CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[CLT2014]

Black Charlotte leaders voice concern on transit sales tax plan... 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article258938208.html#storylink=mainstage_card2

North Meck will already vote No on a tax. Parts of South Charlotte will be No. If black Charlotteans turn on the light rail and vote No, I'd say Silver Line is toast like Nashville's transit plan. The Affordable Housing requests would need to be a much bigger parts of Silver Line budget than it is right now.

[kermit]

I don’t know the details of the meeting but the Urban Land Institute is presenting some consulting work results (?) to CATS (?) on Silver Line Development projections. (From an Eric Spanberg tweet)

 

EDIT: Here is the CBJ article: https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/03/03/experts-high-in-on-charlottes-light-rail-vision.html

Quote

The experts recommended taking a second look at how the Silver Line is routed through uptown, including suggestions to consider consolidating three planned stations or connecting with the existing north-south light-rail line in the center city and then branching off to the east and west.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

They did mention BLE was kind of a let’s see what happens to housing along the line. They expected affordable housing to pop up and also see generally how the market would react around the line. Now that they have seen that is not the case and CATS wants to encourage more affordable housing to be implemented along the silver line.

[RANYC]

Wow, didn’t know uptown pop was so low.  Glad that presentation is sounding an alarm on the matter.  Wikipedia has uptown population at 30-35k

[kermit]

4 hours ago, RANYC said:

Wow, didn’t know uptown pop was so low.  Glad that presentation is sounding an alarm on the matter.  Wikipedia has uptown population at 30-35k

Yea, there are two very different numbers for uptown pop (around 12k and around 25k) that have been competing  for more than a decade. Its a measurement issue related to the underlying census geographies I believe. (I also think CCCP uses a very “Chamber of Commerce” number in their reports -- I think they lump Southend and Uptown pops together).

Edit: Popstats is a data vendor that most grocery stores use for their location work. I just checked and they report 18,173 within 277 (data for Q1 2020, I have not updated my subscription). Other commercial sources will present slightly different numbers for a variety of reasons, but the 18k number is what most commercial folks are seeing for uptown population.

Edited March 3, 2022 by kermit

[kayman]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:29 PM, JeanClt said:

Separating them won’t change the fact that the DOT has final say. Judging from their expression they like to the integration CATS has with the city for now. If they’re having trouble under the same authority the City…imagine what would happen if they were independent…CATS relies on city departments and work closely with them. Still confused by what it is mean by separating CATS and the city and how that would give CATS more freedom or advantages?

Not to be argumentative, CATS and CDOT have two entirely different missions.  CDOT in its current form is a roadway-oriented with limited intent towards non-roadway focus or initiatives. CDOT is a creature and relic of the 1990s-early 2000s philosophy of transportation. The major impediments CDOT are presenting could be alleviated by  CATS having its own planning and real estate functions.  Also, CATS' lack of ability to innovate as peer mass transit systems is the overreliance on the City of Charlotte (COC) departmental functions. If you really want to know there would have to be intergovernmental agreement to get things done whether CATS is a city department or independent agency.  Yes, I'm well aware that CATS originally was a division with CDOT.  However, there is a major benefit along with more direct accountability to the customers and citizens and funding worthiness for CATS to be independent of the COC.  Another point contention is the real estate and asset management of CATS is owned and handled by the COC not CATS.  This is a huge problem because they are a lot of roadblocks and issues associated with CATS not being its own independent entity. This all will come to light as the LYNX Silver Line and associated Rail Trail gets to the  construction phase.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by kayman

[RANYC]

58 minutes ago, kayman said:

Not to be argumentative, CATS and CDOT have two entirely different missions.  CDOT in its current form is a roadway-oriented with limited intent towards non-roadway focus or initiatives. CDOT is a creature and relic of the 1990s-early 2000s philosophy of transportation. The major impediments CDOT are presenting could be alleviated by not having CATS its own planning and real estate functions.  Also, CATS' lack of ability to innovate as peer mass transit systems is the overreliance on the City of Charlotte (COC) department functions. If you really want to know there would have to be intergovernmental agreement to get things done whether CATS is a city department or independent agency.  Yes, I'm well aware that CATS originally was a division with CDOT.  However, there is a major benefit along with more direct accountability to the customers and citizens for CATS to be independent of the COC.  Another point contention is the real estate and asset management of CATS is owned and handled by the COC not CATS.  This is a huge problem because they are a lot of roadblocks and issues associated with CATS not being its own independent entity.  

 

 

What about financing?  CATS doesn't issue bonds I assume, but as a regional transit body, perhaps it could, like the MTA in Manhattan?

Also, does CATS improve its standing applying for federal grants as a regional authority?

CDOT is funded by what...COC budget appropriation?  Meck County appropriation?  NCDOT appropriation?  Or direct appropriation from the State Legislature?  Assume CDOT does not issue bonds?

[kayman]

56 minutes ago, RANYC said:

What about financing?  CATS doesn't issue bonds I assume, but as a regional transit body, perhaps it could, like the MTA in Manhattan?

Also, does CATS improve its standing applying for federal grants as a regional authority?

CDOT is funded by what...COC budget appropriation?  Meck County appropriation?  NCDOT appropriation?  Or direct appropriation from the State Legislature?  Assume CDOT does not issue bonds?

If CATS is independent, then it would finance and hold its own bond rating itself as an independent state authority like the Raleigh-Durham Airport Authority.   CDOT is a COC budget appropriation.  The only entities with COC independent of the main budget is CLT Airport and CATS which are both enterprise funds,   Enterprise funds are funding from various sources.  CATS is funded by the Mecklenburg County transit sales tax, NCDOT funds (Surface Maintenance and Assistant Program/SMAP), federal funds (FTA Section 5303, 5307, 5310, 5339, 5340) sources.

[kayman]

On 3/1/2022 at 8:48 PM, CLT2014 said:

Black Charlotte leaders voice concern on transit sales tax plan... 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article258938208.html#storylink=mainstage_card2

North Meck will already vote No on a tax. Parts of South Charlotte will be No. If black Charlotteans turn on the light rail and vote No, I'd say Silver Line is toast like Nashville's transit plan. The Affordable Housing requests would need to be a much bigger parts of Silver Line budget than it is right now.

I'm a paid member of the Black Political Caucus of Charlotte-Mecklenburg County.  This is the biggest lie and dumbest sh*t I've heard in a minute.

Gentrification comes with or without transit in Charlotte because it's explosively growing.  Developers and predatory lenders will push out those whom aren't stealth, applies forethought, and family conversations around generational investment and wealth need to occur around black-owned properties in Charlotte.  

I'm going to have some choice words at the next meeting about this misinformation. We should be encouraging transit investment not discouraging this.  This is a guarantee that Charlotte would wind up as effed up as Atlanta on transit.  Furthermore, my demographic (black folks) will be the same one crowing 2-3 decades later, "Where is the transit investments for our neighborhoods?" like the black Metro Atlantans seem to crow all the time there. 

 

[kayman]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

I don’t know the details of the meeting but the Urban Land Institute is presenting some consulting work results (?) to CATS (?) on Silver Line Development projections. (From an Eric Spanberg tweet)

 

I was in this very meeting today.  ULI had some valid points, but...

The shared right-of-way proposal of the LYNX Silver Line along the LYNX Blue Line right-of-way was foolish.  The number of at-grade crossings in Uptown would double.  The Silver Line needs to be fully grade separated with a dedicated right-of-way for the entire 29-mile route with no at-grade crossings at all.

The other points mentioned today including the Uptown population.  The Uptown wards population combined is about 15,000 because of the non-existent population in the Second Ward outside of the 550 Uptown, The Francis, and the Savoy apartments.  

TOD should be promoted throughout the COC not just within the high-capacity transit corridors. The other portions about the potential infill development were very encouraging. 

[TGIBridays]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

The shared right-of-way proposal of the LYNX Silver Line along the LYNX Blue Line right-of-way was foolish.  The number of at-grade crossings in Uptown would double.  The Silver Line needs to be fully grade separated with a dedicated right-of-way for the entire 29-mile route with no at-grade crossings at all.

Wait, they're now proposing an at-grade crossing with the blue line?   Grade separation all the way (from roads and the blue line). Also if it's grade separated with a dedicated row, go ahead and make it automated. 

[southslider]

Urban Land Institute is very pro-transit and yet they can even see how Red Linr may doom all other expansion plans by warning Charlotte, "be direct and intentional about its future."  In other words, stop blaming Norfolk Southern and show only I-77 BRT as what can be built for the foreseeable future.

[kermit]

San Francisco based urbanist came to Charlotte and talks about how impressed he is with the TOD here. Unfortunately we can't get out of our own way to enable more of this type of development.

SMDH.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by kermit

[KJHburg]

did not know where to put this but this plan for small shuttles around the University area is a great idea with all the huge employers up there in the URP.  The new bridge over I-85 is meant to be a signature bridge for coming into Charlotte. 

 

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/transit-time-university-city-eyes?s=w

[Reverie39]

On 2/26/2022 at 3:35 PM, JeanClt said:

A few things I got:

First and foremost the question in question:
Google Maps transit alignment feature is based on Google itself. CATS fairly new at putting the data out there for mapping companies to use, so I suppose Google just hasn’t got around to it. Apple Maps does show it so I wouldn’t think it’s a CATS issue rather Google. I’d say reach out to them instead. In gist CATS puts it out there and those companies use it or don’t.

In terms of live tracking of light rail cars they are putting in modems into all cars to allow for wifi services as well as GPS. Not all vehicles are equipped with that yet. Once that is don’t they will bring the system online. (No timeframe given but seems soon). Also yes they do know where the light rail cars are at all times. I’ve seen some comments about whether they do and why not use that. The system is meant for their control center use to monitor the system.

18 Electric Busses are supposed to start trial or be on some routes in March at some point (didn’t get to much details). I don’t know if this was already out there. They are testing battery capacity and how to optimize their use on routes.

In terms of BLE frequency they’re working on trying to get it back to 7.5 minutes on peak hours after COVID dies down more (whatever that means) because they don’t want to be running empty trains. They seem to understand well the benefits of having higher frequencies although.

Thanks for looking into this. It makes sense that it's a Google issue and not a CATS issue, but that's annoying because I don't really think us individuals could really get through to Google to make it happen. I do get the sense that if CATS really cared, they'd be pushing Google to do it (and have more sway as a government organization), but they clearly don't. Sad because things like this help Charlotte be taken more seriously as it transitions into a big city. Oh well.

[JRCLT]

I think it may be because they want more people to use their app. Like the engineer said, CATS puts it out there but It’s up to the company and if they don’t do anything with it, it’s a shrug from CATS. The app that they’re making is probably the reason why they wouldn’t care to try and talk to Google. Apple Maps does it and shows even Amtrak routes. I’m not sure why Google is lacking on transit.

[Reverie39]

On another note, I was watching some cool Youtube videos on the evolution of different rapid transit networks across the US. There's one for Charlotte, and also ones for much older and larger systems like Washington DC. 

DC in particular has such an incredible heavy rail metro system, and a big part of that is the region's huge population (more than double the MSA population of Charlotte) as well as how many tourists and important visitors are there at all times. But what really struck me is just how fast some of this was built. The video shows how over basically a couple years in the 70's and 80's, huge chunks of the current metro system were completed at astonishing speed. It is worth noting that recent expansions have been much slower, with many delays of the Silver Line expansion and a Purple Line light rail planned that I hadn't even heard of - after some Googling, this has been a project in the works for decades with very little progress. Still, their system continues to grow.

If I'm correct, our timeline is:

• Blue Line initial opening 2007
• Gold Line initial opening 2015
• Blue Line extension 2018
• Gold Line extension 2021
• Gold Line final extension... 2033?
• Silver Line... 2037?

Things were moving decently for a while, but seems like we're coming up on an enormous gap without any transit progress. And honestly, what are the chances Silver Line doesn't even happen at this point, because I worry that they're non-zero. We need to stay on top of our game! The city is growing fast but it will struggle to become a true American major city if it can't update its public transportation like the other growing major cities do. Forget DC, just look at Dallas and Seattle which are seemingly always working on new lines, some of which are literally light rail subways under their downtowns.

[RANYC]

For all those contemplating a regional approach to light rail, inclusive of communities in South Carolina, please consider the latest news out of Rock Hill on its payment delays and the halting of Panthers HQ construction.  

[JacksonH]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:49 PM, Reverie39 said:

 Forget DC, just look at Dallas and Seattle which are seemingly always working on new lines, some of which are literally light rail subways under their downtowns.

Heck, look at Portland and Sacramento.  They each have multiple light rail lines with two to three times as many rail miles as Charlotte, and they're smaller cities!  

[Reverie39]

10 hours ago, JacksonH said:

Heck, look at Portland and Sacramento.  They each have multiple light rail lines with two to three times as many rail miles as Charlotte, and they're smaller cities!  

Agreed. Portland in particular has such an extensive system, it's very impressive. 

I do think it's worth noting that both cities' lines (at least according to my quick inspection on Google Maps) effectively transition into streetcars like the Gold Line in their urban cores. Running with traffic and not grade-separated. That does make me appreciate the Blue Line a little more. But they do appear to have their own rights of way outside of those regions.

[LKN704]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:49 PM, Reverie39 said:

On another note, I was watching some cool Youtube videos on the evolution of different rapid transit networks across the US. There's one for Charlotte, and also ones for much older and larger systems like Washington DC. 

DC in particular has such an incredible heavy rail metro system, and a big part of that is the region's huge population (more than double the MSA population of Charlotte) as well as how many tourists and important visitors are there at all times. But what really struck me is just how fast some of this was built. The video shows how over basically a couple years in the 70's and 80's, huge chunks of the current metro system were completed at astonishing speed. It is worth noting that recent expansions have been much slower, with many delays of the Silver Line expansion and a Purple Line light rail planned that I hadn't even heard of - after some Googling, this has been a project in the works for decades with very little progress. Still, their system continues to grow.

If I'm correct, our timeline is:

• Blue Line initial opening 2007
• Gold Line initial opening 2015
• Blue Line extension 2018
• Gold Line extension 2021
• Gold Line final extension... 2033?
• Silver Line... 2037?

Things were moving decently for a while, but seems like we're coming up on an enormous gap without any transit progress. And honestly, what are the chances Silver Line doesn't even happen at this point, because I worry that they're non-zero. We need to stay on top of our game! The city is growing fast but it will struggle to become a true American major city if it can't update its public transportation like the other growing major cities do. Forget DC, just look at Dallas and Seattle which are seemingly always working on new lines, some of which are literally light rail subways under their downtowns.

I can't speak for Seattle or Dallas (although Seattle's extensive use of tunneling for much of their extensions makes me quite envious for Charlotte) but regarding DC, I think generally speaking, things just worked better in the 1970s and 1980s (in terms of funding, construction) than they do today. There was less red tape involved in many projects, and the public (along with government across all levels) at large saw the need and was willing to pay for such grandiose systems.The Federal government also was willing to fund a lot more than they do today. The cost of Metro (along other 1970s/1980s era transit systems) was significantly covered by the Federal government...I think around 67%. Compare that to how the Feds funded like what, 30% of NYC's Second Ave Subway? 

The entire original BART system in SF was also built quickly, in a span of around 10 years. A remarkable feat IMO, considering they had to build a 3.5 mile undersea immersed tube in a seismically active area! IIRC, BART also received around 60-65% in funding from the Federal government. 

I can't speak for Atlanta, but in DC, the system arose as a result of number of high-profile freeway revolts in the 1960s. The Federal government had planned to built a second freeway loop around the city, this time actually in DC proper. A percentage of the funding set aside for that project went towards building Metro. 

A lot of people don't know this, but the Federal money used to built MARTA was actually originally destined for Seattle. Seattle had an ambitious rapid transit plan in the late 1960s/early 1970s ("Forward Thrust") to build a subway throughout the region, but the tax referendum failed and the $900 million dollars was sent to Atlanta instead. 

If Charlotte had its current population, development, and traffic congestion in the 1960s/1970s that you see today, Charlotte quite probably would have landed itself a subway system. 

Great video, btw. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by LKN704

[videtur quam contuor]

I visited DC 50 years ago during construction of the Metro. In the Mall there were large heaps of dirt in every direction, 10-20 feet high. The areas around the construction had boardwalks due to the mud from dirt and rain mixed into the landscape. There were signs directing me to the locations where pedestrian crossovers were located to access the other side of the excavations. It was early Spring, prior to cherry blossoms, dark clouds both days, and the unsightly landscape and weather made it a visit to remember in an unusual and unpleasant fashion. I had no idea that such a project was underway. News such as that traveled slowly, if at all. We lived without such information and lived well.

[TGIBridays]

On 3/3/2022 at 1:51 PM, kayman said:

The shared right-of-way proposal of the LYNX Silver Line along the LYNX Blue Line right-of-way was foolish.  The number of at-grade crossings in Uptown would double.  The Silver Line needs to be fully grade separated with a dedicated right-of-way for the entire 29-mile route with no at-grade crossings at all.

So I completely misunderstood what you were communicating here when I first read this... for those that are as dense as I am, Steve Harrison had a short report today about the  ULI's report about the Silver Line.  (Article)

Quote

The interline option would bring the Silver Line into uptown, along 12th Street. That’s the same path that’s being considered today.

The city wants the Silver Line to cross the Blue Line with a bridge. The interline option would instead merge the Silver Line onto the Blue Line's tracks. For roughly 1.5 miles, the Silver Line and Blue Line would share the same rails. Once the Silver Line left uptown, it would veer to the north at Carson Street. Then it would continue toward the airport.

It would definitely make connections between the Silver and Blue lines a ton easier. But I would expect this would severely limit the train frequencies for both lines and as you mentioned would add several at grade street crossings to the route. 

[JRCLT]

Those sharp turns are very loud…

I saw a version of it running through Tryon though.

[TGIBridays]

10 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

I saw a version of it running through Tryon though.

Like, on the gold line tracks?  That's truly insanity.