CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[JRCLT]

Well Tryon would be transit only and trains could be coordinated effectively. Not that insane :^)

[kermit]

13 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Well Tryon would be transit only and trains could be coordinated effectively. Not that insane :^)

I think you mean Trade.

CATS won't do it, but honestly a Trade street surface route is not the worst idea for the Silver Line. Close the street to cars, create a dedicated, signal priority route though uptown for the Silver and Gold Lines. This would create useable, hop on, hop off frequency through uptown, serve Gateway station and the employment core. While the surface route would be slow, not many Silver Line riders will be passing through Uptown so the speed is less of a problem (the Blue Line is pretty slow through Uptown as well). 

Not a fan of the Blue-Silver merging through uptown. It concentrates too much transit in Uptown and the Gold Line simply isn't operated in a way that it can (currently) provide useful East-West service through Uptown. If the Blue and Silver are operated properly (trains every 5 minutes at peak) then gates on 7th, 6th, 5th etc. will need to go down for trains every 1 minute and 25 seconds on average, and they stay down for (I dunno) a minute?  This would be awkward. 

[JRCLT]

No Im pretty sure Tryon…not too sure but it was more of a concept. I’ll post it here later if I can find it.

[TGIBridays]

8 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

No Im pretty sure Tryon…not too sure but it was more of a concept. I’ll post it here later if I can find it.

I was definitely thinking of Trade. You'd think after growing up and living 90% of my life here I would be better at road names... But I always manage to get all the roads confused.    

I guess I can see it working if it's transit only, but I'm still a proponent of making the whole thing grade separated. 

[B Randy]

21 minutes ago, TGIBridays said:

I was definitely thinking of Trade. You'd think after growing up and living 90% of my life here I would be better at road names... But I always manage to get all the roads confused.    

I guess I can see it working if it's transit only, but I'm still a proponent of making the whole thing grade separated. 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-flashback-state-street-pedestrian-mall-20191025-cos5svz7w5dvzgznqouu2xqimu-story.html

[orulz]

The interlining option does make the most sense TBH. The Blue Line's route through uptown and south end is the sauce that makes the whole light rail line work. It's a fantastic route. Having a LRT rail route like this through a downtown with full preemption, gates and flashers at every crossing, parallel to, and *two measly blocks* removed from the city's main spine on Tryon? I mean that's basically unheard of. Most cities have to build tunnels to get a route that good. In a big way it's it's shame that only one line uses it for now.

The grade crossings from 5th to 9th are kind of an issue, but are they *that* big of a problem? Who cares about car traffic capacity through there anyway? And if for some reason it turns out that the grade crossings *will* present a problem if train traffic doubles, then just elevate or trench this several-block stretch and call it a day. Not cheap, but still much less than it would cost to build the (obviously inferior) currently planned silver line route along the Brookshire.

The LRT connection to Gateway is a red herring, IMO. Like rail to the airport, a nice feather in the hat, but of peripheral importance (at best!) for actual ridership. If Charlotte ever finally gets around to building commuter rail, the LRT-CRT transfers can happen somewhere else - Like Sugar Creek in the northeast, Archdale or Tyvola in the south, Summit Ave in the west, and so on.

[davidclt]

On 2/26/2022 at 3:35 PM, JeanClt said:

18 Electric Busses are supposed to start trial or be on some routes in March at some point (didn’t get to much details). I don’t know if this was already out there. They are testing battery capacity and how to optimize their use on routes.

I saw one of them on the road at West Blvd and Camden last week clearly running tests (the one I saw was not in CATS-spec silver/blue/black livery and had a large "plug" graphic on the side). Wanted to catch a picture but missed the opportunity. I look forward to 18 electric becoming 180 and 20 articulated electric coaches running on the busiest routes. I also look forward to the complete retirement of their diesel fleet which based on my past rides have grown a bit long in the tooth, a bit worn and unmaintained.

Also saw this on two of the Hybrid Electric buses tonight (but not on a diesel bus, sample size of 3)

[JRCLT]

I saw one of them on the road at West Blvd and Camden last week clearly running tests (the one I saw was not in CATS-spec silver/blue/black livery and had a large "plug" graphic on the side). Wanted to catch a picture but missed the opportunity. I look forward to 18 electric becoming 180 and 20 articulated electric coaches running on the busiest routes. I also look forward to the complete retirement of their diesel fleet which based on my past rides have grown a bit long in the tooth, a bit worn and unmaintained.
Also saw this on two of the Hybrid Electric buses tonight (but not on a diesel bus, sample size of 3)
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_03/image.thumb.png.4a64661682cb278569cd95a8918bc568.png

Wow, thanks for the info! They’re looking forward to that as well. This is only the start I hope.

[southslider]

On 3/10/2022 at 3:20 PM, TGIBridays said:

So I completely misunderstood what you were communicating here when I first read this... for those that are as dense as I am, Steve Harrison had a short report today about the  ULI's report about the Silver Line.  (Article)

It would definitely make connections between the Silver and Blue lines a ton easier. But I would expect this would severely limit the train frequencies for both lines and as you mentioned would add several at grade street crossings to the route. 

Interlining would create 5-minute frequencies within Uptown (9th to Stonewall), which works there, given the slower train speeds.  The Silver Line would have three-car platforms, such that 10-minute frequencies should be quite adequate. The only operating concern is for motorists Uptown at 5th, 6th, and 7th at-grade crossings, but Stonewall, 3rd, and 4th remain wider grade-separated alternative routes.  5th, 6th, and 7th should ideally function more like MLK, 9th, and 10th anyhow.

[orulz]

Interlining would create 5-minute frequencies within Uptown (9th to Stonewall), which works there, given the slower train speeds.  The Silver Line would have three-car platforms, such that 10-minute frequencies should be quite adequate. The only operating concern is for motorists Uptown at 5th, 6th, and 7th at-grade crossings, but Stonewall, 3rd, and 4th remain wider grade-separated alternative routes.  5th, 6th, and 7th should ideally function more like MLK, 9th, and 10th anyhow.

At 5 minutes (= a train in either direction every 2.5 minutes) then the crossings will be probably be open more than half the time, and no worse, in practice, than a traffic light.

IIRC the Blue Line's signal system was designed to accommodate something like 2 or 3-minute frequency? But once you get that frequent, the grade crossings can become a big issue. Can wind up closed for several minutes at a time, which can be quite a bit worse than a typical downtown traffic light.

[tozmervo]

20 minutes ago, orulz said:

At 5 minutes (= a train in either direction every 2.5 minutes) then the crossings will be probably be open more than half the time, and no worse, in practice, than a traffic light.

IIRC the Blue Line's signal system was designed to accommodate something like 2 or 3-minute frequency? But once you get that frequent, the grade crossings can become a big issue. Can wind up closed for several minutes at a time, which can be quite a bit worse than a typical downtown traffic light.

And it's important to note that it closes the crossings to bikes and pedestrians in addition to vehicles. Pedestrians going around light rail gates is already a problem, and this would exacerbate the situation. 

[RANYC]

Saw a post on twitter drawing a distinction between how the community has been engaged on the transformative Comp Plan and subsequent UDO Re-write, and how the community has been engaged on the Transit Plan with an estimated funding cost of $13.5 billion.  Anyone have more info on this?  Was there a similar engagement on the Transit Plan to what's being done on the UDO, or did a small group of appointees publish a package with estimated costs and we're now supposed to see it as a consensus on mobility solutions and vote to raise taxes and issue debt?  Is a transit plan considered too technical for broad-based political engagement and feedback, whereas a zoning rewrite  is more accessible for the masses?

Edited March 14, 2022 by RANYC

[kermit]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Saw a post on twitter drawing a distinction between how the community has been engaged on the transformative Comp Plan and subsequent UDO Re-write, and how the community has been engaged on the Transit Plan with an estimated funding cost of $13.5 billion.  Anyone have more info on this?  Was there a similar engagement on the Transit Plan to what's being done on the UDO, or did a small group of appointees publish a package with estimated costs and we're now supposed to see it as a consensus on mobility solutions and vote to raise taxes and issue debt?  Is a transit plan considered too technical for broad-based political engagement and feedback, whereas a zoning rewrite  is more accessible for the masses?

While I can't really speak to the details of public feedback on the transit plan, I will say that transit plans are tough to get good and fair public feedback on. Most folks who look at a transit plan and does not see a rail station exactly 1/4 mile from their front door are gonna be ticked off and say that it is a lousy plan. This presents an untenable situation for the planners since they clearly can't run transit anywhere, and should not run transit to places with insufficient density -- there is no way to revise a transit plan based on this sort of public feedback ("this plan sucks because it won't take me from Raintree to the airport twice per year in a one seat ride that is faster than I can drive it").  I remember some public engagement with the Silver Line routing, the options for public feedback were more of the tweaking variety rather than of the "this is a good/bad plan" variety.

OTOH the UDO has impacts everywhere, so people's responses about how the plan effects them are useful pieces of data and there are probably some aspects of the UDO that can be reasonably modified in response to the public feedback.

Edited March 14, 2022 by kermit

[TGIBridays]

1 hour ago, orulz said:

IIRC the Blue Line's signal system was designed to accommodate something like 2 or 3-minute frequency?.

From one of the public meetings on the Silver Line they said they were going to design the signaling to accommodate 7.5 min frequencies at best.  So I kind of doubt the Blue Line was designed to 2 or 3 min frequencies. From my limited understanding, you'd really need it to be completely grade separated to get it down that low.  I could be wrong though.

[davidclt]

On 3/11/2022 at 7:34 AM, JeanClt said:

Wow, thanks for the info! They’re looking forward to that as well. This is only the start I hope.

CATS is now routinely running tests from South to East/West. This one had 99 HUNTERSVILLE on the route boards.

[ajfunder]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:32 PM, TGIBridays said:

From one of the public meetings on the Silver Line they said they were going to design the signaling to accommodate 7.5 min frequencies at best.  So I kind of doubt the Blue Line was designed to 2 or 3 min frequencies. From my limited understanding, you'd really need it to be completely grade separated to get it down that low.  I could be wrong though.

 

On 3/14/2022 at 1:32 PM, TGIBridays said:

From one of the public meetings on the Silver Line they said they were going to design the signaling to accommodate 7.5 min frequencies at best.  So I kind of doubt the Blue Line was designed to 2 or 3 min frequencies. From my limited understanding, you'd really need it to be completely grade separated to get it down that low.  I could be wrong though.

Respectfully, plenty of systems run at much higher frequencies at grade through downtown cores. RTD in Denver runs 4 light rail lines at grade in its downtown loop and the city functions just fine. The Blue Line is even more separated then the RTD loop as the RTD one runs in dedicated lane along traffic lanes. RTD also run 4 car trains.

Sub 5 minute headways spread across 2 lines should be easily doable through Uptown, especially considering half of the intersections, and busiest (3rd/4th, Stonewall, Moorehead) are grade separated). 5th and 6th are the big question marks but a second light rail line shouldn’t be that big of a deal unless the city is prioritizing automobile velocity through downtown instead of traffic calming (which knowing Charlotte DOT tendencies wouldn’t be shocking).

Edited March 18, 2022 by ajfunder

[ajfunder]

Portland is another city that has two lines and 3 lines each on two alignments on surface streets through downtown and it functions just fine. 
 

I truly wonder why CATS hasn’t further considered 3rd/4th or 5th/6th directional pair through Uptown or heck a 4th and 5th pair with the streetcar on Trade making more local/intermediate stops down the middle. That way you can serve CGS, Trade/Tryon, CTC, and 1st/2nd Ward and avoid a bridge and a tunnel through Uptown.
 

Edited March 18, 2022 by ajfunder

[JRCLT]

CATS is now routinely running tests from South to East/West. This one had 99 HUNTERSVILLE on the route boards.
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_03/IMG_20220317_212140.thumb.jpg.059518254a926efe6abfca64079010ce.jpg

That’s amazing!!!

[ajfunder]

A few random doodles cause its Friday and the office is slow right now lol. These should be perfectly feasible based on other LRT systems I have seen in urban cores. The hard rights could be addressed with some engineering creativity/wide turns/lane shifts. All it takes is Charlotte having the will to give up two lanes on what I personally believe are overbuilt streets.

3rd/4th 

 

5th/6th. Would require diamond/level crossings of the Blue Line

 

4th/5th. Level Diamond Crossing at 5th with BLE

 

Basic Inspiration Dump. It's light rail, there is no need to build expensive bridges or tunnels with a little ingenuity.  Blend with the existing urban landscape.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GfakRCT7IJQ/UAA7VnbjraI/AAAAAAAAAKw/Ji30dSPi7vk/s1600/16th_California-06x.JPG

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by ajfunder

[JRCLT]

Now imagine pitching that to CDOT… that fears giving the Gold line preemption would cause considerable disruption of uptown traffics flow.

(FYI: I don’t disagree since it would help in terms of cost as well since it would be at grade and also more accessible in that area not being on pillars also bringing transfers at an easier to reach location and actually stopping within uptown and not right next to an interstate…I just want to bring to the attention of others CATS has no control over roads and for that reason it can’t do much about things in terms of the road aspects band traffic lights. They’d have to negotiate between other government departments.)

Also for those who want CATS as a separate entity no one has yet explained why that would be better. In my head it seems it would make things HARDER for CATS since being part of the city I think gives them more leverage versus being a separate entity in negotiations with other departments and sorting out kinks and issues versus being at the mercy of the city as a separate agency. I’m sure there are limitations as well as for staying as a department of the city and that is what I’m trying to understand. How would becoming a separate agency from the city help CATS do what it does now better?

[DMann]

Does anyone think that the move of office space towards Stonewall away from Trade should be a more important consideration.  A 5 block walk from Trade Street to Duke, Ally, Honeywell, BOAT, USBank, Wells Fargo seems like a lot.  Run it down MLK Jr. Blvd.  I think if it came down McDowell then up MLK and though the tunnel already under the rail line it would spur significant development along those streets. 

[davidclt]

6 hours ago, JeanClt said:

CATS as a separate entity no one has yet explained why that would be better. . .  How would becoming a separate agency from the city help CATS do what it does now better?

We need a transportation agency that exceeds the bounds of the City of Charlotte. We need an organization with a regional charter and a regional mission to unify and harmonize transit across Mecklenburg, Cabarrus, Iredell, Gaston (maybe Lincoln and Cleveland too). Union, and York (maybe Lancaster too) counties to think about solving transportation challenges for the region, not just the City of Charlotte with a nod to the other municipalities in the county. We need to begin to take transit seriously and make it the service of first choice throughout the region - make it so good you'd be dumb not to choose it for 75% of your trips in the region for those you can't do biking or walking. "If we build it, they will come."

[RANYC]

27 minutes ago, davidclt said:

We need a transportation agency that exceeds the bounds of the City of Charlotte. We need an organization with a regional charter and a regional mission to unify and harmonize transit across Mecklenburg, Cabarrus, Iredell, Gaston (maybe Lincoln and Cleveland too). Union, and York (maybe Lancaster too) counties to think about solving transportation challenges for the region, not just the City of Charlotte with a nod to the other municipalities in the county. We need to begin to take transit seriously and make it the service of first choice throughout the region - make it so good you'd be dumb not to choose it for 75% of your trips in the region for those you can't do biking or walking. "If we build it, they will come."

Are you advocating to dissolve CATS and transit bodies in these other places (like Concord Kannapolis Area Transit) and replace it with a Regional Authority?  To expand existing CATS with a regional scope and regional funding sources, and just dissolve the other small transit bodies throughout the region?  Or to add a new bureaucracy with regional coverage and regional transportation assets which would operate alongside the other existing yet smaller bureaucracies? 

Is your goal that 75% of all trips by residents in the 4-6 county area that you named above take place with transit?

Do you think regional transit planning and implementation can work without regionally-aligned land-use, zoning, and transit-oriented development all interlocked and considered as a unified whole?  

Edited March 19, 2022 by RANYC

[southslider]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:55 AM, DMann said:

Does anyone think that the move of office space towards Stonewall away from Trade should be a more important consideration.  A 5 block walk from Trade Street to Duke, Ally, Honeywell, BOAT, USBank, Wells Fargo seems like a lot.  Run it down MLK Jr. Blvd.  I think if it came down McDowell then up MLK and though the tunnel already under the rail line it would spur significant development along those streets. 

Yet another reason the existing Blue Line between 11th and Carson makes the most sense for Silver Line routing within Uptown.

[CLT2014]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:29 PM, davidclt said:

We need a transportation agency that exceeds the bounds of the City of Charlotte. We need an organization with a regional charter and a regional mission to unify and harmonize transit across Mecklenburg, Cabarrus, Iredell, Gaston (maybe Lincoln and Cleveland too). Union, and York (maybe Lancaster too) counties to think about solving transportation challenges for the region, not just the City of Charlotte with a nod to the other municipalities in the county. We need to begin to take transit seriously and make it the service of first choice throughout the region - make it so good you'd be dumb not to choose it for 75% of your trips in the region for those you can't do biking or walking. "If we build it, they will come."

The political downside to a regional transit agency is the counties surrounding Mecklenburg tend to believe in small government, low taxes, and are politically conservative. Mecklenburg County was the ONLY county in the metro area that was not majority Trump in 2020 and the other counties collectively have 1.5 million people versus 1.1 in Meck. A transit system focused on Charlotte would certainly become a political hot topic, in-fighting would occur, and we probably wouldn't see the type of expenditures many of us would like to see happen because the majority of the surrounding towns are ANTI-tax. The elected representatives in the state legislature from many of our neighboring counties have actively spoken AGAINST public transit and they get elected again and again.

The surrounding counties aren't even expanding roads very much and in South Carolina they don't even fix potholes in order to keep taxes low.... they definitely aren't spending billions of dollars for bankers to commute to work Uptown.... so in summary, if we put a tax increase on the ballot for the ENTIRE metro, I think it would fail miserably. The only shot at success is having the most pro-transit residents in Mecklenburg be the ones voting for a tax increase. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by CLT2014