CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Durhamite]

21 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Yep. Was having this conversation just a few days ago. I love transit and will vote for just about anything, but it is foolish to think a referendum is going to go well with how the community sees CATS. Even people that actually use it are frustrated with reliability/timing issues.

Y’all still don’t get my point, it’s basically bad everywhere in the US and perceived that way. Or simply that people who ride it all the time in mass transit mature cities are accustomed to how it works which is  far from perfect. Even when I was regular rush hour rider in DC, most people would opt to use a car if not for significant subsidies by fed agencies. I know I would have and not talking about the non rush hour or weekend leisure rider…it could be brutal at times with delays, capacity etc.
 

The LRT isn’t even that mature in Charlotte. I just think people in the South (Native NC) aren’t used to a lot of mass transit challenges, headaches, etc and expectations aren’t quite realistic with reality.   Not inferring to lower the bar, but if you can’t pass it now, I just don’t see a magical wand to all of a sudden “fix” things.  Then there’s the entire shift in work location culture due to technology.  So, my vote is get what you can now, at least try to instead of waiting  on CATs to fix what probably will never be fixed. …it wasn’t even possible when they sold the bill of goods day one.

[JHart]

1 hour ago, Durhamite said:

most people would opt to use a car if not for significant subsidies by fed agencies.

Counterpoint: Most people would opt to use mass transit if not for significant subsidies by fed agencies. 

[kermit]

So CBJ reports that CATS got this much stimulus cash:

Quote

CATS spent $32.5 million of its $202 million in Covid-19 relief money by the end of fiscal year 2021, according to spokesperson Juliann Sheldon.

I gotta ask why the unspent $170 million has not been used to hire additional operators to return frequencies to reasonable levels?

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/02/15/local-covid-19-funding-nearing-5-billion.html

[JRCLT]

So CBJ reports that CATS got this much stimulus cash:

CATS spent $32.5 million of its $202 million in Covid-19 relief money by the end of fiscal year 2021, according to spokesperson Juliann Sheldon.

I gotta ask why the unspent $170 million has not been used to hire additional operators to return frequencies to reasonable levels?
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/02/15/local-covid-19-funding-nearing-5-billion.html

What exactly was the money they spent- spent on?

[kermit]

5 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

What exactly was the money they spent- spent on?

 

From the same CBJ article:

Quote

Because light-rail and bus lines, among other services, have largely kept running throughout Covid, even when ridership has been lower than normal, federal recovery money has been used to shore up revenue gaps, provide additional pay for drivers and other workers enduring risk of infection, buy personal protective equipment including face coverings, enhance cleaning of vehicles and install barriers around drivers.

Sheldon said that the remaining $169.5 million will be spent over the next five years. The money will be used for operations and maintenance, capital improvements, and employee and passenger safety, among other things.

 

[Nathan2]

Seems like there is a new contingent of candidates at the city and county level that don't believe light rail is or should be the future. It worries me that many "urbanists" are getting behind the idea that we should only invest in busses. Busses are important and will be even more important when we have a wider light rail network. Seems like people just don't want to ruffle feathers with any tax increases. 

[Reverie39]

This is just from personal experience but I know many, many people who just never take buses of any kind... but are happy to take rapid transit trains. If I had to guess the reason is that people take public transportation to avoid traffic, not still end up sitting in it. This would also extend to streetcars. The sad reality is that not too many people consider buses to be a serious form of public transit and most will never take them.

I think of the cities where many people are comfortable not owning any cars. New York, Chicago, DC, maybe Boston and Philly? All of these cities have extensive rapid transit train systems. Even if some theoretical city had an incredible bus system that could take you anywhere conveniently, everyone would still own cars. In my opinion.

[Blue_Devil]

1 hour ago, Nathan2 said:

Seems like there is a new contingent of candidates at the city and county level that don't believe light rail is or should be the future. It worries me that many "urbanists" are getting behind the idea that we should only invest in busses. Busses are important and will be even more important when we have a wider light rail network. Seems like people just don't want to ruffle feathers with any tax increases. 

Quite a few candidates believe the growth caused by light rail further causes displacement of poor communities who would benefit from light rail. The thought is busses do not. 

[Desert Power]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:47 AM, Durhamite said:

Y’all still don’t get my point, it’s basically bad everywhere in the US and perceived that way. Or simply that people who ride it all the time in mass transit mature cities are accustomed to how it works which is  far from perfect. Even when I was regular rush hour rider in DC, most people would opt to use a car if not for significant subsidies by fed agencies. I know I would have and not talking about the non rush hour or weekend leisure rider…it could be brutal at times with delays, capacity etc.
 

The LRT isn’t even that mature in Charlotte. I just think people in the South (Native NC) aren’t used to a lot of mass transit challenges, headaches, etc and expectations aren’t quite realistic with reality.   Not inferring to lower the bar, but if you can’t pass it now, I just don’t see a magical wand to all of a sudden “fix” things.  Then there’s the entire shift in work location culture due to technology.  So, my vote is get what you can now, at least try to instead of waiting  on CATs to fix what probably will never be fixed. …it wasn’t even possible when they sold the bill of goods day one.

I've certainly experienced delays in DC too. Big difference is that they could still tell you when the next train is expected to arrive. In Charlotte, you have to just sit there with no clue where the train is in real time. No transit system I've been on in the world has lacked that. CATS cannot even do the basics. I very much doubt it would be successful at the ballot right now.

[15895]

4 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

Quite a few candidates believe the growth caused by light rail further causes displacement of poor communities who would benefit from light rail. The thought is busses do not. 

People blame everything on mass transit (I'm not saying you are but in general, but mass transit is always a scape goat). Light Rail displacing poor communities is a function of poor urban planning qualities, lack of resources for lower/middle income residents, lack of affordability strategy, etc. all at the fault of the governing entity. Expanding mass transit (rail) doesn't inherently displace residents. If the city built multiple rail lines, would all the areas it touch displace middle and lower income families? 

My complaint about Charlotte's urban growth is that it seems geared to a single demographic that will not stay long-term (younger single professionals). It isn't geared towards long-term residents, families, lower/middle income people, the working class, etc. That's my perception. 

Urban, smart, dense growth is expensive. Either raise revenue to build smart or just build out and cheap.

Edited February 23, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

Rail is more efficient than tires on asphalt. That’s a fact and if a transit system is truly “mass” it will boast a robust rail network (the best mode to transport a “mass” of people) also by expectation will be Rapid as well.

[Durhamite]

5 hours ago, Desert Power said:

I've certainly experienced delays in DC too. Big difference is that they could still tell you when the next train is expected to arrive. In Charlotte, you have to just sit there with no clue where the train is in real time. No transit system I've been on in the world has lacked that. CATS cannot even do the basics. I very much doubt it would be successful at the ballot right now.

What other light rail lines have you used on a frequent basis?  CATs can only do what they have money to do.  

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, Durhamite said:

What other light rail lines have you used on a frequent basis?  CATs can only do what they have money to do.  

I've never heard they can't do real time tracking due to costs. In fact I thought they'd promised it several times which they wouldn't do it funding was an issue I would think. Do you have a source for that? It would not surprise me if they're underfunded but it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't budget correctly. 

[Third Strike]

With gas prices soaring, especially with the Russia-Ukraine crisis, do y’all think transit ridership will increase overall? Hopefully more people will push for expanding our transit network, especially commuters that travel long distances. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/business/brent-oil-ukraine-russia/index.html

 

[CLT2014]

2 hours ago, Third Strike said:

With gas prices soaring, especially with the Russia-Ukraine crisis, do y’all think transit ridership will increase overall? Hopefully more people will push for expanding our transit network, especially commuters that travel long distances. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/business/brent-oil-ukraine-russia/index.html

I don't think we will see much of a needle move personally. Frequencies are still too low and buses are unreliable. You can pay more for gas or be chronically late to work all the time and possibly get fired. We are considering moving many of our hybrid employees Uptown from 3 days in the office to 2 days if gas prices stay high persistently to ease the financial burden of commuting. 

The unfortunate reality is most of our region's lowest paying jobs where people are most impacted by the gas price increase... they aren't off the light rail. Think retail jobs at the malls, fast food jobs clustered off busy roads like Independence, call centers in suburban office parks, et.... these aren't in the gleaming Uptown skyscrapers. They are largely in car dependent parts of town and people don't really have an option to use transit even if they preferred it to save money. 

For the blue dress shirt Toyota 4Runner, Jeep Wrangler, and BMW X5 crowd that fills the parking garages of Uptown.... if gas prices mattered to them they would be driving a Toyota Prius. Those folks are hard to get out of their cars. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by CLT2014

[Desert Power]

18 hours ago, Durhamite said:

What other light rail lines have you used on a frequent basis?  CATs can only do what they have money to do.  

What? I've ridden these in several cities. Do you think there is something unique about light rail systems that make using GPS on them much more expensive than on buses and cars? I guarantee you CATS collects this data, they just don't want to publish it.

[Durhamite]

3 hours ago, Desert Power said:

What? I've ridden these in several cities. Do you think there is something unique about light rail systems that make using GPS on them much more expensive than on buses and cars? I guarantee you CATS collects this data, they just don't want to publish it.

My question was on a frequent basis? No it isn’t unique, most mass transit in America is relatively problematic , even mature systems.  All speculation and  “guarantee”  what? I guarantee you have no clue.  

[JRCLT]

CATS is giving me a little bit a tour tomorrow morning. I’ll try to ask relevant questions to the blue line and transit system in general for you all. ; ) Let me know what I should ask about.

[Guest]

The dang google map lines please

[JRCLT]

The dang google map lines please

Could you elaborate. I’ve been reading about it but I don’t recall the issue very clearly.

[Guest]

The transit lines don’t appear on google maps. Just look at any other city with transit and you’ll see what I mean. I feel like there should be a fairly simple solution but there could be some strange red tape I can’t imagine. 

[Reverie39]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

Could you elaborate. I’ve been reading about it but I don’t recall the issue very clearly.

Yes please, I 100% second MothBeast. He and I and others were discussing this earlier. Go to the Google Maps site and enable the transit option. Head over to almost any city in the US with rapid transit trains - from elaborate systems like Chicago or Philadelphia to smaller or newer systems like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Sacramento, or Saint Louis. You will see colored lines painted over the map indicating the routes. Then head over to good old Charlotte and enjoy the view of absolutely nothing. It's weird! We all agreed earlier that Google Maps is probably a huge way that travelers and newcomers are exposed to public transportation, and CATS should make it a priority to get the Blue and Gold lines to appear there clearly. (Yes even Gold, you can see in Washington DC for example that Google Maps displays their streetcar-only route so we should have that too)

Edited February 26, 2022 by Reverie39

[JRCLT]

A few things I got:

First and foremost the question in question:
Google Maps transit alignment feature is based on Google itself. CATS fairly new at putting the data out there for mapping companies to use, so I suppose Google just hasn’t got around to it. Apple Maps does show it so I wouldn’t think it’s a CATS issue rather Google. I’d say reach out to them instead. In gist CATS puts it out there and those companies use it or don’t.

In terms of live tracking of light rail cars they are putting in modems into all cars to allow for wifi services as well as GPS. Not all vehicles are equipped with that yet. Once that is don’t they will bring the system online. (No timeframe given but seems soon). Also yes they do know where the light rail cars are at all times. I’ve seen some comments about whether they do and why not use that. The system is meant for their control center use to monitor the system.

18 Electric Busses are supposed to start trial or be on some routes in March at some point (didn’t get to much details). I don’t know if this was already out there. They are testing battery capacity and how to optimize their use on routes.

In terms of BLE frequency they’re working on trying to get it back to 7.5 minutes on peak hours after COVID dies down more (whatever that means) because they don’t want to be running empty trains. They seem to understand well the benefits of having higher frequencies although.

[elrodvt]

The Google thing is kind of lame. It benefits their customers so why don't THEY contact them? All the responses just seem kind of ....  "laid back". 

At least they do seem to have good goals though.

Thank you for getting this information.

Edited February 26, 2022 by elrodvt

[kermit]

Yea, I don't really think the Google Maps thing is on CATS. Google compiles all of its map information from very large scale databases. They don't take calls from individuals (or organizations) that say "please put my unique data into google maps"

Open Street Maps on the other hand is developed by individuals and is generally much more up to date than Google Maps, it  does have the Blue Line and the (up to date) Gold Line. Having said that, I do see the importance of the lines appearing on GM, but IMHO that is a google fudge up.

Edited February 27, 2022 by kermit