was chatting with some others in another thread about the lack of Lynx lines on Google Maps and remembered this from a while ago

Unfortunately it’s been weeks since without hearing anything, but I asked just before the holidays. But I have trouble getting people i directly work with to answer emails . Going through google could be a direct way if someone wants to try that

[Reverie39]

21 hours ago, MothBeast said:

Unfortunately it’s been weeks since without hearing anything, but I asked just before the holidays. But I have trouble getting people i directly work with to answer emails . Going through google could be a direct way if someone wants to try that

Hmm that's too bad. Were you talking to [email protected]?

What astounds me is how simple of a fix this should be. It would probably take someone at Google a couple minutes to program it in lol. 

[Guest]

I emailed a human, but I tried 311 and Google yesterday, we shall see.

[TGIBridays]

On 2/5/2022 at 8:11 PM, Reverie39 said:

Hmm that's too bad. Were you talking to [email protected]?

What astounds me is how simple of a fix this should be. It would probably take someone at Google a couple minutes to program it in lol. 

I emailed the telltransit address about it and they misunderstood what I was talking about (they thought I was talking about getting transit directions).  I emailed back with screenshots explaining it more clearly and haven't gotten response. 

[davidclt]

1 hour ago, TGIBridays said:

I emailed the telltransit address about it and they misunderstood what I was talking about (they thought I was talking about getting transit directions).  I emailed back with screenshots explaining it more clearly and haven't gotten response. 

You only get one response form telltransit then you have to call 704-336-RIDE if you have any other questions or comments on their answers (where they won't be able to help you either). They're not interested in solving problems. CATS needs new leadership, a new (regional) charter and a new organization. CATS consistently gives a hearty FU to the citizens of Charlotte and the customers who use their services either by choice or necessity. Five years in the making and the new CATS Pass app is still a half-hearted POS that's not complete and doesn't work particularly well. CATS simply doesn't care.

[Durhamite]

19 minutes ago, davidclt said:

You only get one response form telltransit then you have to call 704-336-RIDE if you have any other questions or comments on their answers (where they won't be able to help you either). They're not interested in solving problems. CATS needs new leadership, a new (regional) charter and a new organization. CATS consistently gives a hearty FU to the citizens of Charlotte and the customers who use their services either by choice or necessity. Five years in the making and the new CATS Pass app is still a half-hearted POS that's not complete and doesn't work particularly well. CATS simply doesn't care.

Same complaint, no matter the public transportation system. Under staffed and under funded…yawn, if you think a slate of new people will wave a magic wand and fix things is comical…they could actually make it worst.

[Reverie39]

12 hours ago, TGIBridays said:

I emailed the telltransit address about it and they misunderstood what I was talking about (they thought I was talking about getting transit directions).  I emailed back with screenshots explaining it more clearly and haven't gotten response. 

Screenshots are a good idea, maybe any of us who are willing should start their first email to [email protected] with screenshot examples (other cities vs. Charlotte). I will do this in the morning. May be good to showcase cities of similar/smaller size or with relatively new light rail systems to show that it is not just something reserved for the huge metro systems. Sacramento, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Twin Cities, etc. are all examples of this.

[TGIBridays]

21 hours ago, davidclt said:

You only get one response form telltransit then you have to call 704-336-RIDE if you have any other questions or comments on their answers (where they won't be able to help you either). They're not interested in solving problems. CATS needs new leadership, a new (regional) charter and a new organization. CATS consistently gives a hearty FU to the citizens of Charlotte and the customers who use their services either by choice or necessity. Five years in the making and the new CATS Pass app is still a half-hearted POS that's not complete and doesn't work particularly well. CATS simply doesn't care.

They did reply back to me.  But they just said I could find the system maps on the CATS website. 

[Urban Cowboy]

Rail lines (like the red, blue, and silver) are in my opinion, more about economic development AND perception than ridership. The silver line corridor needs far more economic help than the suburban settlements that 77 serves - and it will make Charlotte better/stronger. The region is doing great, because of Charlotte. It's not the other way around. Reading through these comments, it's interesting to see a desire for densification of Huntersville, Cornelius, and Davidson. If residents of those communities wanted densification or an urban feel, why would they choose to live there in the first place? In-town Davidson is cute, but it's barely a one-sided block, and it can't even support a bike shop. Mooresville is the only true town up 77 - everything else is suburban sprawl, strip malls, and white flight subdivisions. North meck residents want the perceived safety and "good schools" that being 17+ miles from Charlotte brings. Turns out, a lot of other people had the same idea and so traffic is terrible if they want to get TO Charlotte. Same thing is happening down in Weddington and Waxhaw now.

The entire dialogue around the red line, toll lanes, traffic, and frankly the yapping of northern Mecklenburg county residents has always annoyed me. The conversation has always been, and will continue to be, about north meck residents feeling entitled to an alternative to driving on 77. Nothing more, nothing less. The state gave them an alternative...brand new toll lanes! And pre-pandemic, when commuting was worse than it is now, the toll lanes would be nearly empty while north meck residents stubbornly sat in traffic jams in the right 2 lanes. They disagreed with the toll lanes and felt entitled to free widening because of THEIR property taxes. Years later, many are still too stubborn to take advantage of the toll lanes because they don't want to pay. But, you're telling me these same people will pay and ride the red line? Or they'll pay and ride a bus for the first time ever???!

For the record - I think the red line is a great idea and would be helpful. But it's simply not a transit priority nor should it be. For those of us that work, play, and live in Charlotte - traffic is rarely bad on in-town city streets. For those who live further out and rely on 77, 485, and 74 to get TO Charlotte.. traffic is terrible and that's a valid perception. If you want access to Charlotte to be more convenient, then move closer to Charlotte. You cannot have it all, especially in a city and region bursting at the seams.  The Charlotte region will be strong with or without the red line - whereas the connectivity of the silver line I think will be transformative for development and perception in-town. Which is why it's the overwhelming priority for those unfortunate enough to be the decision makers.